Cruising Northern BC,bears & guns

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I believe in the concept if you are going to take a gun for protection...don't be the guy bringing a knife to a gunfight.

You were a Coast Guard helicopter pilot, right? I'm wondering if the context of your training was different than what most people would need to know about bears.

If you intend to land near a crash site, where there might have been fatalities that a bear had claimed and been feeding on, or where people might have been grievously injured and whose wounds had attracted bears, then a gun is the first thing I'd be grabbing. I'd want at least three guys with guns!

People killed by cows every year: 20

People killed by horses every year: 20

https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/animals-that-are-deadlier-than-sharks/
 
It seems that very few people are killed by bears each year but what we don’t know is how many people successfully defend themselves from bears with bear spray or guns. That might be a fairly high number as it seems common for people to go armed in bear country. Murray posted that cows kill 20 people per year but I’m willing to bet none of them were carrying Cow Spray.
 
Not at all...the same survival training and advice from fish and game was to non air crews...in fact it was the same for families...women and children.


Bears don't know the difference...an attack is an attack.


While I agree understanding bear habits is the most important to avoid situations...when it happens...like war....losing is not my option. That may be the military angle you are getting from me...but I wouldn't want to protect my wife and kids with minimal when it is just as easy to carry maximum firepower.


My real point was if you carry, think about what the outcome would be.


I didn't always carry a long gun, but I always had a 357 Magnum as last resort. It would only be effective if the bear already had me...but it did give me a better chance than a good right hook. While fishing....sure 99% of the time you could back away....so that was my choice to carry. If in a position where myself or family was being charged by an irate bear, I didn't want a gun that "might" disable them...I wanted something that could stop a charging elephant.


Plus there is a huge difference between a 300 pound yearling or black bear and a 1000 pound Kodiak. Know thine enemy.
 
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If the protection of wife and kids was paramount, then living in the bush would be much safer than with 320 million people where guns are easily purchased. Just sayin' :socool:

In other words, I'd rather set my tent up in the wilderness than in a big city back alley.
 
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Gimme a break....


All I am saying is if you THINK you need protection..... bring the right tool.


Like ANY repair or prevention discussion on TF....sure have a second engine when your one quits, have a life raft if too rough to survive in your dingy when you sink, sure have an EPIRB over flares....


If you wanna stop a charging bear which is a rare occurance...have a 300 Win Mag or bigger...not spray or a shotgun that may or may not work (but of course having nerves of steel and being a great shot helps too.... :))
 
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Gimme a break...

Ya...that was a cheap shot.

I'll agree with you though, that being a great shot is key. Most people aren't.

Statistics show that bear spray is over 90% effective against black bears, 98% effective against Grizzlies, and surprisingly, 100% effective against Polar Bears. Those are good odds.

It's my experience that fishermen (who don't take their catch to their vehicles right away or give up good fishing spots) and hunters (who are sneaking around in the bush and surprising bears) have the worst encounters.

Went to a presentation from a retired bear biologist in the Smithers BC area a couple weeks ago which was very informative. He helped design a program for fishermen and bears on the Babine River, a tributary of the Skeena which is the only place on Earth besides the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia where Grizzlies can have four cubs.

It was crazy, seeing photos of fishermen and Grizzlies lining both sides of the river.
 
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Another thing that causes me concern is how someone carrying a gun might be over confident and proceed into areas or situations where they might not otherwise, like a boat with paravanes heading out when they probably shouldn't.
 
Self defense is a concept, preparation, training, experience and execution....just like survival in general.


Do it half a**ed and you get what you get.
 
Back in the late '70s or early '80s (as I remember) Alaska Fish and Game published results from a study they did about how best to arm Alaska's various patrol and logging people to protect against bears (emphasis on brown bears, IIRC). The study was not focused on "hunting" bears, where shooting is often voluntary (so to speak), but rather about defense, where shooting as a last resort would mostly be the charging bear's choice.

They took into account effectiveness of various cartridges and also a wide range of personnel stature (recoil), the latter especially important for smaller men and women in their workforce.

The short version was that rounds like the .460 Weatherby Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum, .45-70 Government, and 12-gauges shotgun slugs topped the list. The latter two being semi-surprising since they didn't immediately correspond to then-common lore about kinetic energy of mega-bullets launched at mega-speeds, but the eventual explanation (theory) is that a big fat hunk of lead at moderate velocity does penetrate pretty well. And the extra recoil associated with something like a .460 Wby wasn't useful. And many of their study participants could lay down faster aimed fire with a lever-action rifle (.45-70) and a pump shotgun (12-gauge)... compared to bolt-action rifles (.460, .375, etc.).

The .30-'06 was pretty far down the list of acceptable cartridges -- in the grand scheme of things rifle, it's not huge anyway -- but they also found (acknowledged) that aimed fire from a .30-'06 or similar would be more effective than poorly- (or non-) aimed fire from a cannon.

I don't remember if they tested with semi-auto firearms; at the time where weren't many that would fire seriously high power rounds. Limited choices were maybe the Browning semi-auto in maybe .300 Win Mag, and several semi-auto 12-gauge shotguns... but I just can't remember about that off-hand. (I have the summary, from Rifle Magazine, somewhere... but haven't found it yet today).

No handguns were recommended, but they also found (acknowledged) a .44 Remington Magnum in a holster on the body... was maybe better than that big ol' firestick leaning against a tree over there somewhere. Some of that discussion was about protection versus primary job; it's apparently difficult to chop down trees with a rifle slung over one's shoulder... and if it's slung, a rifle is about as fast as molasses anyway. This was before more recent heavier handguns rounds (.460 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .500 S&W, etc.) began to emerge, although maybe the .454 Casull existed at the time.

Anyway, the 12-gauge pump shotgun with slugs fared pretty well in their testing. I don't remember any mention of bear spray; can't even remember when bear spray came into existence...

-Chris
 
Quick bear story...

My daughter and I hike into the Seven Sisters Mountain Range on the Skeena River each summer. It's a 17km (10 mile) hike to reach alpine. The lower slopes are lush with greenery, with lots of black bear crap everywhere. This is where the stick whacking really worked, as we'd hear things crunching through the bush moving away from us, but never saw anything.

Our tent was pitched beside a small subalpine tarn and we'd just slipped into our sleeping bags for the night when there was a loud CRACK! about 100' away on the forested slope on the other side of the tarn.

My guess is it was a dry branch about as thick as my wrist breaking, and whatever broke it was so big it didn't care who heard, so I'm 99% sure it was a Grizzly. We got dressed, put boots on, and I strolled to the edge of the tarn and spoke softly to the bear for a couple minutes.

We never heard anything else, but I slept with bear spray beside my pillow.

This summer, instead of just the two of us, I think we'll hike with a group. It was an entirely different experience being with my daughter, as opposed to being with a buddy or being solo. Spooky.

Here's a photo of the Seven Sisters...anywhere else it would probably be famous, but around here it's just another beautiful scene:
 

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We do lot of hiking in BC, not so much in AK do to the lesser amount of logging roads. The pebble in the beer can used to be our noise maker of choice & we saw quite a few bears, both black & a few brown. We have now switched to the hand pump air horn or the Attwood Bellow
https://www.amazon.com/attwood-2460...ocphy=9029376&hvtargid=pla-568663143540&psc=1
& now see virtually no bears.
Another thing that we carry is a Tru Flare Bear Banger
https://www.mec.ca/en/product/4007-144/Bear-Bangers
available in Canada but have never had to use it.

Murray, is there public ground transportation from Rupert or Kitimat to the 3 Sisters?
 
Murray, is there public ground transportation from Rupert or Kitimat to the 3 Sisters?

Here's information and a link to the Oliver Creek Trail, which is the one we take. In the photo, it goes to the opposite (south) side of the range, to between the third and fourth peaks from the right. People rope up for exposed scrambling to the top, but we're happy just to scoot around in the alpine and take in hanging glaciers from the ridge lines.

Oliver Creek Trail is 17 km long and climbs 1500 metres over its entire length, passing through wide a variety of forest types and ending in a spectacular alpine basin. It is ideal for overnight backpacking trips, connecting with both Flint Creek and Coyote Creek roads. Provides access to alpine hiking and the Seven Sisters peaks.

Access: The trailhead is located at a gravel pit on Hwy 16, about 6 km north of Oliver Creek.

Highway 16 turn-off location: 50.5 km (north) from the four way stop (Hwy 16 and 37 junction) in Terrace, 40.2 km (south) from the Kitwanga Junction (Petro-Canada gas station).

Ministry of Environment - Recreation - Seven Sisters Provincial Park

There's no public transport from Kitimat, and Greyhound stopped running up here a while back. There's a new bus service linked below. You should be able to get them to stop at the trail head which starts right beside the highway at a Highways Dept gravel storage tent. The trail is actually an old narrow access road for a small exploratory mine some 60 years ago.

Tip: 1st third sucks (steep), 2nd third flat (can be wet), final third regular hiking. They suggest overnight, but three days or more is better.

https://bcbus.ca
 
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Chris.. the word I got about 12 ga shotgun slugs was they were effective on smaller bears but on a larger charging bear, it may not even penetrate all the skin and fat to break a bone. Maybe, maybe not.



If not, now you have a pissed off wounded bear coming at you. They hoped the next round of buckshot would blind then and get enough blood in their nostrils to affect their sense of smell. Again, not a guaranteed outcome.


That was the reason the shotgun was not considered a good defense weapon by the experts in my circles.
 
Only need a .22 pistol. Shoot your hiking companion in the leg so you can out run your companion and the bear.
 
Only need a .22 pistol. Shoot your hiking companion in the leg so you can out run your companion and the bear.

Bad plan. Any smart bear would see one is wounded, chase you down, then get the slow one for a double snack :thumb:

I get to hear lots of bear stories as I walk my letter carrier route:

Dude takes dog for walk by river. Doge chases black bear. Black bear chases dog. Dog runs to owner for help. Dude climbs tree. Dog attacks black bear. Black bear climbs same tree as Dude. Dude’s wife wonders why Dude didn’t turn up for dinner. Dude’s wife goes to river and finds dog at base of tree, then black bear and Dude in tree. Dude’s wife takes dog away. Black bear relaxes and goes away. Dude finally goes home.

Three guys go moose hunting with canoe access. Bag their moose and hang it in camp before taking off at first light. Grizzly dramatically claims moose at dusk. All three guys take off at a run to the canoe. Two make it and wonder, what happened to Bob? Bob ran at full speed into a large spruce tree at the edge of camp in the dark and knocked himself out. Luckily, the bear was only hungry for moose.
 
You were a Coast Guard helicopter pilot, right? I'm wondering if the context of your training was different than what most people would need to know about bears.

If you intend to land near a crash site, where there might have been fatalities that a bear had claimed and been feeding on, or where people might have been grievously injured and whose wounds had attracted bears, then a gun is the first thing I'd be grabbing. I'd want at least three guys with guns!

People killed by cows every year: 20

People killed by horses every year: 20

https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/animals-that-are-deadlier-than-sharks/




Got to love these kind of statistics... about as relevant as how many die each year choking on hot dogs?... none of these statistics matter


The death by horses and cows are accidents.. last time I checked nobody has ever been eaten by a horse or cow.. bears we are talking about EAT people.



This isn't a "gun debate" this is a safety issue. We all have gear we carry for "safety" that we all hope to never use.. but on the other hand if the time comes that the safety gear, in what ever form it takes is needed I would feel like a dumb ass if I found my self wishing I had said gear at hand.



HOLLYWOOD
 
The death by horses and cows are accidents.. last time I checked nobody has ever been eaten by a horse or cow.. bears we are talking about EAT people.

Who cares if they eat you or not, you're dead.

My sister lives in Telkwa BC and her neighbour runs a guiding business near the Spatsizi Plateau. We visited their place and about 20 of their mountain pack horses came running up and surrounded us...big beasts with long hair on their feet...talk about feeling vulnerable. A bit of a spat ensued and one tried kicking another one in the head. Lucky for us, they calmed down right away. Almost made the killed by horse statistics!
 
Bear Bangers - Bears are known to attack hunters after hearing a shot. They've learned to associate a gunshot with fresh meat.

Pit Bull attacks in 2018 in the US and Canada. In the first 8.5 months there were 23 deaths. I'd say there were fewer bear attacks with fewer fatalities.
 

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Bear Bangers - Bears are known to attack hunters after hearing a shot. They've learned to associate a gunshot with fresh meat.

Pit Bull attacks in 2018 in the US and Canada. In the first 8.5 months there were 23 deaths. I'd say there were fewer bear attacks with fewer fatalities.

Luckily the county I live in outlawed Pitbulls.
 
Chris.. the word I got about 12 ga shotgun slugs was they were effective on smaller bears but on a larger charging bear, it may not even penetrate all the skin and fat to break a bone. Maybe, maybe not.

If not, now you have a pissed off wounded bear coming at you. They hoped the next round of buckshot would blind then and get enough blood in their nostrils to affect their sense of smell. Again, not a guaranteed outcome.

That was the reason the shotgun was not considered a good defense weapon by the experts in my circles.


Dunno, no personal experience... and don't want some! :)

I remember the AF&G study was about protection from all bears though, and in the grand scheme of things they have more browns and grizzlies than PA or Maine have...

And they did take into account who can shoot what (firearm) effectively. Typical studies back them might have measured penetration, called the winner with the most depth in pine boards (or whatever) good... except some people just can't shoot a .473 Mega-Blaster (or whatever) all that well... or more than once...

-Chris
 
Who cares if they eat you or not, you're dead.

My sister lives in Telkwa BC and her neighbour runs a guiding business near the Spatsizi Plateau. We visited their place and about 20 of their mountain pack horses came running up and surrounded us...big beasts with long hair on their feet...talk about feeling vulnerable. A bit of a spat ensued and one tried kicking another one in the head. Lucky for us, they calmed down right away. Almost made the killed by horse statistics!


So what percentage of people actually deal with horses/cows up close and personal vs up close and personal with bears? Probably 100,000 to 1.. might be actually higher. I believe that a up close and personal encounter with Mr Ed or Bessy vs Smokey the bear will end much better.


It's like the statistic that shows you are more likely to be bitten by a Labrador retriever than a Pit bull... its because there are many more people up close and personal with Labs on a daily basis than Pits.


HOLLYWOOD
 
Chris.. the word I got about 12 ga shotgun slugs was they were effective on smaller bears but on a larger charging bear, it may not even penetrate all the skin and fat to break a bone. Maybe, maybe not.



If not, now you have a pissed off wounded bear coming at you. They hoped the next round of buckshot would blind then and get enough blood in their nostrils to affect their sense of smell. Again, not a guaranteed outcome.


That was the reason the shotgun was not considered a good defense weapon by the experts in my circles.


I have no direct experience shooting bears, but have read up a bunch on it in anticipation of cruising in brown and polar bear country.


First, big difference between the bears. Black bears are much smaller, so just because something will work on a black bear, don't think it will on one of the larger bears.


Second, with the exception of polar bears, they will do all they can to avoid you. Encounters happen because both you and the bear failed to detect the other. Making noise is your best defense.


Third, bears acclimated to humans, or worse, who have gotten a taste of human food and garbage, are the dangerous ones. Because they have a taste, the seek out rather than avoid humans - not because they want to eat the humans, but because they are a marker for food and garbage. This leads to encounters that would otherwise be actively avoided by the bears. In the park systems, the bears that have to be killed are inevitably the ones that have become acclimated to humans.


Fourth, unlike other bears who will avoid you, polar bears will hunt you. You are food to them, with no special training required. This is why carrying a rifle is mandatory in many areas where there are polar bears.


Svalbard is one example location where there are a lot of polar bears, and where it's illegal to NOT carry a high powered rifle. Their guidelines are quite interesting to read, and echo what psneeld has said. Shotguns are unacceptable, period. Same with hand guns, no matter how Dirty-Harry it is. And only the most powerful rifles are accepted. Apparently you need BOTH a big charge with a lot of power, AND a smaller caliber bullet to concentrate the energy enough to actually penetrate. Things like shotgun slugs and lower powered rifles will literally bounce off the skull. I seem to recall that a 30-06 was marginally acceptable.



Although the rifle carry laws are for polar bears, the anatomy and size of brown bears, especially coastal brown bears, are similar to polar bears. So I think it's reasonable to apply the same fire arms guidelines. But unless you are in polar bear territory, I think a set of bells, chitter chatter, and bear spray are a much better solution.
 
If you decide to take a gun into Canada and do it legally there is one other consideration. What happens if you shoot a bear? When I was in grad school at the University of Alberta I had a friend doing research in the arctic. He had a high powered rifle in camp in case of polar bear attacks. After three years up there they had a polar bear come into their camp and he shot it. Despite calling in immediately to the appropriate authorities, who came to the camp by helicopter and verified that the bear was actually in a tent (or what was left of a tent after the bear decided to go inside) when it was shot, my friend had literally years of trouble with the RCMP and federal and territorial fish and wildlife after the bear shooting. It was bad enough that he couldn't get a permit to go back to the arctic for a couple of years and then was not allowed to have a gun in camp.
 
I get the statistics, but just like people get excited they might actually win the lottery next time they buy a ticket, being killed by a bear is a pretty remote possibility...like being killed by a shark is a remote possibility but is so spectacularly awful the mind lingers on potential details and makes for attention grabbing news. Don't get me wrong, I have full respect for the beasts and avoid them and their seasonal habitats as best I can, but it doesn't stop me from wandering around the in bush when we anchor.

As a letter carrier I'm more concerned about the pit bull stats posted earlier, and my route parallels a salmon spawning stream where I've seen grizzly crap on the road so fresh there was juice running out and flies hadn't found it yet. (I snap the elastic band on the bundle of letters I carry to make the branch snapping sound...worked on a guy one day who scooted into his house because he thought a bear was coming into his yard, so it works on people too).

I got attacked by two big pit bulls once on my route. They came at me full blast; no hesitation, no stopping to put on a show of aggression and were about 30' apart. I was worried about what might happen if one got behind me and they started working as a team to take me down, so the pepper spray came out.

I sprayed the first one and it just stopped, stared me in the eyes for about a second without flinching, blinking, coughing, or wheezing, then turned around and trotted home. When I sprayed the second one it wheeled instantly and was off like a shot, as dogs normally do.

That first pit bull was the gnarliest, toughest dog I've ever seen to not even show the slightest response, other than stopping its attack, to getting a full shot of pepper spray in the face. Yup, pit bulls concern me more!
 
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QUOTE=TDunn;757256]If you decide to take a gun into Canada and do it legally there is one other consideration. What happens if you shoot a bear? When I was in grad school at the University of Alberta I had a friend doing research in the arctic. He had a high powered rifle in camp in case of polar bear attacks. After three years up there they had a polar bear come into their camp and he shot it. Despite calling in immediately to the appropriate authorities, who came to the camp by helicopter and verified that the bear was actually in a tent (or what was left of a tent after the bear decided to go inside) when it was shot, my friend had literally years of trouble with the RCMP and federal and territorial fish and wildlife after the bear shooting. It was bad enough that he couldn't get a permit to go back to the arctic for a couple of years and then was not allowed to have a gun in camp.[/QUOTE]


I guess better dead than years trouble with RCMP. :)
Plus that's one story like everyone has.
I an guessing there are proceedures that if followed (generally) avoid that trouble....there were, can't say for sure now.


From Alaskan F&G website

"These may be brought temporarily into Canada for sporting or hunting use during hunting season, use in competitions, in-transit movement through Canada, or personal protection against wildlife in remote areas of Canada. Anyone wishing to bring hunting rifles into Canada must be at least 18 years old; properly store the firearm for transport; and follow the declaration requirements."
 
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Bear Bangers - Bears are known to attack hunters after hearing a shot. They've learned to associate a gunshot with fresh meat.

Pit Bull attacks in 2018 in the US and Canada. In the first 8.5 months there were 23 deaths. I'd say there were fewer bear attacks with fewer fatalities.

Considering how many times we had too shoot pit bulls for self protection in my job, that statistic is not that comforting.

And, my brother, A CPA, was forced to shoot one in his yard last year in self defense.

Statistics are great, until you become one. Most people never have heart attacks. But, who would be willing to sign away their right to a defibrillator based on those odds?
 
I have a correction to make. I miss-remembered the Svalbard guidelines.


Recommendations is for a rifle with a minimum of a .308 or 30-06 with expanding bullets. But that's a bit moot since they also specify the minimum bullet mass and impact energy at 100m. None of the 308 loads meet the requirement, and only one of the 30-06 loads meets it. 375 H&H is what you need.



A shotgun is a second choice, but must have capacity for at least 4 shots, and you need to use rifled slugs. By implication, it will take all 4 slugs to stop the bear.


Handguns are also allowed, but not encouraged. Again minimum specs are provided, including .44 as the minimum caliber. Only the very largest 44 Remington magnum load meets the spec. None of the 45s meet the requirement. A 480 Ruger or a 500 S&W would do.


In other words, bring a cannon, or stay away from the bears.
 
I've had plenty of experience with black bear in the back country. They don't worry me. (altogether different with bears that have been habituated to the presence of humans).


From a boat, I won't beach a dinghy where a bear is. When hiking from the dinghy, I just make sure that I make a lot of vocal noise, "hey bear!" etc... I may look foolish hollering "hey bear!" but since no one else is around to hear me I don't really care. Bears in the wild don't want my company and will likely have moved off before I know there are there.


When I have encountered black bear, it is just a matter of talking quietly as I move in the opposite direction that they are. Not an issue.
 
Handguns are also allowed, but not encouraged. Again minimum specs are provided, including .44 as the minimum caliber. Only the very largest 44 Remington magnum load meets the spec. None of the 45s meet the requirement. A 480 Ruger or a 500 S&W would do.

In other words, bring a cannon, or stay away from the bears.

TT, I keep a revolver in SE AK, stored with a FFL friend. This arrangement eliminates the need of shipping it up there each summer and it never enters Canada. The gun is a Ruger .44 magnum, but its primary role is to dispatch big halibut with .44 special loads, much tamer than magnum rounds. I do carry this gun on shore in a chest holster if there are bears in the area, especially with cubs. For these forays, I use .44 magnum heavy loads with 305 grain hardcast slugs. These are punishing to shoot, but if the chips are down, I won't notice. This round was recommended to me by a guide friend in Idaho, where there are plenty of both black and brown bears.
 

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