Survey Says. Questions?

So I have finally found a boat pending survey. This may sound like I am cheap but I have been through one unsuccessful survey already. So the boat in question has twin diesels. I am having the boat surveyed and the engines surveyed as well. Engine surveyor want to do it at the same time. What if the boat surveyor finds something wrong which will negate the sale? I will be stuck paying for 2 surveys? Would it be better have the done separately?

"Would it be better have the done separately?"
It could be more economical to do the mech one after a hull survey is complete if you choose not to proceed but it depends some on the logistics as well.
Prior to ay survey I would be as sure as possible about the boats history, mechanical maintenance, the ownership trail and ability of the 'owner' to sell, and an exact list of what transfers with the sale.
I see you are in Pt Jeff - one of first purchased used boats was at OldMans Boatyard there.
Good luck with the purchase.

I do engine surveys as part of my business. Yes, if hull surveyor finds a deal killer, you still owe the engine surveyor. If this happens and my services are no longer needed, I will not bill for the whole thing, but I will still bill for a portion, what ever seems fair. But engine surveyor may be a stickler and demand the contracted amount you agreed to. But that would be a bit of "dick" move.

Edit: I too like doing my part on the same day as hull. We often form a bit of a team and I think the quality of the job with us working together is better than if done separately. Have done it separately also, but that means boat leaves the dock twice with all that entails. I like seeing the running gear out of the water, too.

That's what happened to the last boat, after two hours the surveyor looked at me and said do you want me to continue or just pay for my time. I paid him $200 and off he went. I also have a haul out scheduled, engine surveyor required to have the boat out of the water?

I want the boat hauled so I can be absolutely certain the bottom and running gear are clean and not damaged. Otherwise, the engine data I take may not be any good. A diver cleaned bottom might not be that clean!! And I get low rpm numbers because of a sloppy diver. Turns into a mess.

You say you have been through an "unsuccessful" survey. I would argue that there is no such thing as an unsuccessful survey, and you may be looking at this wrong.


The previous survey told you something that you didn't know about the boat. That is the whole point of a survey. The survey was very successful, in that it prevented you from making a very expensive mistake. A mistake that would have probably cost far, FAR more than the survey did.


Do a thorough inspection of the boat yourself, to make sure that it is even worth the cost of a survey, and then think of the survey as insurance -- spending a little to be sure that you don't make a very costly mistake.


Good luck to you.

denverd0n said:

You say you have been through an "unsuccessful" survey. I would argue that there is no such thing as an unsuccessful survey, and you may be looking at this wrong.


The previous survey told you something that you didn't know about the boat. That is the whole point of a survey. The survey was very successful, in that it prevented you from making a very expensive mistake. A mistake that would have probably cost far, FAR more than the survey did.


Do a thorough inspection of the boat yourself, to make sure that it is even worth the cost of a survey, and then think of the survey as insurance -- spending a little to be sure that you don't make a very costly mistake.


Good luck to you.

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I agree.

Better to find out during the survey than find a $20K defect. You may want to re-evaluate your position.

I agree as well, I was just saying why do an engine survey if the boat doesn’t pass the survey. But I guess it makes no sense to pay for two haul outs.

larman said:

I agree as well, I was just saying why do an engine survey if the boat doesn’t pass the survey. But I guess it makes no sense to pay for two haul outs.

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Like I mentioned - it depends upon the logistics.
If your present for your hull survey and haul out then the condition of the bottom and running gear will be clearly known.
If present and the hull surveyor finds a significant issue early on you can decide if you want to continue. If the mechanical survey is scheduled for a week later and there is no reason to perform it then why do it?

smitty477 said:

Like I mentioned - it depends upon the logistics.
If your present for your hull survey and haul out then the condition of the bottom and running gear will be clearly known.
If present and the hull surveyor finds a significant issue early on you can decide if you want to continue. If the mechanical survey is scheduled for a week later and there is no reason to perform it then why do it?

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Engine Surveyor wants to come same day and he will be their before boat surveyor. Does he need to see prop shafts etc in the course of his engine survey?

Do the hull survey and haul out first. Take video to show the engine surveyor of the running gear and bottom. The engine guy is a must for the sea trial, he should also do the gen set. Hull guy should come if he feels it is necessary. This is not a place to cut corners.

When I am buying a boat I spend at least 4 hours and preferably a whole day looking and digging around on my own before the survey. I pretty much know how the survey will go before it happens. The last surveyor asked me why I am not a surveyor since I told him almost everything he found before he did the survey. So I would look the boat over by yourself first before the survey and you may save the cost of a survey if the boat is a dog.

If you want to get screwed, tell your surveyors how to do their job. If your engine guy wants to be there for the boat haul out then I doubt pictures will be acceptable. The hull surveyor is going to sea trial the boat. The seller might not be too keen on two sea trials.

I am curious what the surveyor found on the last boat. I have only once seen a boat that failed survey. Serious bottom blisters were found when the boat was hauled out. Almost everything else can be repaired by the seller.

I understand, but

Ski in NC said:

I do engine surveys as part of my business. Yes, if hull surveyor finds a deal killer, you still owe the engine surveyor. If this happens and my services are no longer needed, I will not bill for the whole thing, but I will still bill for a portion, what ever seems fair. But engine surveyor may be a stickler and demand the contracted amount you agreed to. But that would be a bit of "dick" move.

Edit: I too like doing my part on the same day as hull. We often form a bit of a team and I think the quality of the job with us working together is better than if done separately. Have done it separately also, but that means boat leaves the dock twice with all that entails. I like seeing the running gear out of the water, too.

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I like to be looking over the surveyor’s shoulder so that when something is found, I am right there seeing what he is seeing. I found when I surveyed my current boat, the engine and Hull were being surveyed at the same time, and I had a difficult time figuring out where to be and what to look at.

I told myself after that experience to conduct the survey over two days. I appreciate the mechanics wanting to see the condition of the Hull. I think however a few pictures and some descriptions would go along way to describe how clean the props and Hull are.

Gordon

Hi all,

I like having the engine inspector and surveyor there from the beginning through the end, or close to it. Why?

I want the engine inspector to see the engine starts from totally cold, which is important to assess compression. I want the inspector to see the smoke volume, color, and how it clears and if it comes back. I want the inspector to be able to listen to it hunt, if it does. I also want the engine inspector there for the sea trial to pay attention to the warm-up curve, where the thermostats kick in, that temps level off, to check for leaks and blow by while it is running, to hear the engine under different RPMs. I want the engine inspector to be able to safely and comfortable crawl around every nook and cranny and get a good look while it is cold. And, I want the engine inspector to do the best possible while it is running and upon return to the slip to check it over again to see what developed underway.

I know it wastes some of the inspectors time to tag around during the haul out, but it is usually fast. And, the surveyor can normally do the initial inventory while the mechanic is does the initial cold inspection, etc.

I've more often bailed on buying something because of the engine inspection than the survey. I think that's because, as a buyer, I can look around the hull, house, and decks -- but am not allowed to start the engines.

Regardless, I've often wondered if I could do the mechanical inspection first, and if a boat passes, then the survey. But, this would require two sea trials, which would be more costly -- and probably would not be easy to get organized with the owner, brokers, captains, etc.

So, ultimately, I'm willing to pay the piper to get a detailed engine survey.

We had our hull and mechanical survey at the same time. I liked the idea of getting everything done in one day but I'll say I found the amount of information coming at me in single day completely overwhelming. In retrospect I would've preferred to have had one day on the hull and systems and the other the the engines and generator. That said, it was out first trawler purchase so we may have been overwhelmed no matter the order of operations.

I can also see where two sea trials and two haul outs would eliminate any costs savings so if I were you I'd just ask the engine surveyor what to expect if the hull survey fails the boat early on.

I`m finding brokers happy to start engines, and genset, even without asking. If they run nice and quiet, it`s a selling point, if they don`t the broker might be less willing.
There is an overlap between general and mechanical survey. I think you`re stuck with doing the two together, but if you are really concerned about one or other, maybe separate them and do that one first. We had one surveyor here who did both, but it seemed to me, and the relieved selling brokers, he never found a boat he didn`t love.

OP: Your first boat didn't pan out and now you're already thinking that this one could possibly be the same?? Maybe raise your standards a tad.

I don't mean to sound rude (and sorry if I come across like that).

I like to go into a boat purchase with high expectations because I've narrowed down my choices and found the best fit for me.

"I`m finding brokers happy to start engines, and genset, even without asking. If they run nice and quiet, it`s a selling point, if they don`t the broker might be less willing."

That's a broker that should be fired!!!

As boats may be for sale for months not days , some owners will shut sea cocks , just in case
A few boats with tank fuel cutoffs or other fuel securing systems might be run out of fuel to the engine.

Will the broker come back and bleed the engines and pay for repair of overheated engine or noisemaker?

tiltrider1 said:

If you want to get screwed, tell your surveyors how to do their job. If your engine guy wants to be there for the boat haul out then I doubt pictures will be acceptable. The hull surveyor is going to sea trial the boat. The seller might not be too keen on two sea trials.

I am curious what the surveyor found on the last boat. I have only once seen a boat that failed survey. Serious bottom blisters were found when the boat was hauled out. Almost everything else can be repaired by the seller.

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Leaking fuel tanks and soft decks.

FF said:

"I`m finding brokers happy to start engines, and genset, even without asking. If they run nice and quiet, it`s a selling point, if they don`t the broker might be less willing."

That's a broker that should be fired!!!

As boats may be for sale for months not days , some owners will shut sea cocks , just in case
A few boats with tank fuel cutoffs or other fuel securing systems might be run out of fuel to the engine.

Will the broker come back and bleed the engines and pay for repair of overheated engine or noisemaker?

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It may be a cultural difference between Oz and the US. In my experience here in the US, there's no starting engines without the owner present.


Ken

larman said:

So I have finally found a boat pending survey. This may sound like I am cheap but I have been through one unsuccessful survey already. So the boat in question has twin diesels. I am having the boat surveyed and the engines surveyed as well. Engine surveyor want to do it at the same time. What if the boat surveyor finds something wrong which will negate the sale? I will be stuck paying for 2 surveys? Would it be better have the done separately?

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pretty simple: reach an agreement with the surveyor and mechanic on how you want to execute.

some people do either the mechanical inspection first or the boat survey first, have the most critical / likely culprits looked at first, and then will stop the rest of the process and not go to the next step whether its mechanical inspection or the survey. if the surveyor is local and did not have to travel, you may be out just an hour of their time if you want to stop the entire process. boats i look at are $2k+ easy for survey and mechanical inspection. hypothetically, something major is found in first hour, i might be out $1-200 instead of $2k. then again, i do a lot of due diligence myself before hiring a surveyor or mechanic. i have never had a failed survey or mechanical inspection and much of the time i am really doing it for a second set of eyes on things that i may overlook and because a lender/insurance requires it. some times i buy at a great distance so i fly-in for one day and have both the surveyor and mechanic go at it at the same time. so i might be on the hook for $2-400 if they are working separately and come across a major issue in the first hour.

again, this is basic communication and reaching an agreement on how things will be conducted....

larman said:

Leaking fuel tanks and soft decks.

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was the fuel odor in the bilge? fuel itself in the bilge?

where was the soft deck?

i ask, because you may have been able to catch it your self if it was something obvious. smelling fuel or seeing it in the bilge would be a red flag. as for the deck, you can tap around with a mallet or your knuckles and get a pretty good initial sense as to how the deck is.

like i said in my post above, i have my own checklist of things that i try to do myself or get answers on and the surveyor / engine mechanic comes on-board to check their own list. some times i have things on my list that they never thought of or are specific to my boat make/model. some times they have things on their list that i dont have the experience or tools to assess and i let them handle. end of the day between my checking things and their checking things, we have a pretty good survey/inspection. if there is opportunity for me to check some things ahead of even scheduling a survey/inspection, i will. i can run through a lot of things myself in an hour or two of poking around. pictures can also help indicate the condition of a boat. i typically want to see recent, high resolution pictures of a boat including critical components, areas (i.e. bilge, wiring), etc, and i can make a decent judgment of what condition the boat is in before even getting to the point of scheduling a surveyor / mechanic. getting all the maintenance records helps too. i will not consider most boats without a full review of those records to make sure the boat was well-maintained. finally, before i even get this far i want to see the seller's material damage statement saying basically the boat has not been in any accidents, sunk, there are no known mechanical conditions, or anything that makes the boat un- sea worthy or unmarketable. in fact, most brokers require this statement before they will even list a boat so its usually as easy as them forwarding it via email.

FF said:

"I`m finding brokers happy to start engines, and genset, even without asking. If they run nice and quiet, it`s a selling point, if they don`t the broker might be less willing."

That's a broker that should be fired!!!

As boats may be for sale for months not days , some owners will shut sea cocks , just in case
A few boats with tank fuel cutoffs or other fuel securing systems might be run out of fuel to the engine.

Will the broker come back and bleed the engines and pay for repair of overheated engine or noisemaker?

Click to expand...

it all depends on the arrangement. some sellers tell a broker to do anything to get the boat sold. its rare for a broker to start up engines but i have seen it once or twice. its between the seller and the broker on scope and who is responsible for what. a lot of brokers may refuse to do it even if the seller asks or allows because of liability and their insurance may not cover them operating a boat.

tiltrider1 said:

If you want to get screwed, tell your surveyors how to do their job. If your engine guy wants to be there for the boat haul out then I doubt pictures will be acceptable. The hull surveyor is going to sea trial the boat. The seller might not be too keen on two sea trials.

I am curious what the surveyor found on the last boat. I have only once seen a boat that failed survey. Serious bottom blisters were found when the boat was hauled out. Almost everything else can be repaired by the seller.

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When boat "shopping" we found a boat that we liked. I was not as knowledgeable then as to "some of the warning signs" as I am now. The boat "failed" survey and we walked away. I am now, very happy that I did not buy that boat and feel that the money on the surveyor was well spent!
The first issue that was of concern was the listing broker. He would not allow us to involve our own broker (who we had been working with for a while). Second, there were a few items I did "catch" on my own (that neither the broker nor seller had dealt with) that were pretty obvious. For instance he stored both a gas container and a spare propane bottle in the lazerette under the cockpit floor. Bad enough that this was an enclosed space, but it also contained 2 batteries (in series) and a battery charger for powering the stern thruster. The broker removed the flammables prior to the survey. I also spotted a couple of "easily visible issues" with the engine. The gear oil cooler was leaking saltwater right over top of the airsep filter and there was visible "crud" in the Racor filter. Both of these were corrected (at least visibly) prior to survey. Were these an indication of "general" engine maintenance?
Anyway, the reason the boat "failed" survey was that one of the stringers had separated from the hull and was not repaired in a "proper" manner. The surveyor was not the only one who felt that way, as I sent several good photos of the "issue" to the original boat manufacturer who was extremely helpful with suggestions, answers, and advice.
The broker told us that "stringers were not really important" and we shouldn't worry (his first comments), but later said that the seller would not drop the price nor would he repair the issue to our surveyor's satisfaction.
We walked, really glad we did, and I would not use that broker (even though he has the "certification") ever again for anything.
As an aside, the broker we had been using as a buyer's broker still helped us with advise and even research during this situation even though he would not have received a "commission" from that sale. I would have given him a "gift" (cash) for his help if that sale had gone through. Later he was instrumental in the completion of our purchase of Pilitak and we are FAR better off than if we had completed on the other boat.
I agree totally with what others have stated. Do as thorough an inspection on your own as you can. Don't go just by the "cosmetics". Then if a boat fails survey, think of it as "money well spent" as you could have ended up an expensive mistake.

Another option may be to request an "at the dock" pre-offer inspection. The seller could baulk but hiring the same surveyor or a trusted shipwright to inspect the vessel with you as part of a "should I make an offer" inspection may reveal major issues before committing to the offer and full survey.

FF,

It might depend if the boat is being showed by the seller's own agent, or someone else from the brokerage vs a co-brokerage. When sellers were there, or the seller's agent knew the seller and the boat -- they did occasionally (often?) start engines. But, mostly they told me it was too much liability and that was something that happened at the sea trial and inspections. Maybe it was just my bum luck -- but I had a lot of it. :-(

Don't start off boat ownership looking for ways to cut corners. Let the surveyors coordinate their efforts and timing to minimize any issues. Then let them do their jobs completely. If either one finds a deal killer in the process, then stop right then. I've seen surveys halted within the first hour. Both the boat and the engine surveyors gave substantial discounts. Those would depend somewhat on their travel. You've got to assume you've chosen people who will be fair with you but fair isn't just charge for an hour. They still blocked out time and traveled to and from.

As someone mentioned above, if you're very worried about the boat failing, then perhaps you haven't done due diligence. I would assume and hope any boat I had surveyed would be worth buying with some accommodation as price reductions for significant work needed.

I've also observed in South Florida that the surveyors and engine surveyors all know each other well and if you've selected wisely, they'll work very well together.

As a hull surveyor I like to have adequate quiet time aboard without interruption. On larger and/or more complicated boats I come the day before and the next day with the mechanic too. Sometimes the mechanic comes the day before too.

I work on my notes between the first and second days and hit the ground running day two for an early haul-out and trial-run. The brokers do not always like it but they spend plenty of time sitting somewhere working so most just do that aboard during the process.

I too like quiet time to do my job. Very stressful to have a buyer hovering over me asking questions. I have no problem discussing things (he is paying me!!), but I can either work or talk. I am not very good at doing both. I'd much rather be left alone and then when done (or if I find something significant), I take the buyer aside and then talk.

I also do "quick looks", just go to the boat for like an hour and sniff around before travel plans, surveyor, captain and haulout are scheduled, which can be quite the undertaking. Usually in 15min I can tell if the engines are a mess or not. Works out pretty well.