Battery Wire

RickB wrote:
"You don't even know who you're talking to, who is Don? Is your blood pressure so high that you can't even read?" Uh, maybe someone can explain to you who the guy is with the pointy shoes in the cartoon you posted. "My goodness Rick, relax and take a break. Are you so highly strung that you can't help repeating yourself over and over and over?" I have the same answer to the same question and the same counter argument. If you don't like the answer, stop asking the same question in a different form. You can wire your boat with zip cord for all I care, if you put it in conduit and terminate it properly and don't overload it, it will last just as long as "boat cable." If you can't understand that then spend your time finding out who Don is rather than argue about something that you are obviously unable to understand. If anyone here needs to "take a break" I suggest it might be you if you have become so distracted that you can't even remember your own posts, or have no idea what your cartoon is meant to illustrate or who is in it.

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Dear Mr. Quixote (Quijana):

Your fussing and fuming is entertaining. I don't see anyone else in this thread telling someone that their method is wrong except you. You insist that everyone else*is wrong and your way is the only way. When we state why we do a certain thing, you go off on a tangent threatening people. Most of us are just sharing experiences and methods of doing things without judgement.

Just as in the play, when you attack a windmill, thinking it is a four armed dragon, you attack us, thinking we are the enemy, pointy shoes and all.

You still haven't answered who the "Don" you're talking to is. The name didn't start in my post, it started in yours. You are confused. I recall the same confusion when you thought Aldonza was Dulcinea. You speak to people who aren't who you think they are. Some might call that delusional, I'll withold my judgement.

I won't even start on the part where in your mind you think you are the knight and saviour of all.

Have a great day.

Ken

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RT Firefly wrote:
Greetings,
Mr. RickB. I think I understand now but my neighbor, Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?
Thanks.

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*

Ken, I think your collar is a bit too tight. And for the record, I could care less how anyone wires, plumbs, runs, docks, anchors, or from which location they steer their boat.

I* don't tell anyone how they must do anything. I suggest ways (if I know any)* to do things that save money, work well, or avoid imagined issues or "requirements." Whether anyone finds my input useful is completely up to them and I am not diminished in the slightest if someone believes the complete opposite or does something different.

Most readers simply take it or leave it. I don't have anything to prove and certainly have no interest in debating nonsense with people who really don't have a life beyond these pages.

And to address the one accusation where you show how poorly are able to read, I never said any technique or material is "wrong." I said a surveyor who claims tinned wire is a requirement is wrong. Not only is he wrong he is incompetent and ignorant of the rules and standards that apply to the job he claims to perform.

Au revoir mon petite chien.


-- Edited by RickB on Saturday 4th of February 2012 10:31:14 AM

In this whole discussion I don't think anyone mentioned a serious problem you can have with welding cable.* Most welding cable has the insulation made of materials that are not suitable for exposure to diesel fuel.* I have seen welding cable that has been accidentally exposed to diesel, and it becomes very soft and it swells up, becoming very susceptible to accidental exposure of the conductors to grounding or shorting.* If you do decide to use welding cable, make sure there is no chance of exposure to diesel fuel.* If you think your welding cable can withstand fuel exposure, try cutting a small piece and soaking in fuel for a while.*

Having said that, my boat has welding cable running from the battery bank to the pilot house, then to the bow, probably about 80ft total.* It was that way when I bought it, and there has never been a problem, but there is no where it could be exposed to diesel except in an extreme leaking situation.*

Now, to open another lid on Pandora's box, how and where do you intend to fuse your (non starter motor) welding cable? How will you size the fuse? Do you know what the current carrying capacity of the cable is?* Is it different (less) when used in an engine room?* Is it less when multiple conductors are run together?* Do you need to de-rate it according to the total length of both conductors? Are you concerned about the voltage drop, and will you again de-rate the cable to achieve the required voltage?* Does the voltage drop matter in your application?* ........Arctic Traveller

Arctic Traveller wrote:
*Having said that, my boat has welding cable running from the battery bank to the pilot house, then to the bow, probably about 80ft total.* It was that way when I bought it, and there has never been a problem, but there is no where it could be exposed to diesel except in an extreme leaking situation.*

*

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*My gawd.. I hope it was tinned?*:wink:

RickB wrote:
*

"I* don't tell anyone how they must do anything."


"And for Heaven's sake, don't perpetuate the myths by posting warnings about stuff like that. After a while people begin to believe it is true ... even surveyors."





-- Edited by RickB on Saturday 4th of February 2012 10:31:14 AM

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*So which quote do you want to stand by? The one where you say you don't tell anyone what they must do, or the one where you tell people what to do?

Your choice, they are both direct quotes from your posts on the same thread.

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*

I just wonder - If I had a welder, should I use boat cable on it?

Although ABYC is a 'recommended' set of guide lines this is what the insurance companies tend to go by. If the insurance company declines coverage for your boat it goes into an industry record. If you accumulate too many declined coverage notices you may be SOL. Remember many marinas now insist on proof of coverage before they rent you a slip.
Elnav

ABYC guide lines are a minimum recommended standard. Foreign manufacturers generally meet their own national standards that may meet or exceed, or not, ABYC standards. Not all boats are made in the US or strictly adhere to ABYC minimum standards.

ABYC standards can easily be exceeded with commercial quality materials and methods that are approved by IACS members and flag state surveyors. The fact that recreational boat surveyors may not recognize a higher quality or standard does not mean the insurance underwriter will not accept a higher standard when it is shown to exist as is easily done through documentation and their own inhouse surveyors at no expense to the owner.

To get back to the point, ABYC does not "require" the use of tinned wire. If the insurance company demands that ABYC standards are met, they will be met without having to use tinned wire. If a surveyor says the wiring does not meet ABYC standards because he does not see tinned wire, he is wrong. It really is that simple.

If the discussion is about the quality of an installation, the use of tinned wire may be a component of a quality installation but it is not the definition of one and it is absolutely not a required component of one.

If your insurance company drops or threatens your coverage because of false information you have legal alternatives. The insurance company is not a modern day "Ma Bell" or big brother. You can and should work with your agent to preclude being harmed by incompetent surveyors. Despite the ravings of some, this is not tilting at windmills, it is good consumer practice.

I regularly participate in negotiations with underwriters and their surveyors (independent of class surveyors) to determine the materials and techniques used for repairs and replacements. They demand that class and flag standards (real legally required standards, not just suggestions) are met and we negotiate how far beyond the minimum they will pay for. You pay for insurance, you pay for the same degree of professionalism. Make sure you get it.

RickB wrote:

Did you try Hardware Specialties in Seattle?

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Well, it looks like the search ends and my wire is going to have to be tinned. Even these guys only carries tinned wire. I fought the good fight, but in the end, nobody had both the selection or the ability to sell by-the-foot. Nevertheless, Hardware Specialties KILLED the competition on price. Made some measurements this weekend and I'll order next week.

Pics of the inverter install here in a few.

Tom: Yellow for the DC negative?

Larry M wrote:

Tom: Yellow for the DC negative?

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Nope.

Elnav wrote:
Although ABYC is a 'recommended' set of guide lines this is what the insurance companies tend to go by. If the insurance company declines coverage for your boat it goes into an industry record. If you accumulate too many declined coverage notices you may be SOL. Remember many marinas now insist on proof of coverage before they rent you a slip.
Elnav

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I can't tell you how easily a*surveyor can cause you grief.* I'm sure there are a lot of horror stories out there, but this was my one and only. I was having an insurance survey done and used a surveyor that a friend recommended.* My friend*asked me to*use him because, "He could really use the work!"* That should have been my first clue.*

From the minute he came on the boat, I knew this was not going to be a good experience.* After putting up with his personal opinions on how poorly power boats*are constructed and*sailboats are better.* Then waiting while he*talked to his girl friend on his cell several times, he finally left.* I got the survey about a week later and submitted it to the insurance Co.* A few days later,*I get a call from the insurance company and they tell me they cannot insure my boat until the "brass" through hull valves are replaced.* He had identified the valves as "brass" instead of "bronze" and recommended they be replaced with some type of plastic valve that he favored.* When I talked to the underwriters surveyor, he* had also called my surveyor and got in a heated discussion with him as well and was hung up on.*

After several calls I*finally reached him*and his response was, "Bronze / Brass, same thing, it's just the color of the metal and they need to be replaced!" *To make a long story short, I had to threaten him with legal action before he would write an addendum correcting the valves to be Bronze.**He still wouldn't remove the comment that they should be replaced with plastic valves.* The insurance underwriter was OK with that and issued the binder.

He's still in business in the Anacortes area and*is listed as an approved surveyor by*several marine insurance companies.* *You don't want to use him, he's a nightmare!!*

Larry B


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Sunday 5th of February 2012 08:09:54 PM

Larry, what do you suppose would have happened if that surveryor were working for someone trying to buy your boat? Would the sale have gone thru? Wouldn't have mattered if the surveyor was right or wrong, your sale would be gone, or you would have hauled the boat and replaced the thruhulls to make the sale work.

That was my point on page one. Sometimes it's easier to work with the system than to work against it.

Gonzo/Tom, Rick used all the untinned wire with his miles and miles of untinned wiring he put in. ;-)

2bucks wrote:
That was my point on page one. Sometimes it's easier to work with the system than to work against it.

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That IS a fair argument, but why just let them run all over you. And THAT, sir, is MY point. Saying something is marine grade just to milk more money out of us is the dumbest thing about this hobby/lifestyle. I drill West Marine a new a-hole on every survey questionnaire they send me because they PUSH to bring new people into boating and do nothing but intentionally make boating costs out of reach of people of lessor means. They should be the LEADER of lower costs in boating,not the hypocrites.

If we all weren't so gullible, and just worked in the system, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sometimes you HAVE to fight the good fight. I guess I seem to have lost this one, but there are more ahead.

#occupyWestMarine :-D

Ken

It was even worse than that.* His survey was so screwed up, as a buyer, you would have*been shafted if there had been something wrong.

In*the survey*he talks about running the engines and states that the engines ran smoothly, oil pressure was in normal range, the lube oil was clear and there was no excessive smoke.** We never started the engines and he never checked the oil !

He also*reported*that*he examined the hull, there were no blisters and composite hull showed no signs of delaminations.* Needed bottom paint and owner had ordered*repainting at the time of haulout and survey.

Californians have solid glass hulls not composite and beside. . . .* . . this was an in the water survey, we didn't haul out!!

LB


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Sunday 5th of February 2012 10:22:18 PM

rwidman wrote:FF wrote:
Besides, has anyone ever shown "tinned" wire is better? Better for what?

LONGEVITY

I have personally observed wire that was corroded and black several feet from a termination.* That would have been untinned wire.* Tinned wire will not do that.

My point is, if you have to buy materials to do a job and then spend a lot of time and/or money on labor, why not use the best quality materials you can find (at a reasonable cost, of course)?

If you've ever done a job over (for free) because you used inferior materials, you would understand.* I learned this lesson many, many years ago and it has stuck with me.

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*

*I couldn't agree with you more on this one. I have seen corrosion on wire twenty feet from the end.

It's all that damned electricity. corroding our wires like that.

SD*

Edelweiss wrote:
Ken

It was even worse than that.* His survey was so screwed up, as a buyer, you would have*been shafted if there had been something wrong.

In*the survey*he talks about running the engines and states that the engines ran smoothly, oil pressure was in normal range, the lube oil was clear and there was no excessive smoke.** We never started the engines and he never checked the oil !

He also*reported*that*he examined the hull, there were no blisters and composite hull showed no signs of delaminations.* Needed bottom paint and owner had ordered*repainting at the time of haulout and survey.

Californians have solid glass hulls not composite and beside. . . .* . . this was an in the water survey, we didn't haul out!!

LB



-- Edited by Edelweiss on Sunday 5th of February 2012 10:22:18 PM

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*Now that, is a bad survey.

2bucks wrote:Edelweiss wrote:
Ken

It was even worse than that.* His survey was so screwed up, as a buyer, you would have*been shafted if there had been something wrong.

In*the survey*he talks about running the engines and states that the engines ran smoothly, oil pressure was in normal range, the lube oil was clear and there was no excessive smoke.** We never started the engines and he never checked the oil !

He also*reported*that*he examined the hull, there were no blisters and composite hull showed no signs of delaminations.* Needed bottom paint and owner had ordered*repainting at the time of haulout and survey.

Californians have solid glass hulls not composite and beside. . . .* . . this was an in the water survey, we didn't haul out!!

LB



-- Edited by Edelweiss on Sunday 5th of February 2012 10:22:18 PM

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*Now that, is a bad survey.

*I wonder what people call a "good" survey?.....* Every one I have ever had or heard about missed major things and concentrated on little things that insurance companies love to think are important while the rest of the boat is a disaster.

Fiberglass is a composite material, glass fiber reinforced plastic.

Unless your boat is rotomolded thermoplastic, metal, or wood without metallic frames, chances are pretty good it is a composite boat, cored or not.

" I guess I seem to have lost this one, but there are more ahead."


You haven't lost anything. It looks like you got a great buy on good wire and hopefully learned something in the process. No one ever said that tinned wire was bad, just that it is not a requirement and surveyors who say it is should be thrown off the boat immediately.

Take those two lessons and move on.

I suppose you're right. This tinned wire is just as cheap, if not cheaper, than some of the non-tinned prices I have found.

psneeld wrote:
*

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*I wonder what people call a "good" survey?.....* Every one I have ever had or heard about missed major things and concentrated on little things that insurance companies love to think are important while the rest of the boat is a disaster.

*I've had a couple of good surveys. One called for a remote propane valve, cleaning the bilge, replacing some hoses and something else very minor. He was able to do some testing, percussive and moisture, that I couldn't do. I already knew most every little item he found to need work and I had the boat for another 15 years without major problems.

For me, a good survey is one that finds problems, in particular finds all those that you already know about,*and gives a seasoned second opinion on the boat. If I had problems with the boat 2 years after the survey then I probably wouldn't feel as good about it.

*

RickB wrote:
Fiberglass is a composite material, glass fiber reinforced plastic.

Unless your boat is rotomolded thermoplastic, metal, or wood without metallic frames, chances are pretty good it is a composite boat, cored or not.

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Good catch Rick. You are correct,*fiberglass hulls are a composite of fiberglass fabrics (cloth, mat, roving) and a resin.**I meant to say a cored Fiberglass hull, not composite.* Thanks for keeping me on my toes.

The previous three surveys I had were great.* He pointed out some issues that could come back to bite me, construction debris (small wood blocks,* bits of wood and sawdust) left under the aft cabin floor that would eventually work it's way down to the bildge pumps.* Unfortunately he passed away and I didn't have any knowledge of the other two surveyors in town.* I had a 50 - 50 chance and I chose badly.* I should have talked to the Yacht dealers in town first.

Larry B


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Monday 6th of February 2012 08:55:17 PM