Battery Wire

GonzoF1 wrote:
Would it behoove (is that spelled right? ;-) ) me to move the ground to the yellow wire standard?

I believe you mean the negative wire, not the ground wire (which would be green in color).

Yellow or black, the current carrying capacity is the same.* The new requirement is to color the DC negative conductors yellow (rather than the traditional black) on boats with an AC electrical system as well as a DC system so the AC "hot" conductor (traditionally black) is not confused with the DC negative conductor.

Should you change yours?* If it was my boat and all the DC branch circuits used black for the DC negative, I would continue with black for the battery negative conductors just to reduce any confusion.* Actually, this is what I did on my boat for the inverter and windlass.* Being "old school", I never even thought about it.

But, you can use yellow if you wish, it's your choice.* If you were completely rewiring a boat or building a new one, yellow would be the choice for DC negative.

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FF wrote:
Besides, has anyone ever shown "tinned" wire is better? Better for what?

LONGEVITY

I have personally observed wire that was corroded and black several feet from a termination.* That would have been untinned wire.* Tinned wire will not do that.

My point is, if you have to buy materials to do a job and then spend a lot of time and/or money on labor, why not use the best quality materials you can find (at a reasonable cost, of course)?

If you've ever done a job over (for free) because you used inferior materials, you would understand.* I learned this lesson many, many years ago and it has stuck with me.

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*

Right... DC Negative... Sorry. I tend to interchange the terms sometimes.

rwidman wrote:I have personally observed wire that was corroded and black several feet from a termination.

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I have personally never seen a corroded conductor on a wire that is terminated correctly, protected from damage, and operated within its temperature limits.

And I have seen a lot of wires.

If all you do is strip the insulation off, crimp a connector on it and expose the wire to moisture, bilge water, washdown water, excessive heat, oil, mechanical movement and general abuse, you could use silver wire and it won't last half as long as good quality wire that is terminated and installed properly.

That is the secret to LONGEVITY, not some marketers wet dream. All the magic coatings in the world won't overcome low rent installation techniques.

Did you ever wonder why a military or commercial vessel can last 30 years in constant operation without having its wiring self destruct but a recreational vessel seems to need special treatment?

I called Pace... they do have SOME non-tinned wire. Nothing larger than 1/0, though and that's a bummer. Also, nothing non-tinned in yellow insulation standard. So... the search continues. I suppose I COULD mix and match, but I'd LOVE to find a one-stop shop for it all.

Not a bad idea, but I don't know if the insulation is correct. Maybe Rick can shed some light. Here's the description: Stranded Bare Copper Class K, Insulating Material Red Carolprene Jacket, Standards RoHS Compliant

Sounds like rubber to me. I think the requirement is for PVC.

I don't know what "Carolprene" is. Carol is a wire manufacturer and they probably have a proprietary jacket material. What you want is an EPR jacket which is a polypropylene compound (maybe what Carolprene is) as it is oil resistant.

The Class K refers to the number of strands that make up the conductor. K is a high count of small strands in a large cross section so that heavy current capacity is still flexible.

So if it IS an EPR material, it would pass. Would it be CG compliant? Still... finding a per foot dealer might be, again, a challenge. Calling welding supply place tomorrow.

Tom-

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 01:38:47 PM

There is no compliance standard you have to meet. That is the whole point of this discussion. Unless you are going to operate your boat commercially or want to get a class certificate, you can pretty much do what you want.

I think there was a guy here who soldered a fuel system together out of hardware store Ts and elbows wasn't there? That probably got "passed" by every surveyor out there and the CG doesn't give a hoot. It seems to be the single item of "tinned wire" being the third rail of boat maintenance and small boat surveyors that gets everyone worked up so much.

GonzoF1 wrote:
So if it IS an EPR material, it would pass. Would it be CG compliant? Still... finding a per foot dealer might be, again, a challenge. Calling welding supply place tomorrow.

Tom-

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 01:38:47 PM

I posted about genuinedealz.com above.* They sell battery cable by the foot.* Really, they do.

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I gotcha Ron... All their selection seems to be tinned except for only one gauge of welding cable, but I will call them tomorrow and ask. Thanks.

Did you try Hardware Specialties in Seattle?

Nope... But I will. Thanks.
(sorry I missed that earlier)

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 09:11:38 PM

GonzoF1 wrote:
I gotcha Ron... All their selection seems to be tinned except for only one gauge of welding cable, but I will call them tomorrow and ask. Thanks.

Are you trying to not use tinned wire for some reason?

You can't go wrong using the approved, tinned, "boat cable".* I can't see you saving enough money with something else unless you have a free source.

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*BTW: If you want to keep costs to a minimum, snake a piece of heavy string or light rope wherever the cables will go, mark the ends, pull the string out and measure it.* Add a foot or so for "just in case", and you won't have to buy more than you really need.


-- Edited by rwidman on Friday 3rd of February 2012 08:00:33 AM

rwidman wrote:You can't go wrong using the approved, tinned, "boat cable".

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*Approved By whom? For what use and what standard?

If you reallly mean "approved" as in CG approved then you need to use an IEE cable per 46CFR111.60

Let me know if there is a single boat owned by anyone on this site that uses that cable, or if anyone buys that stuff for their weekend installation work.

By the way, that is what is available at Hardware Specialty in short lengths.

Even the UL approved cable sold as "marine" or "boat cable" only meets UL standards for insulation and the use of stranded conductors. It doesn't have to be tinned and unless I am mistaken, it doesn't have to meet smoke standards - and if "approval" means so much perhaps that standard is one people should pay more attention to.

Be careful tossing around words like "approved."

Allow me to add that the current state of my wiring is NOT "marine grade" and other than the surveyor noting that the lug installation was crappy, he never mentioned that it needed to be tinned wire.

But to answer your question, Ron... Yes, I am definitely trying to avoid tinned wire. Part of it is for the reasons Rick mentioned. Part of it is that it will save me money (although the argument could be made that any savings have been lost in the time spent searching for a good source of non-tinned wire). And still another part is to rage against the machine that is the "marine grade" fallacy. Not EVERYTHING needs to marine grade to work for a boat. It's just an excuse to relieve us of more money.

Tom-

Hooray Gonzo!

I wish more people would stand up for what is right and tell those self-appointed guardians of "standards" they don't even understand to go pound sand and stop ripping off boat owners.

The quality of work and installation is so very much more important in this area than tinned contductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best.

Stop feeding the machine!

"The quality of work and installation is so very much more important ... than tinned conductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best." ... says much more about reality than a cartoon self portrait.

Like I wrote before, Don, if you prefer you can use gold and silver wire labeled as "officially approved special heavy duty salt proof marine boat wire" but if you make garbage connections and do a poor installation it won't perform as well, as safely, or last nearly as long as the cheapest wire installed correctly.

By the way, don't your pointy shoes catch on rocks and bushes?

But if you use tinned wire and do a good job the system will last a lot longer than doing just one or the other. If you use cheap wire than the connections are most critical, solder, adhesive heat shrink and proper crimping and than one may still miss a connection. It's your call. How good are you at making connections? How easy is it to get to the job site? How long are you going to keep the boat? Everything is a trade off--time, money, and aggravation.

"But if you use tinned wire and do a good job the system will last a lot longer than doing just one or the other."

That is a false assertion. If the work is done correctly, the wire will last just as long as tinned wire installed equally well. That is the whole point, do the job right and there is no difference in longevity or any other measure of performance.

The military and commercial maritiie world does not use tinned wire and those critical installations perform very well for longer than most recreational boats even last.

What part of doing a proper installation is so difficult to understand? Why do people believe that tinned wire offers some magic alternative to otherwise unacceptable craftsmanship?

RickB wrote:
"The quality of work and installation is so very much more important ... than tinned conductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best." ... says much more about reality than a cartoon self portrait.

Like I wrote before, Don, if you prefer you can use gold and silver wire labeled as "officially approved special heavy duty salt proof marine boat wire" but if you make garbage connections and do a poor installation it won't perform as well, as safely, or last nearly as long as the cheapest wire installed correctly.

By the way, don't your pointy shoes catch on rocks and bushes?

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*You don't even know who you're talking to, who is Don? Is your blood pressure so high that you can't even read? My goodness Rick, relax and take a break. Are you so highly strung that you can't help repeating yourself over and over and over? That's not a healthy way to live. You should think about taking a break from the internet and getting your life in order again. Assuming it ever was in order.

Real life says we deal with surveyors and sometimes with surveyors others have hired. What they say sometimes sways the buyer.*Throwing them ingloiously onto the dock off your boat seems a little harsh. Perhaps even affecting a sale negatively. If you don't like the suggestion to spend a little more now and avoid a problem later, then by all means don't do it.

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If anybody wants to "stick it to the man" by seaching high and low for a product that is as good as "marine rated" but not "marine rated", have at it. Enjoy yourself. You could have had the stuff in hand by now and be installing it instead of shopping.

Me, I have no axe to grind, I use what I think is best under the circumstances. In the case of wire or cable for my boat, that would be "boat cable".

I think certain folks on this forum just argue for the sake of arguing or trying to impress people with their "knowledge".

"You don't even know who you're talking to, who is Don? Is your blood pressure so high that you can't even read?"

Uh, maybe someone can explain to you who the guy is with the pointy shoes in the cartoon you posted.

"My goodness Rick, relax and take a break. Are you so highly strung that you can't help repeating yourself over and over and over?"

I have the same answer to the same question and the same counter argument. If you don't like the answer, stop asking the same question in a different form. You can wire your boat with zip cord for all I care, if you put it in conduit and terminate it properly and don't overload it, it will last just as long as "boat cable." If you can't understand that then spend your time finding out who Don is rather than argue about something that you are obviously unable to understand.

If anyone here needs to "take a break" I suggest it might be you if you have become so distracted that you can't even remember your own posts, or have no idea what your cartoon is meant to illustrate or who is in it.

Greetings,
Mr. RickB. I think I understand now but my neighbor, Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?
Thanks.

The wiring on the boat I just purchased is 30 years old. At the connectors to the batteries the corrosion was pretty bad. If tinned I think it would have been a different story. The shrink wrap and the cable covering has started to break down also exposing the untinned wire to the elements. If tinned I could probably get X more years out of it, but as it is I have got to replace. Of course the fact the old wire lasted 30 years could make a good argument for using regular old wire but if I don't get the shrink wrap correct this time I'll have problems in a lot less than 30 years. This is the 4 the boat I have owned and wire corrosion was present on all of them. I guess the factory didn't do a good job with the connectors. Maybe tinned wire is for those of us that aren't making perfect connections all the time.

RT Firefly wrote:
Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?

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I am skeptical about using rigatoni in the engine room but have had good luck with garden hose. If you want something with writing on it for the surveyor, you can use PEX tubing or PVC pipe, they are both cheap and waterproof and have stuff written on them. Rigatoni gets soft when used in the bilge.

As I mentioned 5 pages ago, my industrial experience with tinned wire is nada, as in not used. So what makes a boat so rigorous an application whereas in far wetter (acids and mists) non marine applications tinned wire is not utilized?

Is tinned wire speced by the Navy for use on nuclear subs? I'm just asking, I have no idea.



-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 3rd of February 2012 11:45:34 PM


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 3rd of February 2012 11:45:59 PM

The military and commercial maritiie world does not use tinned wire and those critical installations perform very well for longer than most recreational boats even last.


Not so. the military does not DEMAND tinned wire , Except for the most critical service.

Naval "GUN FIRE WIRE" is probably the most critical and is not only tinned bit also shielded.

Its IEEE cert , and the USCG accepted it in our 90/90 that was built for inspected service.

RickB wrote:RT Firefly wrote:
Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?

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I am skeptical about using rigatoni in the engine room but have had good luck with garden hose. If you want something with writing on it for the surveyor, you can use PEX tubing or PVC pipe, they are both cheap and waterproof and have stuff written on them. Rigatoni gets soft when used in the bilge.

Type ENT flexible non-metalic electrical conduit works pretty well for running or protecting wires and cables.

http://www.carlon.com/Master%20Catalog/ENT_2B43.pdf

It doesn't carry ABYC or USCG approveal so that could be either a positive or a negative feature depending on which side of the "approval" fence you sit on.*

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