Propane Fueled Outboards

I think most propane generators are emergency stand by generators. The advantage in that situation is that the generator can sit unused for long periods of time and still start right up. Propane can be stored vitually forever without going bad. I have a bunch of propane stored for my huricane generator. I don't think the exhaust is non poisonous, just less so.
Ken, do you have a diesel outboard for your dinghy or are you forced to carry a second fuel for that purpose?

I started this thread because I had heard that someone was coming out with a propane outboard. It is official. Here is a quote from the Miami Herald today:
Lehr Inc. a Southern California company known primarily as a maker of environmentally friendly lawn care equipment introduces the worlds first production propane-powered outboards in 2.5- and 5-horsepower models. You can check them out at Booth T-68 at the Miami Beach Convention Center.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/16/2643577/new-outboard-engine-running-on.html#storylink=cpy

I took a look at them today. Looks like a pretty neat unit.

I still haven't gotten over to the convention center but my guys tell me that the distributor asked us to put them in our booth. I've got to get over there and see these things.

"It was difficult to keep enough propane to run the generator and roof air for three day weekend. Now, our gas generator will drink from the 60 gallon engine fuel tank, so this is better for us regardless of any difference in fuel cost."

"I spent over $200 on propane for the last hurricane when the power was out for four of five days and had the hassle of hooking up portable propane tanks to keep it going. If you have a gas, and a gasoline engine on the mh, you are good for a long time. (25 gal propane vs 60 gal gasoline) "

So the propane use is higher and MH have larger gas tanks than far more costly propane tanks.

"Propane is by far the better choice-the benefits far outweigh the very small de rating, if you were able to see the inside of a propane engine side by side of a gas engine in the same application it would convince you also. "

Propane burns so much cleaner that the usual propane fueled engine will give close to diesel longevity .

And from our board,

"The advantage in that situation is that the generator can sit unused for long periods of time and still start right up. Propane can be stored vitually forever without going bad."

A real problem with outboards that have tanked fuel in a big tank and little use.

30 days of gasoline life is short for a cruising boat.

HopCar wrote:
Ken, do you have a diesel outboard for your dinghy or are you forced to carry a second fuel for that purpose?

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*I carry gasoline for the outboard, propane for the stove/oven, and diesel for the main propulsion, generator, heat, hot water.

I buy diesel once, sometimes twice a* year. Pull up to the dock, put the hose in and wait until full.

I buy gasoline once per year. I dump whatevers left to a pail to take home for the lawnmower while I'm still in the boathouse. Then, I fill the gasoline at the same time on the same dock, from a pump 5 feet from the diesel pump.

I use propane for cooking only. I use a tank every 2 years. I take my 7/8" wrench up to the flybridge, take the tank out, off the dock to the car, stop at some place that sells propane, go in get the guy, fill the tank, go in pay, take the now much heavier tank back to the boat, up on the bridge, connect, leak check, and I'm ready to go. Anyone ever see a propane hose on a fuel dock to make this part easier?

Now that's just my boating style. I cruise about 200 engine*hours per year in my 3 months of living on the boat each summer. I use the outboard engine when I'm going a fairly long ways to shore, the oars work pretty well for short trips. In the PNW most of the anchorage water is in the short trip range.

I see someone said that propane generators can sit for long periods unused. Do they have different generator ends? All the diesel and gasoline generator manufacturers I've seen recommend running every month to create heat to drive out any moisture from the generator.

Hi Ken, I was the one who said "propane generators can sit for long periods unused". This comes from my emergency generator at home. I start it once a year at the begining of hurricane season. I also hook it to an electric heater (1500 watts) to put a load on it. It's stored in a garden shed with high humidity. So far (ten plus years) no problems. I have about 200 pounds of propane stored for it. The propane outboard won't be for every body. I'm thinking of getting the 2hp one to replace the electric trolling motor I use to power my Avon and my canoe. I switched to electric because I use it so infrequently that the gas engine I had wouldn't start when ever I wanted to use it. Propane is a lot cleaner to handle than gasoline as well.

Ken

Got me.

I am that guy who has a propane gen on the RV and never posted anything about it.

Today my guys at the boat show answered my original question, "Is there a maket for propane outboards?", they sold one. I got my first look at them today and I'm impressed. They won't replace gasoline outboards any time soon but they are pretty nice. I was worried that it would be hard to start, it wasn't. It fired off on my first pull. The engine was warm as they had been starting often so we'll see how hard a cold engine is to start. They said the 2.5hp would run about an hour on a 1lb. propane canister, the 5hp about half that. It was very easy to change canisters and very easy to hook it up to a larger tank. They are selling 10 lb fiberglass tanks to go with it. I passed on your suggestion to make a horizontal tank so it wouldn't be so easy to tip over. They thought it was a good idea and then as we talked they realized they could just make a mount for the vertical tank to lay on it's side. Normally this wouldn't work as you would get liquid propane out of the tank. That won't bother this engine as it can run on either liquid or gas propane. They showed me a prototype of a refillable 1 pound canister that will be inexpensive and easy to fill from a larger tank. No need to freeze the canister or pull the vent pin to get a full fill. Remember I said that I started the engine? Did I mention I was inside the convention center? You couldn't start any of the gasoline engines inside the convention center. I asked them about carbon monoxide. They said that propane puts out about 70% less than gasoline. I asked who made the engine for them assuming it was a converted gasoline engine. It's not. The octane rating of propane is about 110 so it can run at a much higher compression ratio than a gasoline engine. These engines were designed from the ground up for propane. They are buying the lower units from one of the big outboard makers. I spoke to the owner of the company about where he thought the market for propane outboards may go. He thinks that propane may become available at fuel docks as it costs very little to install the equipment. Company's that sell propane wholesale will install the equipment free. The retailer just has to provide electricity to the equipment. If propane becomes available at fuel docks, we may see bigger propane engines.

"If propane becomes available at fuel docks, we may see bigger propane engines."


You bet , for 200 hours a year the lack of maint , compared to diesels, will make the fuel free.

Propane noisemakers , unfortuniatly , were designed mostly for gasoline , so the economy of the higher compression ratio wont be realized.

Of course propane reefers are common in RV's , and if fuel is easier to get aboard , the dead battery or noisemaker 8 hours a day for electric fridges wont be missed.

Parks,

Nice job getting David onto Ship Shape TV to talk about the propane outboards! He looked a bit nervous, but did a great job.

On topic... I think people need to understand that these outboards are only going to be a option. They are a great "new" technology that will provide a cleaner and cheaper alternative to messy gas motors, but they aren't for everybody. There will always be people that find one reason or another (valid or otherwise) not to use, or even accept, alternatives to good-old gasoline. We all have our reasons to use what we use, but if there is a market for these, they will sell. Plain and simple. With the widespread use of propane in the business world (and why is that? it's more efficient... you really think they would do it voluntarily just for kicks?) it was just a matter of time before someone came up with a propane outboard for mass-market delivery. Use it...don't use it, I don't care, but it IS a better fuel than gas in almost every way. (Well, except for the method of ground extraction.)

Personally, I MAY transition over in the future, but I have just bought a Nissan 8HP gasser and I'm not ready to let it go just yet. I am also waiting until the higher HP models come out. Still, I'd like to try the 5HP and see if it's enough. I don't know how I can be so patient on the trawler and so impatient in the dinghy. When I get in 'Special Purpose', I want to get to where I am going in short order. :-D




-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Sunday 19th of February 2012 08:31:20 AM

Hi Gonzo,
The Ship Shape thing was a total surprise. Dave was faking it! He had never heard of propane outboards ten minutes before. One of the sales reps who call on us said that Ship Shape would be coming by to film, but he didn't tell us when or what the subject would be. I haven't seen the show yet. Dave told me that he made a mistake and said the propane cylinders could be stored in a locker. He meant a locker vented overboard. Propane gas is just as dangerous as gasoline vapors. I didn't even get to the store until they were done filming. I've run into John Graviscus a couple of times. He seems to be a nice guy and very smart. He would like for me to buy advertising on his show. Do you think I should?

koliver wrote:
Ken

Got me.

I am that guy who has a propane gen on the RV and never posted anything about it.

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*Fortunately you had the good sense to buy a Beaver. ;-)

Ken

Ken

That was my wife.

Gonzo, I finally saw the show. Dave looked like a deer in head lights! He also screwed up the run time on a pound of propane for the 5HP. He said an hour at WOT, 1/2 hour would be closer. It's early in the game for these engines and I don't want to exagerate the benefits of propane outboards. It could come back to bite me in the rear. I think you should call him on Wednesday, I'll be out of town, and ask for the goofy looking guy from the TV show. Maybe we should wait a week before we mess with him. He'll be dealing with the boat show aftermath and will be grumpy. That's why I'm going fishing!

HopCar,

What are the weights on these engines.**4 cycles are heavy in comparison to 2 cycles.* Weight is a key factor.

The 2.5 weighs 37.4 pounds and the short shaft 5 weighs 49.6 pounds. This is about what other four cycle outboards of the same power weigh. I agree with you about weight. I had a little 2HP Suzuiki 2 stroke until recently and it was about a third less heavy than these four strokes. Are any of the manufacturers still making small two stroke engines?

HopCar wrote:The 2.5 weighs 37.4 pounds and the short shaft 5 weighs 49.6 pounds. This is about what other four cycle outboards of the same power weigh. I agree with you about weight. I had a little 2HP Suzuiki 2 stroke until recently and it was about a third less heavy than these four strokes. Are any of the manufacturers still making small two stroke engines?

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*Yes they all do but you can not buy them here in the US. I think there is a company that exports from China that will ship here but I'm afraid that if the Customs folks get a wild hair you might not get your engine.* Also if you go to the islands you can buy them new in the name brands such as Yamaha, Honda and all of the rest.* You just have to bring them in which I don't think that would be such a hard thing to do.

The key will be to get 8-10hp at 50#'s.* But when you add an oil pump 2#'s and four quarts of oil 6#'s and a filter 1# plus valve train parts*50#'s becomes the new 75#'s or 80#'s.


-- Edited by JD on Monday 20th of February 2012 10:30:46 AM

I wish I had decided to throw more money at that little Suzuki. Oh well, it gives me an excuse to try one of the propane outboards. Lehr is planning something in the 10hp range but it will be as heavy as the other four cycles. 2Cycle Propane! It would be hell getting the oil into those propane tanks.

In California, two-stroke engines are restricted but not prohibited.* Quoting from the state's website:
<ul>[*]Two-stroke engines are not "banned" for use on all waterways in California, nor is there any plan to do so.[*]Carbureted and electronic-injectiontwo-stroke engines are considered high-emission engines. Generally, these engines were manufactured prior to 1999.[*]A carbureted two-stroke engine can emit up to 25-30 percent of its fuel unburned into the water or atmosphere, which is why high-emission engines are prohibited on somelakes.[*]There are no salt-water or river restrictions in California on high-emission two-stroke engines, excluding personal watercraft (vessels such as Jet Skis) bans in some areas. For example, San Francisco has prohibited personal watercraft within 1200 feet of its shoreline. See "Local Restrictions" on our Web page for a list of lakes.[*]Direct injection two-stroke engines, made since 1999, are considered clean emission engines and can be used on every water body in California, with some exceptions not related to emission limits.[*]A new direct injection two-stroke engine will normally have a label sticker (with 1 to 3 stars) on its engine cover indicating that it meets California Air Resources Board emission regulations for 2001, 2004, and 2008 for vessel engine manufacturers.[/list]
The state regulations, from the California Air Resources Board (ARB) Recreational Marine Engine Program, are concerned with the manufacture and sale of NEW marine gasoline two-stroke engines. ("New" means the engine has never been sold to an end-user.) The ARB regulations ordered vessel engine manufacturers to build cleaner emission engines meeting increasingly strict standards with steps in 2001, 2004, and 2008. These ARB regulations do not affect the use of any vessels on waterways, other than the fact that consumers will obtain improved gas mileage from the new models now on the market.

A small number of cities, counties or districts have adopted ordinances on drinking water reservoirs that restrict or ban the use of high emission, carbureted or electronic fuel injection (EFI) two-stroke marine engines.

To date, there are only 11 lakes with use conditions for high emission vessel engines, mostly in northern California. There are no salt-water or river restrictions based solely on high emission vessel engines.

Cleaner technology direct-injection two-stroke marine engines, manufactured since 1999, can be used on all waterways in California, except for some waterways that have generic prohibitions, such as banning all motorboats or all personal watercraft.* (end of quote)

*

markpierce wrote:
In California, two-stroke engines are restricted but not prohibited.* Quoting from the state's website:
<ul>[*]Two-stroke engines are not "banned" for use on all waterways in California, nor is there any plan to do so.[*]Carbureted and electronic-injectiontwo-stroke engines are considered high-emission engines. Generally, these engines were manufactured prior to 1999.[*]A carbureted two-stroke engine can emit up to 25-30 percent of its fuel unburned into the water or atmosphere, which is why high-emission engines are prohibited on somelakes.[*]There are no salt-water or river restrictions in California on high-emission two-stroke engines, excluding personal watercraft (vessels such as Jet Skis) bans in some areas. For example, San Francisco has prohibited personal watercraft within 1200 feet of its shoreline. See "Local Restrictions" on our Web page for a list of lakes.[*]Direct injection two-stroke engines, made since 1999, are considered clean emission engines and can be used on every water body in California, with some exceptions not related to emission limits.[*]A new direct injection two-stroke engine will normally have a label sticker (with 1 to 3 stars) on its engine cover indicating that it meets California Air Resources Board emission regulations for 2001, 2004, and 2008 for vessel engine manufacturers.[/list]
The state regulations, from the California Air Resources Board (ARB) Recreational Marine Engine Program, are concerned with the manufacture and sale of NEW marine gasoline two-stroke engines. ("New" means the engine has never been sold to an end-user.) The ARB regulations ordered vessel engine manufacturers to build cleaner emission engines meeting increasingly strict standards with steps in 2001, 2004, and 2008. These ARB regulations do not affect the use of any vessels on waterways, other than the fact that consumers will obtain improved gas mileage from the new models now on the market.

A small number of cities, counties or districts have adopted ordinances on drinking water reservoirs that restrict or ban the use of high emission, carbureted or electronic fuel injection (EFI) two-stroke marine engines.

To date, there are only 11 lakes with use conditions for high emission vessel engines, mostly in northern California. There are no salt-water or river restrictions based solely on high emission vessel engines.

Cleaner technology direct-injection two-stroke marine engines, manufactured since 1999, can be used on all waterways in California, except for some waterways that have generic prohibitions, such as banning all motorboats or all personal watercraft.* (end of quote)

*

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*I don't think anyone said they were banned.* You just can't buy a new one.* So banned or not once the old ones die there will be no more.

2bucks wrote:
................................ I buy gasoline once per year. I dump whatevers left to a pail to take home for the lawnmower while I'm still in the boathouse. .....................

You don't really transport gasoline in a pail, do you?

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*

rwidman wrote:2bucks wrote:
................................ I buy gasoline once per year. I dump whatevers left to a pail to take home for the lawnmower while I'm still in the boathouse. .....................

You don't really transport gasoline in a pail, do you?

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*

*Sure, an old oil pail. I think you may be thinking open top pail and no, I don't use one of those. Buying oil in 5 gallon pails from the jobber is the best way to get some oils. Hydraulic, transmission and even motor oil if your engine sump is very large. For instance, my motorhome has a C9 Cat engine with a 34 quart pan. Opening 34 quart bottles to pour in would be an all afternoon project. Even 8*1/2 gallon jugs gets tedious.*A couple 5 gallon pails and a pump makes refilling an easy project.

I use gallon jugs in the boat with a single Lehman 120, it's just 3 gallons. If I had twins I'd probably be using pails there too.

It would be hell getting the oil into those propane tanks.


OIL (and dirt ) is usually in most propane , and a good system will use a T with a dead leg pointing down to collect the gunk.

Adding oil to a 2 stroke from an oil tank was done by Steyer Damler Puch (Sears ) in the late 1950's.

FF, I was joking about two stroke propane outboards but I guess with oil injection it could be done.

Thinkin' the same thing as my 2 hp Mariner is now 28 years old and I can no longer get parts for it.

Check it out

Used Boat Equipment has two new propane outboards offered from Lehr. Guess the manufacturer is looking to get the word out. Boat Outboards

Forklift, The prices of the Lehr outboards, on that site, are below the minimum advertised price (MAP) set by Lehr. That dealer will be hearing from Lehr about that soon.
The trick is that Lehr can tell dealers what they can advertise them for, but they can't tell a dealer what to actually sell them for. Any Lehr dealer should be glad to match or beat those prices. We were selling them for less than that at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show. You just need to ask.

HopCar said:

Forklift, The prices of the Lehr outboards, on that site, are below the minimum advertised price (MAP) set by Lehr. That dealer will be hearing from Lehr about that soon.
The trick is that Lehr can tell dealers what they can advertise them for, but they can't tell a dealer what to actually sell them for. Any Lehr dealer should be glad to match or beat those prices. We were selling them for less than that at the Ft. Lauderdale Boat Show. You just need to ask.

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HC,I was surprised at how low the pricing was. And they certainly are a good looking OB. If I were in the market for an outboard I would certainly consider them.

HopCar said:

The 2.5 weighs 37.4 pounds and the short shaft 5 weighs 49.6 pounds. This is about what other four cycle outboards of the same power weigh. I agree with you about weight. I had a little 2HP Suzuiki 2 stroke until recently and it was about a third less heavy than these four strokes. Are any of the manufacturers still making small two stroke engines?

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Weight was a real consideration for me and that's why I chose the Honda 2HP at 27 lb. I think Suzuki has one that weighs a couple pounds more and is water cooled, not air cooled.