Airmar 110WX vs 220WX

I want a wind instrument on my tug. Not sure how bad I need it, but I want it. I'm looking at the Airmar and am not sure I understand the difference between the 110WX and 220WX models.

I do want True wind speed. In my sailing days, I had a masthead unit that delivered wind speed to my (Ray ST60) wind instrument. I assume the wind instrument calculated the apparent vs true wind speed from the analog signal the rotor delivered.

The Airmar 110WAX does not claim to furnish true wind speed on a moving boat, while the 22WX does, using installed GPS etc. data. My question is, will my MFD and various displays not calculate the true wind speed from the various other instruments on board? Do I need the 220WX onboard sensors to give me True Wind Speed?

I have Raymarine ES128 MFD and I70s displays with an evolution200 autopilot and Ray's AIS650, all on the Raymarine proprietary network, which I believe is pretty close to NMEA2000? I am not yet very well versed in this technology if that's not obvious to the reader yet.....

What problems am I getting into if I order this new technology and do I need the more expensive 220WX?

I'm afraid I don't even know if I am asking the right questions.

Thanks for your time and experience.

David

I have the 110. It does true and apparent wind. It does not have a humidity module standard but you can add one. standard on 220. The 220 adds roll pitch and yaw measurements. My MDF does not accept that so I got the 110. Very happy. I may add the humidity modules as it helps with dew point and fog.

I don’t know either but would love it if you figure it all out for me too. I also have Raymarine.

You want to get the 220wx if you want True Wind Speed. The 110wx is designed for stationary mounting as in a land based weather station. There are many additional features of the 220wx that you may/may not need, such as electronic compass, rate Gyro, humidity, temp, etc.
I believe you would need an adaptor to connect to your Raymarine instruments. The 220wx outputs in Nmea 0188 and N2k. We have one installed in a Furuno N2k network and it works great. The electronic compass is accurate enough to provide heading data for the autopilot and radar. The only caution I would make is choose the mounting location carefully, as the unit is very sensitive to the wind. Do not mount it close to any antennae’s or lights as it will affect wind direction readings. Enjoy.
Gary

I just put in a 220 and am happy with its wind measurements but unhappy with the fact its another thing on the network outputting GPS and a ton of stuff my sat compass does, yet with less accuracy. If there was a way to turn the PGNs off I would get the 220, but now wishing I had purchased something a bit simpler.
AC

ArthurC: the 220Wx outputs all the data pgns for the various measurements. You have to go to your network manager or mfd software to turn off the pgns you don’t want to use, or tell the mfd which sensor to use for the data.
On my Furuno, I can go to the data connection screen and check which data sender works with which data receiver I want to use. For instance, I keep the 220’s gps data as a secondary source in case the primary gps burps.
Gary

The real answer lies in your display, not the weather instrument. To compute ground or true wind (I have yet to hear a cogent explanation of how True is different from Ground, but that's another topic), you need some combination of SOG, COG, HDG, and STW. The weather instrument inherently is measuring apparent wind speed and direction, then some math needs to be applied to figure out the others.


The 220WX is also a heading sensor and GPS, so it produces all the above except STW. But I'm not at all sure that it calculates and broadcasts true or ground wind. It's been a while since I owned one, but my money would be on it just broadcasting the component data, and leaving it up to the display to compute whatever it wants.


I know for certain that the Maretron displays can compute and display true and ground winds using a wind instrument like the 110WX. After all, their own, now defunct (thankfully) WSO doesn't report true or ground wind, only apparent wind, and the Maretron displays can calculate and display true and ground. Of course there must be a GPS and/or heading sensor on the network, but they can be any such device and don't need to be part of the WX instrument.


My guess would be that any reasonably modern display device can do the same thing as Maretron.

GGroves said:

ArthurC: the 220Wx outputs all the data pgns for the various measurements. You have to go to your network manager or mfd software to turn off the pgns you don’t want to use, or tell the mfd which sensor to use for the data.
On my Furuno, I can go to the data connection screen and check which data sender works with which data receiver I want to use. For instance, I keep the 220’s gps data as a secondary source in case the primary gps burps.
Gary

Click to expand...

Hi Gary,
Unfortunately it’s not that simple, at least on my system, I have TZTs, TZ Pro and a ton of Maretron and Furuno gear, while you can set the instance (my 220 is set to 199) it’s still throwing a ton of unneeded pgns out there, for instance for gps, it’s the sc33 then gp33 then tzt then 220. For hdg it’s sc33, pg700, then 220. While that seems fine on paper and it’s set both by instance priority but also in the mfd configs, occasionally they get confused. I’ve also noticed some devices ignore instance priority. I suspect this is one reason why n0183 isn’t going away and imo devices like my open array radar and fa170 AIS.
Btw by network manager did you mean n2kanalyzer or actisense?

Thanks
Arthur

As TwistedTree said the WX has gps and heading, I can confirm it computes internally apparent wind speed, true speed, true direction, etc.
If interested I can grab a sniff of the actual pgn output this weekend. I’m not sure if it’s true or magnetic heading readings but fairly certain it’s magnetic.

I have the 220 and it is definitely possible to selectively turn off PGN transmission by using the weathercaster software that can be downloaded from the airmar website. I got the 220 so that I would have an additional redundant source of gps/heading, but for wind data either model will do because any MFD or PC nav software will calculate true wind when provided with apparent wind from the wind sensor (assuming of course that it is also receiving gps info from somewhere).

For what it's worth, I found that cogent explanation I was looking for of the difference between True and Ground wind.


Apparent wind is what a wind instrument on a boat measures, and is obviously influenced by the boats speed and direction of travel.


Ground wind is what would be reported by an instrument stationary on land. It can also be computed by the vector addition of Apparent wind plus SOC/COG.


True wind is what would be reported by an instrument drifting on the water surface, and moving with any water current. It can also be computed by the vector addition of Apparent wind plus STW/HDG.


So Ground is ground referenced, and True is sea surface referenced. And the difference between the two would be set and drift.


This makes total sense. What had confused me is that you can tell a Maretron wind display to show true wind and it will, even though there is no STW available. I'd say that's a bug.

MV Alchemy said:

I have the 220 and it is definitely possible to selectively turn off PGN transmission by using the weathercaster software that can be downloaded from the airmar website. I got the 220 so that I would have an additional redundant source of gps/heading, but for wind data either model will do because any MFD or PC nav software will calculate true wind when provided with apparent wind from the wind sensor (assuming of course that it is also receiving gps info from somewhere).

Click to expand...

Does that setting still exist? I tried to turn it off but couldn’t find it, even asked the Furuno guys at the boatshow with limited success. I’m accessing it via an actisense n2k to usb and the weather caster software.

dwilkieo said:

I do want True wind speed......The Airmar 110WAX does not claim to furnish true wind speed on a moving boat, while the 22WX does..... Do I need the 220WX onboard sensors to give me True Wind Speed?

Click to expand...

The eS128 MFD supports True Wind Speed data. Notice in the link below which compares Lighthouse II with Lighthouse III that both revisions support GRIB Weather data. I don't know if you need 22WX onboard sensors to get True Wind Speed on your eS128 but I'm sure Raymarine can answer your question.

LightHouse 3 Software Updates for eS & gS Series | Raymarine - A Brand by FLIR

dwilkieo said:

I have Raymarine ES128 MFD and I70s displays with an evolution200 autopilot and Ray's AIS650, all on the Raymarine proprietary network, which I believe is pretty close to NMEA2000? I am not yet very well versed in this technology if that's not obvious to the reader yet.....
David

Click to expand...

As others have mentioned, the 220 is the more feature packed instrument and it should calculate True Wind. As twistedtree also posted, the definitions between True, Apparent, and Ground wind are all calculated using other bits of data.

The thing that sets the 220 apart is that it calculates some of those itself, whereas most wind instruments only provide the wind speed, leaving the destination instrument, like your Raymarine, to do the calculation inside of them by using SOG, COG, and STW provided by other instruments.

Almost all instruments do this now - it used to be they did it differently, or required their own sensors, but in my testing, I have not seen this in the last major generation (or two) of all of the manufacturers.

In the case of your Raymarine equipment, I have tested the "es" series and know it does this for you, but if you get the 220 it won't matter.

In order to connect them all, you will need to connect the 220 to your SeaTalkNG network using either a jumper cable, or by buying a SeaTalkNG drop cable, chopping the end off, and adding a NMEA 2000 connector for the 220WX. Alternatively, since it puts out NMEA 0183, you could wire it directly into your chart plotter, but I'd go the former before the latter.

You'll also need to pay attention to length of cabling and location. Going too far just for the wind instrument could mean you need to move your terminator and/or extend things. It would help to know where your current equipment is, and a drawing of how it is all connected.

Arthurc said:

As TwistedTree said the WX has gps and heading, I can confirm it computes internally apparent wind speed, true speed, true direction, etc.
If interested I can grab a sniff of the actual pgn output this weekend. I’m not sure if it’s true or magnetic heading readings but fairly certain it’s magnetic.

Click to expand...

I'd be interested in the actual PGNs. For example, does it send the Wind PGN three times, once each for Apparent, True, and Ground? And if it's sending True, where is it getting STW?

Thank you to everybody that contributed to this thread. I have learned a lot, and I am proceeding with this project slowly. I'm off to help a buddy deliver his sailboat to San Diego and when I get back I should have more time to study and do.

I think the 220WX is in the cards, with the thought that having all of the extra data is a good thing, especially if I want to add same to my ipad, which I run INavX on.

twistedtree said:

I'd be interested in the actual PGNs. For example, does it send the Wind PGN three times, once each for Apparent, True, and Ground? And if it's sending True, where is it getting STW?

Click to expand...

Will try and capture them next weekend, this weekends boat projects experienced a snow delay since the entire western Washington shuts down with any sign of snow...

Have a look at the Bluetooth device made in Zaragosa Spain - Calypso - I have one and its easy to install (self powered from its solar panel) bluetooth to your tablet/phone gives all the data you need, small and fits onto a 16mm screw thread.

In Europe it costa about €400

Arthurc said:

Hi Gary,
Unfortunately it’s not that simple, at least on my system, I have TZTs, TZ Pro and a ton of Maretron and Furuno gear, while you can set the instance (my 220 is set to 199) it’s still throwing a ton of unneeded pgns out there, for instance for gps, it’s the sc33 then gp33 then tzt then 220. For hdg it’s sc33, pg700, then 220. While that seems fine on paper and it’s set both by instance priority but also in the mfd configs, occasionally they get confused. I’ve also noticed some devices ignore instance priority. I suspect this is one reason why n0183 isn’t going away and imo devices like my open array radar and fa170 AIS.
Btw by network manager did you mean n2kanalyzer or actisense?

Thanks
Arthur

Click to expand...

I've had similar challenges with a whole new Furuno system I am installing on my boat which includes TZT2's, PG700, RD-33's, FI-70's, FM-4800, NavPilot 300 and a few other things.

In many cases, on boot up, the TZT2 and NavPilot products will select a different GPS or compass source than the one I've hard selected. This happens as far as I can tell because the other devices are seen on the NMEA 2000 bus first, and so the TZT/NP assume that the one I had chosen before is not available, and auto-switches to the new one.

I've confirmed this behavior a number of times, and as a result, I've done what you're asking to do - turn off certain devices/PGNs so that only the ones I really want are used, or start specific things up in a particular order. Annoying.

I have been looking at an ultrasonic wind sensor for this whole new setup as well, and had used the LCJ Capteurs one on my previous boat, but their US reseller (Fugawi) stopped carrying them. I had been working directly with the factory to get one, but there is a lot of confusion around import and other pieces. And it is only wind, nothing else.

I think at this point I am going to go with the Airmar WS-120 since all of my other devices (Furuno, Raymarine, Maretron, B&G) will calculate true wind, and I don't need another compass source that is high up on the boat rolling around.

stevemitchell said:

In many cases, on boot up...

Click to expand...

Heh, the saving grace with my ancient NavNet3D MFD12's is they take sooooo long to boot that everything else is absolutely certain to be already running.

Meanwhile upgrades to the AC will see installing a new zone unit probably pretty close to where the PG-700 is installed. Someone previous to us put an H2183 all the way up the mast. No idea why, but it's not staying. At least that leaves a mount for a 220WX.

Supposedly the Weathercaster software is able to dis/enable what PGNs are sent.

wkearney99 said:

Heh, the saving grace with my ancient NavNet3D MFD12's is they take sooooo long to boot that everything else is absolutely certain to be already running.

Supposedly the Weathercaster software is able to dis/enable what PGNs are sent.

Click to expand...

Even my new TZT2's take a while to boot, but I generally leave large portions of the N2K network on 24x7 - AIS, temperature sensors, tank sensors, Nemo, SignalK, and soon my wind/weather station - that when things power up in various orders, funky things happen.

Yup, Weathercaster can disable various things, but I am just not that enthused about paying $700 more for a bit more data in the 220WX when the 120WX is pretty competitive to all the other solutions out there.

That's one part of my winter upgrade including the Airmar weather module, powering the bus independently of the plotters. This to allow other devices on the boat to obtain the data without the power-hungry plotters being active all the time.

Right now there's a Furuno GP-320B that's plugged via 0183 into one of the plotters, and the fed out again via another one of the plotters (they share Ethernet) to the autopilot. This works, as I'm not likely to be using the autopilot without a plotter being active, but does trap GPS behind the plotter. Thus the 220WX gets me GPS for other things. I'm tempted to replace the GP-320B as there have been occasional losses of fix, without any other obvious reasons. For the sake of not hijacking this thread, I've asked it over here:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/gps-module-upgrade-43203.html#post743039

When I purchased our Defever in 2016, it had an old RM radar w/ screen, an old 9" Garmin chart plotter, and a RM autopilot networked over a RM network. I upgraded all instruments with Furuno TZT2s (2), doppler radar, air, etc. I kept the RM autopilot as it had a handy wireless remote control and worked very well for my needs. I didn't network the AP, but kept it standalone.

I elected to go with the Airmar 220WX as it had an electronic heading unit that the Furuno Tech Set said would provide the necessary heading info for the MFDs and radar. Thus I saved the cost of the heading sensor from Furuno. Also figured it couldn't hurt to have an extra gps.

So far, I have had no data conflicts with the TZT2s using the various sensors. The sensors (Vesper Watchmate AIS, 220wx, backup depth, etc are powered separately from the TZT2's and radar, and are usually left on so when they boot up, the data is already on the network.

GGroves said:

I elected to go with the Airmar 220WX as it had an electronic heading unit that the Furuno Tech Set said would provide the necessary heading info for the MFDs and radar. Thus I saved the cost of the heading sensor from Furuno. Also figured it couldn't hurt to have an extra gps.

Click to expand...

That makes sense. I just installed a new NavPilot 300 bundle that came with the Furuno PG-700 heading sensor which I have installed nice and low in the boat on the center line. Having another one higher up might be OK, but I'd rather have it low in the boat.

I have 7 GPS sources already: 2x TZT2's, 1x Raymarine Axiom, 1x B&G Vulcan, Vesper XB-8000 AIS transponder, Furuno FM-4800 VHF, and one of the other three radios depending on which one is on (ICOM/SH/B&G). I'm fine with having another one, but I don't really need one!

GGroves said:

So far, I have had no data conflicts with the TZT2s using the various sensors. The sensors (Vesper Watchmate AIS, 220wx, backup depth, etc are powered separately from the TZT2's and radar, and are usually left on so when they boot up, the data is already on the network.

Click to expand...

I have a similar setup, but I definitely see instability or at least get errors as devices search for various data types when things first are powered up on the MFD side. Most everything else runs 24x7.

wkearney99 said:

Heh, the saving grace with my ancient NavNet3D MFD12's is they take sooooo long to boot that everything else is absolutely certain to be already running.

Meanwhile upgrades to the AC will see installing a new zone unit probably pretty close to where the PG-700 is installed. Someone previous to us put an H2183 all the way up the mast. No idea why, but it's not staying. At least that leaves a mount for a 220WX.

Supposedly the Weathercaster software is able to dis/enable what PGNs are sent.

Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I think in order to use Weathercaster you need a USB interface, and I think it has to be Airmar's, which is another $370!

stevemitchell said:

In order to connect them all, you will need to connect the 220 to your SeaTalkNG network using either a jumper cable, or by buying a SeaTalkNG drop cable, chopping the end off, and adding a NMEA 2000 connector for the 220WX. Alternatively, since it puts out NMEA 0183, you could wire it directly into your chart plotter, but I'd go the former before the latter.

You'll also need to pay attention to length of cabling and location. Going too far just for the wind instrument could mean you need to move your terminator and/or extend things. It would help to know where your current equipment is, and a drawing of how it is all connected.

Click to expand...

This is very helpful. I have spent quite a few hours cleaning up the pile of loose wires and connectors inside my instrument panel box so that I could sort it all out and have it tied down and pretty.

I have cobbed together some cut and paste symbols from the Raymarine Seatalkng reference manual into a good likeness of my system. According to the Seatlkng reference manual, my system does not have to be balanced because it is rather small. Just the same, I have looked at the LEN values for each piece of gear and it is pretty close to balanced. I have another 5 way connector ordered and can adjust the power input further if required. I think I have settled on the Airmar 120wx, as I believe it will give me the information required to display what I want. It is my understanding that I can buy an adapter cable from Raymarine for the N2K cable that comes with the Airmar.

The Backbone and spurs are all there very close together except for the rudder sensor, the EV2 heading sensor and the autopilot. The rudder position sensor appears to have been adapted to the ng backbone -- is it an nmea0183 holdover? Everything was upgraded except the steering pump and the rudder position sensor. The new autopilot came with the rudder position sensor but the installers suggested I didn't need to pay them to run the new wire when the original worked fine. ??

I have attached a file showing my layout. I'm new at this, so I hope it shows up properly.....

David

dwilkieo said:

I have attached a file showing my layout. I'm new at this, so I hope it shows up properly.....

David

Click to expand...

Oops. In the clear dawn of a new morning with a cup of coffee in hand, I realize my system chart was incorrect. The Rudder position sensor hooks directly to the autopilot box. The "odd" cable into the Seatalkng network must be from the Fusion RA70 stereo.

David

dwilkieo said:

Oops. In the clear dawn of a new morning with a cup of coffee in hand, I realize my system chart was incorrect. The Rudder position sensor hooks directly to the autopilot box. The "odd" cable into the Seatalkng network must be from the Fusion RA70 stereo.



David

Click to expand...

That makes more sense. The only N2K connected autopilot rudder indicator i know of is the Simrad rf25. All others connect to the AP, and the AP in turn reports the rudder position on N2K.

I ended up going with the LCJ Capteurs CV7 ultrasonic wind sensor instead of the Airmar. I had one on my previous boat, and the accuracy is quite a bit higher than the Airmar. I already have outdoor temp and humidity, so I ordered the CV7 with the WindyPlug which gives me barometric pressure.

Installed it this weekend and finally have wind data on the boat.

stevemitchell said:

I ended up going with the LCJ Capteurs CV7 ultrasonic wind sensor instead of the Airmar. I had one on my previous boat, and the accuracy is quite a bit higher than the Airmar. I already have outdoor temp and humidity, so I ordered the CV7 with the WindyPlug which gives me barometric pressure.

Installed it this weekend and finally have wind data on the boat.

Click to expand...

I had not heard of the LCJ.... Looks alike a good unit and is priced well. I had already ordered the AirMar 120WX and I am happy enough with it. It is plug-n-play with the ES128 using an N2K drop cable into a Raymarine SeatalkNG adapter cable - not afraid to strip wires, but no need and it's a nice clean installation. It gives me apparent wind speed and direction as well as ground wind speed and ground wind direction. It also reports air temperature and barometric pressure into the N2K. I didn't opt for the Humidity module.

My next experiment is to see if the ES128 will share the N2K data from the AirMar with my iPad Pro nav software via the WiFi hotspot. If not, I will maybe try an N2K to USB dongle of some kind. I'm starting to learn a bit more about this stuff. Fun.