2000 MS 390 listing issue...again

Okay, I am the first to point out out that sometimes group help is better than going solo...so here goes.

I was under the assumption that my listing to port was due to water in my swim platform. After completing all that work, and eliminating that situation as the cause for the listing, the boat is still listing to port. Here is what I have done so far:

1. checked the fuel tank vents, and all seem clear.
2. made sure both valves were open that facilitate the fuel tanks equalizing.
3. then pulled off the equalizing hose (challenging as it was on for 18+ years) to verify both valves were not clogged, which they are not, as well as the hose does not have any blockage in it. Boat still lists to port.
4. then removed both fuel fill caps to ensure proper venting just to be sure, and boat still lists to port.

Now I have closed the stbd fuel supply valve to my engine, and have the cat diesel just draw from the port side to use up fuel in that tank as a jury rig fix.

Anyone have any other suggestions on this? I constantly get VHF and cell calls saying my trawler looks like it is taking on water, but all bilges are dry. The weight distribution of furnishings is the same as it was when I bought her, so can't say too much weight on port side.

Water tanks are full, and equalized. I did put fuel in both tanks while in the yard, as it was easier and cheaper than going to marina fuel station.

Suggestions anyone?

I have been operating our MS 390 for ten seasons and have the same issue, not sure if there is a "cure". With the fuel transfer valve(s) open, fuel is going to flow to the heavier side of the boat even if it is only off balance a minor amount. First tip is to fill all tanks (fuel and water) and see if the list is still there, it probably is to a lesser extent. So, suggestions, have a bunch of people sit on the light side, with the transfer valve open, close when the tanks equalize, not too practical, but creates a base line. Balance by water usage, switching tanks as required to "balance" I do use this method. My main method is to return fuel from the engine to the port tank only with the transfer valve closed. When the port tank is "heavy" I open the transfer valve to equalize the balance, repeat as required (every two to three hours while underway). You do need to take care and not overflow the tank being filled. Keeping the tanks full (especially the fuel tanks) lessens the tendency to list due to the fuel transferring through the open cross tank hose. I hope someone has figured out an better way and shares it with us!

suntansailor said:

Water tanks are full, and equalized (?) . I did put fuel in both tanks while in the yard, as it was easier and cheaper than going to marina fuel station. Suggestions anyone?

Click to expand...

Equalized? What does that mean?

Why not run one water tank down until boat trim is OK. I keep one water tank and fuel tank lower on one side to keep boat trim acceptable. A very common and necessary tactic to compensate for unequal weights due to placement of items such as heaters, gensets, dinghy, freezer, stores etc.

And I never ever leave the fuel or water tank crossover valves open. If I do trim gets off and quite quickly.

Have this issue with my pilot, I find the tanks balance out over the week when not is use. My father in law said his '79 MS had the same issue. Even after he replaced the tanks and hoses.

I put the heavier folks to starboard.

Keeping your boat level does not necessarily happen on its own. It requires active input from the captain.

Manage your storage. If it is listing to port when tanks are all full, store your movable heavy items on the S/B side. As far off the centreline as possible (tool boxes, spare anchor, oil, spare fuel, etc)
Use fuel and water from the port side until you start listing to starboard, then swap over.

On my boat, I primarily use my water tanks to keep the boat level, as these tanks are furthest from the centreline and therefore have the most effect on listing.
I never equalize the tanks as I find water/fuel will flow to the lower tank and make the problem worse.

Yep, most all boats have a list of some amount. Mine sits an inch low on stbd with fuel tanks equal. So I tend to keep more fuel in port and that does the trick. Water tank is center line so no help there.

Agree with others: if you leave tank equalizing line valves open, that will aggravate the list. Keep it closed and trim the boat with tank levels

Is this boat new to you? Could be that additional equipment has been installed by a previous owner that has added weight to one side and it needs to be balanced out by having more fuel or water on one side. Now that all tanks are full it has thrown it out of balance. Maybe a spare anchor and chain rode, new tender up top that is not in the middle of the boat, new heavier furniture in the saloon?

Even if the boat is basically standard, that doesn’t mean that it was ever on an even keel. How much weight does it take to level the boat out? I would stack on some weight until the boat is level. Measure the weight so you are not guessing and then you can make a plan as to what you need to relocate in order to get the boat level. Then you can make a choice as to whether you move some equipment around or add some permanent weight. Obviously the first choice would be to move something but in some cases some lead will work better since it is more concentrated.

I had one boat that just would not sit level with tanks equalized and storage area was not available for shifting things so I ended up putting a couple of water bladders in the empty sidewall on the port side and filled until the boat was level. Never looked back for as long as I had the boat it sat level, unless of course all your guests decide to go to one side

The galley is to port, as is the 2nd cabin. To starboard is the steering station, head and the stairs to the flybridge.

I also believe the batteries are to port in the oem setup

It`s odd. Our boat had a list,I removed a quantity of lead ingots in the ER, which almost fixed it 100%,near enough for me. They must have been balancing/compensating for something the longterm PO had onboard, no idea what, and whatever it was we did not have it. So the compensatory load of lead to balance a list became a list the other way, until I removed the 20 kg lead ingots.

I’d recommend using up the fuel first and then set about ballasting the boat for proper trim. Once that’s accomplished refill the tanks and do it again. I’ve seen more than one boat have its bootstripe repainted to conceal the fact that the boat wasn’t floating on her designer’s lines.

This is an oft-discussed topic in the Mainship owners forum (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mainship/info). Various solutions have been proposed and implemented. Or:

Hi ALL.. We have been discussing this condition since 1999. The list is
caused by all the heavy equipment, fridge , galley, etc, being on the
port side.. There have been a lot of hair brained schemes, since then to
correct this, from simple to downright dangerous! This condition has NO
effect on the safety & performance of the boat, but adding a lot of
weight, which if broken loose in a seaway, can give U a really bad day,
to closing off various water & fuel valves, are a waste of time,
especially if you have to open or close valves in a seaway... Look, this
Boating, & supposed to be relaxing......... Stop being so Anal & forget
it.. I broufgt this up, at the factory in 2000 with one of the designers
& he said, to stand on the dock & look at the boat, then cut pieces off
theheal of your shoe until the boat becomes plumb...............Problem
solved!...........Ken, Tampa

Click to expand...

If the hull is cored have you checked for water intrusion?

2000 MS 390 listing issue

All, thanks for all the great suggestions. However the problem did not exist before, and no extra gear has been installed. I am sorry, but my boat did not list previously, and I want it to be level.

The ONLY thing I have done is add fuel to both tanks, and also added water.

The water tank is easy to see that both are equal in levels after being filled, so that is not the culprit.

The diesel tanks are the ones that you can't see visually, and fuel gauges seem to be less than accurate. Getting a dip stick in there is being a contortionist at best.

After taking in all the suggestions from everyone, my plan is to close the port and stbd valves for the equalizer tube. Then will shut off the starboard tank feeder valve to the cat engine, and draw from the port tank only to see if this will equalize the weight loads, and make the listing more acceptable in time from use of the engine while depleting diesel from that tank.

Once level, I will reopen the equalizer valves. When adding any diesel fuel from this point on, I will make sure to add EQUAL liters on each tank.

Again, thanks for the input!

bayview said:

If the hull is cored have you checked for water intrusion?

Click to expand...

No...Mainship never used coring below the waterline on any 350/390's.


As far as I know, no pre-Marlow Mainships ever had a cored hull (below the waterline).

Get the lead out?

Before purchasing our 2003 390, I noticed at haul-out that it had been listing to Stbd, the waterline on the stbd side was almost 2" higher than on the port.


The broker went through all of the same explanations and potential cures I'm seeing in this thread.


A couple weeks later I found about 300lbs of lead ingots lined up outside the outboard starboard stringer, just inboard of the fuel tank. I was told at the time that this was a common practice.


After topping off the water and fuel tanks, and loading up the refrigerator and galley with a full load of provisions, I began removing ingots until the list went away. I think I removed about 200lbs of the total, and now she sits perfectly level.


My observation: it doesn't take much weight at all to create some list! It only took 200lbs of lead ingots positioned just inboard of the Stbd fuel tank to cause a pronounced list.



The easiest way to manage listing is using the water tanks. Mainship installed separate supply lines from the tanks, and each has it's own shut-off valve, so it's easy to balance the boat with water-ballast.

I'm surprised the boat never listed before. The 350/390 has a natural list to port of a few degrees. My 350 does, as does my buddies 390. I put about 750lbs of lead ballast to starboard to correct the list.

ballasting with tankage is not a great idea. Once you start consuming fuel or water, you slowly reintroduce the list again.

Load the boat the way it would normally be loaded, then start loading ballast until the list and trim is correct. If correcting for the list, make sure you spread the ballast fore and aft to prevent an imbalance in trim.

2000 MS 390 listing issue

Pictures are worth a thousand words...taking her out on Sat/Sun to my favorite beaches, and to burn up some fuel on the port tank side.

Heck, my 400 Mainship lists, too. Pretty much to the starboard side. Opposite all the heavy stuff.

I solved it by moving some of the cases of beer to the other side......

Seevee said:

Heck, my 400 Mainship lists, too. Pretty much to the starboard side. Opposite all the heavy stuff.

I solved it by moving some of the cases of beer to the other side......

Click to expand...

It lists to the same side as the galley, doesn't it? That is the direction the 350 and 390 list. Our galleys are to port same as the list. I would consider the cabinets, counter, oven/stove and fridge along with all of the contents stored in the cabinets as the 'heavy stuff'.

suntansailor said:

All, thanks for all the great suggestions. However the problem did not exist before, and no extra gear has been installed. I am sorry, but my boat did not list previously, and I want it to be level.

The ONLY thing I have done is add fuel to both tanks, and also added water.

The water tank is easy to see that both are equal in levels after being filled, so that is not the culprit.

The diesel tanks are the ones that you can't see visually, and fuel gauges seem to be less than accurate. Getting a dip stick in there is being a contortionist at best.

After taking in all the suggestions from everyone, my plan is to close the port and stbd valves for the equalizer tube. Then will shut off the starboard tank feeder valve to the cat engine, and draw from the port tank only to see if this will equalize the weight loads, and make the listing more acceptable in time from use of the engine while depleting diesel from that tank.

Once level, I will reopen the equalizer valves. When adding any diesel fuel from this point on, I will make sure to add EQUAL liters on each tank.

Again, thanks for the input!

Click to expand...

Don't open your equalizing valves once it is level. Your list will likely return. Equal levels in the tanks do not necessarily mean you will have a level boat. It will vary depending on the boat fit out and the storage. Things like the level of your holding tank will change the list.

If you can't vary your storage or ballast to level the boat, then you have to vary your tank levels. Whichever tanks (water or fuel) are furthest from the centreline will be the most sensitive to changing your list.

Just adjust the list by usage of water or fuel.

Listing

My Grand Banks lists similarly to your boat. I have done all the fuel balancing exercises, but having just sat in my engine room I noticed there are 3 ac compressors and my refrigeration compressor all on the same side of the boat. I am not willing to reengineer these compressors but am now considering adding ballast. Good luck!

Hi, does your boat have round deck hatches on swimplatform ? If so, mainship would have completed the platform recall they had. Platforms were taking on water, they put a thruhull that allows water to come back into aft bilge and they would re-5200 the whole platform to stop leaks. But that would fill up and carry a ton of water, maybe not your issue ?

2000 MS 390 listing issue

Trawler Expert,

My trawler did not have the swim platform warranty issue resolved by factory.

I had to do it all myself (see my post on this subject and pics).

Swim platform is dry now with all the work I did, and removed wet foam. Perhaps that previous weight in swim platform is playing a factor on this listing, but found water in all four sections of swim platform when I disassembled it so don't think so.

Water and fuel are the only added items to trawler. Water tanks I can visually are equal, so fuel needs to be equalized. And based upon everyone's suggestions, I will close off the equalized valves as they seem to be useless in resolving all this.

I will post my results on the actions I am planning to remedy this darn list.

A mechanic buddy of mine is offering a "simpler" suggestion now...a 12v fuel transfer pump taking fuel from port tank and depositing it to starboard tank. Found a pump on Amazon $34.95, so will order. This may "speed up" the equalizing process vs the using of cat diesel engine to do so.

Shrew said:

It lists to the same side as the galley, doesn't it? That is the direction the 350 and 390 list. Our galleys are to port same as the list. I would consider the cabinets, counter, oven/stove and fridge along with all of the contents stored in the cabinets as the 'heavy stuff'.

Click to expand...

Shrew,

The galley on my MS400 is on starboard, but the list was to port. I suspect the reason was we had a ton of stuff on the port side. The sofa storage had a bunch of pots pans cookers, spare prop and parts. Under the port booth seat I made a storage area that contained 75 to 100 cans of soup, beans, etc. In the bunk room (second state room) we had all of the containers of liquids, booze, food stuff, beer, more parts and more can goods. Also a vise, hammer, drills, saws and several parts boxes.

The galley cabinets didn't have heavy stuff... paper goods, baggies, and the plates, cups were mostly light weight and didn't have much of them.

And, when I said moving the beer cases to the starboard side worked, I was serious.

2000 MS listing issue

I have a 1997 MS 350/390 Trawler that has a constant list to starboard. I too, have spent many hours trying to figure out why. I have a single Yanmar 6LYA engine and have spent many hours measuring fuel and water tank sizes and offsets only to conclude that they are balanced.
I did determine that the fuel return feed only goes to the starboard tank so that when the port tank is nearly empty I still have almost 1/3 fuel in the starboard tank. However, when I carefully fill both tanks (there is no crossover), the boat still lists slightly to starboard.
I have concluded that it must be a minor irregularity in the hull design and have lived at peace with it. Two previous boats I have owned had similar hull irregularities, one was a sailboat that could sail 10 deg. closer to the wind on one side over the other.
My advice is as long as the list is only a few inches and the water line stripe is still above water, accept it as a minor idiosyncrasy of a wonderful boat.

Hi Doug, thanks for the input.

The simple fact that I did not have any list previously, makes me believe this situation can be remedied.

My list is dramatic...almost 3-4" above water line on stbd, and on portside my white accent line is well below the water with algae growing on it. My anti fouling top paint line is 3" under water.

When the only thing I added is water and fuel to this boat, one of these has to be the culprit.

So my water tanks levels are equal, my next goal is to transfer pump fuel from port tank to stbd with equalizer valves closed, pumping slowly to see any effects.

If this does not work, then I have run out of solutions (adding ballast to a boat that never had it previously does not make sense to this sailor).

The 12v transfer pump should arrive here from Amazon next week, and will see what that accomplishes...

Ours has a slight list to port. Obviously that is where most of the equipment is located including batteries. Take a look under the seats in the flybridge. I was amazed how much crap I wound up with over the years in there. Since its so high its very easy to compensate list up there. I keep all my dinghy stuff, spare generator battery, lines, etc on the starboard side. When i take that stuff out the boat lists to port. Also The boats were built with a sofa bed on the starboard side. Some folks have taken the sofa bed out and put in two chairs that weigh 200 lbs less.
John

2000 MS 390 listing issue

Latest update on listing issue...I ordered the diesel fuel transfer pump from Amazon, hooked up appropriate hoses to it, and figured it would take just 3-4 minutes to transfer fuel from Port tank (listing side) to Starboard tank.

Didn't figure on a 90 degree turn on fuel filler hose into tank, so hose would not go down into tank no matter how much I pushed. So then had to pull off the supply fuel line from port tank to cat engine, and attach pump to that, to transfer the fuel, using some reducer connectors. It worked, but of course at a slower pace.

While I was down in engine area, I transferred all spare back up oil & transmission containers from port to stbd side as many of you suggested to shift weight to stbd.

Now I am happy to report boat has almost no listing. So in future, when I fuel up, I will put in exactly the same amount of fuel in each tank (I shut off equalizer hose valves), so in theory should not experience the problem again.

Many thanks for all the suggestions from fellow forum owners...the one that said just "live with it" was not one I could embrace, as I wanted it like it was before.

Happy level sailing now!