Rose Point's Nemo Gateway product

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I've been using the Rose Point (makers of Coastal Explorer) Nemo gateway for a little over two years now, and have made a variety of posts here on TF about it. They formally released it a while ago, and I finally got around to doing a blog entry describing it in more detail if anyone is interested.

Adventures of Tanglewood: Rose Point Navigation's Nemo Interface

I have no affiliation with Rose Point other than being a happy customer.
 
Agreed, it’s a great product for getting all my nmea to udp for iPad or to CE software.
It’s taken a backseat in my setup as I went to all NavNet, that said I still use it regularly and it’s great for understanding what’s happening across your network.
 
Agreed, it’s a great product for getting all my nmea to udp for iPad or to CE software.
It’s taken a backseat in my setup as I went to all NavNet, that said I still use it regularly and it’s great for understanding what’s happening across your network.

Have you tried to see if MaxSea can receive the data via UDP? I don't know what they support, but the current data over UDP is apparently a wide used defacto standard.
 
Good question, no I haven’t. I do know that CE logs the data so I may be able to regularly scrape the log and then parse. I’ve decided my whole logging idea has become a summer/in trip project. I do at least now have my TMP100 all setup.
 
I hadn’t seen that before and looks like it would help me capture info but it appears to be all offline meaning you can’t do real-time analysis, a great example of a usecase I want to build for is looking at EGT in relation to RPM.
 
I hadn’t seen that before and looks like it would help me capture info but it appears to be all offline meaning you can’t do real-time analysis, a great example of a usecase I want to build for is looking at EGT in relation to RPM.

It might not be as sophisticated as you want, but I have done a bunch of real-time analysis just using graphs in N2KView. For example, when I was redesigning my ER cooling system, I had side by side temp graphs for outside temp and ER temp. You could do the same with EGT and RPM. I have a couple of N2KView pages that are just diagnostic and experimentation pages for whatever I'm obsessing over at the time.
 
Good point although I have been trying to avoid buying N2K view as it’s expensive for something I’m questioning if I would use much (once my systems are dialed in). Although all that said I’m about triple over my original budget and couldn’t be happier.. At this rate I’ll likely be posting questions about how to setup n2kview soon :)

Have you used N2K mobile? That might be an interesting option but I doubt it’s as powerful.
 
Agreed, it’s a great product for getting all my nmea to udp for iPad or to CE software.
It’s taken a backseat in my setup as I went to all NavNet, that said I still use it regularly and it’s great for understanding what’s happening across your network.

Could you explain the role of NEMO in your NavNet environment please? I presume you have a TZT or TZ2T system, so perhaps NEMO is multiplex'ing in legacy 0183 gear? I'm curious because I'm planning a migration from my NN3D MFD12 system to a PC-based MaxSea/Nobeltec TimeZero (which I already run on my laptop networked with my MFD12 and love)...so I'm staying Furuno but want to do without an MFD. I have perfectly good 0183 gear (a/pilot, hdg sensor, GPS, depth, AIS/DSC) and only a little N2K gear (back-up depth; back-up gps). I can retain my current DRS4D radar & network sounder. I'm researching suitable monitors for my fully protected lower helm at the moment. I've pretty well settled on NEMO for its ability to get 0183 & N2K onto Ethernet.
 
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Today my Nemo isn’t a core part of the system but rather used to get nmea to the iPads and also to my backup nav pc which runs CE.
I made the TZT2 be the focal point in the PH and FB so they do the translation of Nmea to navnet. I don’t think Nemo could do that but I know there at TZ compatible usb dongles for both n0183 and 2k.

On monitors I ended up going with Dell 22” touch screens, works really well and if I ever get in the situation They won’t go dim enough etc I’ll just use the tzt, done a bit of night running and haven’t been a problem yet. They are also on arms so can be moved around, the starboard one can also be pulled out and display an appletv for my kid on long days when I don’t need 3 screens. It’s early days but I use the tzt for nav, the left screen for a zoomed out view and the right for radar overlay.

Attached is a picture of the ph remodel.

AC
 

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Thanks Arthur C. Those Dell monitors look great, but are too big for my helm. I only have room for a 15.6" monitor, same size approx. as you TZT2 MFD.


I can confirm NEMO works fine with NavNet. NEMO exports data as TCP and/or UDP onto ethernet and NavNet/TimeZero accepts either/both.


Interested in why you chose TZT2 over TZT? Seems like lots of folks are doing this though I understand Furuno originally thought TZT2 would be more for smaller vessels, given built-in gps and sounder. Larger, brighter screen?
 
I've had a Nemo Gateway on my last boat, and the new current one, and wrote about it earlier in 2018: Nemo gateway - easy NMEA networking for your boat.

I have used Coastal Explorer for years as well, and the Nemo makes it super easy to use wherever the PC is situated on the boat.

However, I am installing Furuno equipment on my new boat and have been experimenting with the Nemo and TimeZero on the PC.

The full system plan is to have multiple TZT2 MFDs, a NavPilot 300, and a DRS4D-NXT radar. I'll be using Coastal Explorer and TimeZero on two Surface Pro PCs depending on what mood I am in, along with SignalK and a bunch of other open source stuff.

I would prefer to drive the autopilot using CE or TZ from the PC.

I don't have the MFD or radar installed yet, but I do have the NavPilot 300 (which is a really nice AP BTW) installed and configured, but am having difficulties getting TZ to do anything with it using Nemo.

I know that eventually if I connect my PC running TZ to the Ethernet network that my TZT2's and radar will live on, that I should be able to create routes and waypoints on TZ and have the AP nav from that data (hopefully!) but I would also like a backup method of being able to use Nemo.

I can confirm that TZ can use the Nemo UDP stream to both send and receive NMEA data, and I see navigation/autopilot NMEA 0183 sentences arriving at the Nemo from TZ, but the auto pilot never seems to allow me to navigate to a waypoint. So I can confirm that TZ does work with the UDP stream at least for consuming what is coming out of Nemo.

I think there might be missing sentences or data from TZ -> Nemo, but I haven't figured out what quite yet. Still some additional experimentation with different combos of 0183 sentences. Just wondering if anyone else has tried this?

CE -> Nemo -> NavPilot 300 works perfectly, which is not surprising since CE and Nemo are known to work together well.
 
On the Nemo browser, can you see the AP data coming from the TZ? I presume it's 0183 sentences from TZ to Nemo? Or is TZ able to send N2K PGNs? And is the AP on N2K? You might have to set up a translation from TZ 0183 to N2K. But I'm poking in the dark here since I've only used Nemo with CE on the PC side of things.
 
On the Nemo browser, can you see the AP data coming from the TZ? I presume it's 0183 sentences from TZ to Nemo? Or is TZ able to send N2K PGNs? And is the AP on N2K? You might have to set up a translation from TZ 0183 to N2K. But I'm poking in the dark here since I've only used Nemo with CE on the PC side of things.

Yup, sure can. I validated that already. I'm seeing APB and VTG sentences continually from TZ. It is all 0183 sentences - TZ does not do N2K over UDP/TCP.



My understanding is that any 0183 sentence arriving at the Nemo via TCP/UDP will be converted to its matching N2K sentence, but I could be wrong. I don't see any options in Talker Options to actually generate autopilot PGNs for N2K.

With CE I agree - it just works, and works very well. Just thought I should at least try TZ with Nemo as I can see that being a use case.

I've attached some screen shots of the Nemo data and config.
 

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OK, I think that's the issue. CE speaks native N2K PGNs, and is once of the few (perhaps only) nav software that does.


I'm working from memory (my Nemo is in a box in storage waiting for the next boat), but I think you need to go to the N2K section and look at generated PGNs there. You need to generate the AP PGNs, and I think that's where you do it. When you select the PGN to generate, I think you can then tell it where to get the source data, and that would be the TZ UDP port.


The page you posted I think is where you generate sentences to send out on that 0183 UDP port. You want to get the data FROM there, not send it TO there.


Hope this helps, and please let me know how you make out as I will likely want to do something similar down the road.
 
OK, I think that's the issue. CE speaks native N2K PGNs, and is once of the few (perhaps only) nav software that does.

Correct. I've yet to come across any PC-based software that speaks native NMEA 2000. Most rely on a USB dongle or something else to convert it.

I've got the Actisense NGT, older Coastal Explorer USB N2K interface, Maretron USB 100, and at least two others I forget. Most of those are taking 0183 and converting it to 2000.

I was trying to see if the Nemo at least did what the above does - take 0183 and convert to 2000 for AP stuff. I know I can use one of the above to do this, but I wanted a WiFi solution as a backup.

I'm working from memory (my Nemo is in a box in storage waiting for the next boat), but I think you need to go to the N2K section and look at generated PGNs there. You need to generate the AP PGNs, and I think that's where you do it. When you select the PGN to generate, I think you can then tell it where to get the source data, and that would be the TZ UDP port.


The page you posted I think is where you generate sentences to send out on that 0183 UDP port. You want to get the data FROM there, not send it TO there.


Hope this helps, and please let me know how you make out as I will likely want to do something similar down the road.

Yup, I went there too, just didn't post a screen shot. That's where I tried first, and went to see if I could manually configure the PGNs that are being generated to the NMEA 2000 network.

If you take a look at the screen shot below, the list of available PGNs to generate is extremely short, and does not include any auto pilot PGNs.

I tried choosing alternate devices to send as to see if the list changes, but it does not. It looks like a fixed list.

I'm wondering if this is done on purpose so that you have to use CE to do this?
 

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OK, if that's all that's on the PGN list, then I agree with your assessment. CE speaks native N2K so that goes right through Nemo onto N2K.


The only other way I can think of would be to connect one of the Nemo talkers to the NavPilot's 0183 input, and forward the sentences there. Then there is no translation needed. I had my NavPilot set up with both N2K and 0183. That way it would still work even if N2K was completely dead.
 
OK, if that's all that's on the PGN list, then I agree with your assessment. CE speaks native N2K so that goes right through Nemo onto N2K.


The only other way I can think of would be to connect one of the Nemo talkers to the NavPilot's 0183 input, and forward the sentences there. Then there is no translation needed. I had my NavPilot set up with both N2K and 0183. That way it would still work even if N2K was completely dead.

I'm using a NavPilot 300 which is a newer product from Furuno, and does not have NMEA 0183. It is 100% NMEA 2000 which is super nice since I don't have to run proprietary cables from various bits and pieces around the boat.

My NMEA 2000 network will definitely be one of the more critical things to keep running on the boat. My last two boats have had very extensive networks including a "production" network with critical items, a "secondary" network for things that aren't as critical (temp sensors in the cabin, etc.) and a "test" network for new stuff. Same on this boat, so I'm not worried about N2K itself dying. More worried about Nemo dying, or CE/Laptop dying and having a secondary way to get AP stuff to the pilot itself.

I still have MFDs and several other things that can do it as well, just was trying to figure out if Nemo would too. Now that I know it can't, I will make sure I have one of the PC-to-N2K interfaces nearby in case of an issue.
 
I think NEMO is a robust electronic NMEA conversion solution but I found the learning curve on CE to be fairly steep and the interface a bit idiosyncratic. Also apart from the free charting on CE it only supports C Map which I dont like for various reasons the main one being their upgrade policy.

NEMO doesn’t support Maretron N2K View because they want a dongle to convert it so you would have to run two NMEA/Wifi interfaces so while I would like to have N2K View running on my Ipad I think the solution would be too complex for me.

Has anyone implemented a combined NMEA/Wifi system or have any suggestions? I am addicted to Sonar Charts so my primary navigation app will be Navionics UFN.

Thanks

Paul
 
I think NEMO is a robust electronic NMEA conversion solution but I found the learning curve on CE to be fairly steep and the interface a bit idiosyncratic. Also apart from the free charting on CE it only supports C Map which I dont like for various reasons the main one being their upgrade policy.

NEMO doesn’t support Maretron N2K View because they want a dongle to convert it so you would have to run two NMEA/Wifi interfaces so while I would like to have N2K View running on my Ipad I think the solution would be too complex for me.

Has anyone implemented a combined NMEA/Wifi system or have any suggestions? I am addicted to Sonar Charts so my primary navigation app will be Navionics UFN.

Thanks

Paul


It's more like "Maretron doesn't support [fill in the blank]". They only support their own devices.


I used Nemo + my boat's wifi to provide nav data to Navionics running on an iPad. It worked great.
 
Yes I use the NEMO to send the navigation data over wifi but are there any suggestions to access the other NMEA PGN in a readable form on an Ipad?

Thanks

Paul
 
Yes I use the NEMO to send the navigation data over wifi but are there any suggestions to access the other NMEA PGN in a readable form on an Ipad?

Thanks

Paul


The only one I've used for NMEA 2000 (PGNs) is Maretron, using their IPG100 to get N2K data on my IP network. I have then used Maretron's mobile app over wifi. I think it's the most complete and capable offering. You have to incur the cost of the base system, but the Mobile app is then free.


Aside from that I have only used the Navionics iPad app, and I gather that has been replaced by something else now. But it uses 0183 over UDP, not N2K.
 
It's more like "Maretron doesn't support [fill in the blank]". They only support their own devices.


I used Nemo + my boat's wifi to provide nav data to Navionics running on an iPad. It worked great.

Agreed on Maretron. Both of my previous boats had over 20 different Maretron devices on them (one had far more) and you had to use Maretron software with either the USB100 or IPG100 to configure anything at all.

I like a lot of their products, and in many cases, they're the only game in town for specific ones, but it sure would be nice to have a bit more flexibility in how you can interact and configure them.
 
The only one I've used for NMEA 2000 (PGNs) is Maretron, using their IPG100 to get N2K data on my IP network. I have then used Maretron's mobile app over wifi. I think it's the most complete and capable offering. You have to incur the cost of the base system, but the Mobile app is then free.


Aside from that I have only used the Navionics iPad app, and I gather that has been replaced by something else now. But it uses 0183 over UDP, not N2K.

I've used the IPG100 too, and it does give you the ability to have N2K PGNs on your IP network, but there are very limited options for actually consuming that data. As twistedtree mentions, you can use their iPad app, or N2KView, their PC application.

All of the other solutions out there that I am aware of send 0183 data over a TCP or UDP port, which when you think about it is pretty disappointing. Just going through the inventory in my head of all of the various mobile and PC apps that I can think of, and other than Maretron's and Coastal Explorer+Nemo, I can't think of a single one that doesn't use the older NMEA 0183 protocol.

That's an interesting question - why haven't we seen the move to N2K for any gateways? There are a ton of additional types of data that N2K can deal with that 0183 never was designed for. Strange...

SignalK is the only thing I can think of that is gathering from many networks and presenting things as a stream that isn't just 0183. It can output JSON and other types of data, which aren't really end user protocols, but still gives it tons of flexibility.

Until Navionics, iNavX, and <insert your mobile app here> starts looking at supporting NMEA 2000 PGNs, I don't think these gateways will get any more interesting or feature-ful.
 
I've used the IPG100 too, and it does give you the ability to have N2K PGNs on your IP network, but there are very limited options for actually consuming that data. As twistedtree mentions, you can use their iPad app, or N2KView, their PC application.

All of the other solutions out there that I am aware of send 0183 data over a TCP or UDP port, which when you think about it is pretty disappointing. Just going through the inventory in my head of all of the various mobile and PC apps that I can think of, and other than Maretron's and Coastal Explorer+Nemo, I can't think of a single one that doesn't use the older NMEA 0183 protocol.

That's an interesting question - why haven't we seen the move to N2K for any gateways? There are a ton of additional types of data that N2K can deal with that 0183 never was designed for. Strange...

SignalK is the only thing I can think of that is gathering from many networks and presenting things as a stream that isn't just 0183. It can output JSON and other types of data, which aren't really end user protocols, but still gives it tons of flexibility.

Until Navionics, iNavX, and <insert your mobile app here> starts looking at supporting NMEA 2000 PGNs, I don't think these gateways will get any more interesting or feature-ful.


I think there are a few reasons for this.


First and probably foremost is that there is no standard for N2K over IP. That's a real impediment to an app developer who wants to utilize N2K PGNs to display data, etc. A standard for this has been "coming soon" for a very long time - probably 5-10 years - called OneNet. I attended a seminar on it at METS and it is supposedly in final review prior to release. That will open up a lot of doors, but may still be slow to take off.


The other impediment to N2K flourishing is that it's not really an open standard, and let me be really specific about what I mean by that because it seems to put some people into a tizzy when I say it.


The N2K spec can be licensed by anyone who wants to sign up. That's an open door. There is a fee involved, but you need to buy pretty much every standard of any kind that I have encountered, with the exception of IETF RFCs for all the IP protocols. The Ethernet & wifi standards (all the 802 standards) need to be purchased, but the IP protocols that run on top of it are open to anyone to download, read, and participate in the process. The point is that having to pay for the spec is not a big deal, and is a common practice.


What's unique about N2K is that the license includes a confidentiality clause that binds you to secrecy about the contents and workings of the standard. This is above and beyond the normal copyright that any document carries that protects against blatant reproduction.


So even though the door is open for anyone to license the standard, once you step through the door, you can't reveal what's inside, or how it works. This totally puts the kabosh on any sort of open professional or academic discussion, and blocks anyone who might want to write a paper or book, like some sort of how-to. Ethernet, IP, and countless other standards have scores of books written about them, leading to an educated and conversant pool of engineers, and a thriving market. No such books can be written about N2K, and it leaves people like me to figure it out by observation and reverse engineering. That would be no way for someone to build a product, even if they wanted to.


There have been a couple of N2K code bases developed via reverse engineering (actually, maybe only one), including the one that's used for SignalK. A big part of the excitement around SignalK was that it is completely open, enabling the sort of flourishing market found elsewhere. But in all frankness, SingnalK strikes be as a total belly flop. It doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.


Another impedament is that building an N2K gateway is a lot more complicated than building an 0183 gateway. An 0183 gateway just spits out sentences. You can spit them over RS422 (NMEA 0183), spit them over UDP, or nearly anything else. And on the computer side, it's just a serial data stream. Couldn't be simpler.


But N2K utilizes CanBus which has a whole datalink management structure to it. There are management and housekeeping PGNs to sort out addressing, who can do what, etc. etc. Any give implementation needs to decide which functions are handled by the interface and drivers, and what is handled by the app using the interface. Things like reporting what PGNs a device can send becomes very complicated because the gateway doesn't know what the apps are capable of. So who answers when asked? And what if there are multiple apps using the same interface at teh same time, like CE and TimeZero? Are they distinguishable by other devices on the network such that the AP knows which autopilot messages to listen to? These are all solvable, but every vendor does it differently. What's missing is a standard programming interface like Sockets for TCP that provides a standard way for apps to use an interface.


Meanwhile, the usual suspects of electronics vendors would love to get you hooked on their total, integrated systems, so nobody really has much incentive to do anything about this. The advice I hear all the time to "buy everything from the same vendor" is exactly what they want to hear.
 
I completely agree with you on NMEA 2000 and it's open/closed stance. I have written much about it over the years, and been very outspoken about how it is purpose built to make money, not to help boaters.

While I agree that an 0183 gateway is simple, and that an N2K one would be more difficult, it could be done if someone put their mind to it. Many thousands open source and commercial products have been created to solve just this in many, many more complicated networking and protocol spaces.

I think the biggest issue is that the folks who control NMEA 2000 don't really want it to be as open, want to lock you into one vendor, and have no motivation to change that. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I don't think SignalK is a total belly flop - in fact, I am using it to bridge different systems together that you can't do without either paying for expensive hardware, or you simply can't do at all. It is not the panacea of unifying NMEA 2000 with everything else, but it is making strides in allowing end-users to interact with NMEA 2000, NMEA 0183, and other data sources where no one else seems to be. It definitely does not solve the main problems this thread came up with originally, but it is a good tool to have on board.

Until someone develops open source or more open protocol versions of an autopilot and radar, this whole system will remain closed. Vendors want it that way, NMEA 2000 wants it that way too. If we do get something that is more open, then things like OpenCPN, CE, SignalK and many other tools will be great to use, cost effective, more flexible, and undoubtedly grow and connect more together to form a really cool solution.

Unfortunately, I think the general boating public votes with their dollars, and doesn't insist with vendors more that they want better choices.
 
Until someone develops open source or more open protocol versions of an autopilot and radar, this whole system will remain closed


I'm surprised you find auto pilots "closed". To me, they one of the most interoperable devices across brands. The control panel to computer is proprietary, but doesn't matter unless you want to use something else as a control panel, like an MFD.


But instrument inputs are all standardized, as is the typical rudder position output. And the coms to allow the pilot to follow a route from a chart plotter or PC app is all standardized too.


Radar, definitely proprietary, as a fish finders and other sonar images. But otherwise most are pretty standard, give or take a few bugs here and there.
 
I'm surprised you find auto pilots "closed". To me, they one of the most interoperable devices across brands. The control panel to computer is proprietary, but doesn't matter unless you want to use something else as a control panel, like an MFD.


But instrument inputs are all standardized, as is the typical rudder position output. And the coms to allow the pilot to follow a route from a chart plotter or PC app is all standardized too.


Radar, definitely proprietary, as a fish finders and other sonar images. But otherwise most are pretty standard, give or take a few bugs here and there.

You are correct, they are one of the most interoperable for sure.

However, even though they are interoperable, there still are many that I have come across that do not work 100% reliably or share all of the data if it is not the same vendor. Even though they both state they support the same sentences/PGNs, more often than not there are still limitations that should not be there if they truly are supporting them.

I guess I was just hoping someone would make one that does truly do this. Perhaps the new one I've installed that claims 100% NMEA 2000 compatibility will live up to this!
 
N2K View

It's more like "Maretron doesn't support [fill in the blank]". They only support their own devices.


I used Nemo + my boat's wifi to provide nav data to Navionics running on an iPad. It worked great.

Twistedtree, I assume that N2KView will read all NMEA messages (0183 and 2000) that the Nemo gateway collects and puts on the NMEA2000 backbone, but that you will need the Maretron gateway USB100 to connect it to the PC?

I'm planning to install some Maretron and Actisense sensors on Monara (Monara - Introduction), want them to talk to my Nemo (still in the box), and understand from this thread that I will need 3 gateways... Nemo, USB100 and NGW-1...
 

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