Designing and Building a dining table

We've done a search on TF for help with designing and building a table for our salon and haven't seen anything that answers some of the questions we have. *We know that there are many excellent carpenters on Trawler Forum and wonder if any of you can help.

We have a traditional U-shaped settee in our salon with a *formica? table top on two metal posts. * The two posts can be lowered to create an extra berth. We find that the table is too small and pretty ugly ( it is only 20" by 52"). *There is also*a long settee on the opposite side of the salon but it is too far away for additional seeting at the table.

We would like to replace the table with a larger folding table of solid wood slabs. *The*two slabs of wood would be 1" by 28" by 52" that would be hinged to create a table that folds onto itself, and when open would become a table of about 54" x 52" which would now reach the additional *seating available from settee opposite. *

The table when closed would be supported by the existing metal posts. *When open, the hinged side would have an additional movable support similar to a folding tv tray table which could be folded for storage separately. * (We would plan to ditch the idea of dropping the support posts for the extra berth).

We like the idea of using flat grain wood (teak is expensive, cherry I'm told can be matched pretty closely to the colour of teak).

We had originally asked for quotes for 1" laminated stock.... with one supplier quoting a price of $490 for two pieces in cherry 1" thick , $470 in African mahogany 1" thick, and $790 for teak 13/16" thick or $1600 for teak 1 1/2" thick. (1" teak was not available for some reason). *This supplier would only supply the sanded pieces, we would have to finish the wood and add the hinge.

The other supplier said that 1" flat grain stock would not be stable enough and would warp. *They quoted flat grain Burmese teak 1 *1\2" at $4490 and flat grain cherry 1 1/2" at $3155. *Their price also included the installation of a piano hinge plus staining and a permanent finish.

Quite a difference in the two prices, but the bigger question is what thickness is really necessary for the table.

We are a little concerned about the extra height and weight that we would end up with using the 1 1/2" material... there isn't a lot of room between the top of the seat bench and the bottom of the table.

We also wanted to increase the functionality of the table and thought about using a piece of Starboard on top of the two metal posts to increase the support for the table top, but mainly to create a surface on which the table top could slide over to the long side of the u-shapedsettee. *We would cut slots into the Starboard and add small bolts to the underside of the wood table top so that it could slide several inches over along the slots. We would use wing nuts on the bolts to lock the top in place. *This would give us more room in the 'aisle' between the table and the opposite settee and easier access to the engine room hatch.*

So what do any of you think about the feasibility of this project and the questions raised re materials and actual design. * We're looking for any and all suggestions.


-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 03:02:19 PM

Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

We've done a search on TF for help with designing and building a table for our salon and haven't seen anything that answers some of the questions we have. *We know that there are many excellent carpenters on Trawler Forum and wonder if any of you can help.
We have a traditional U-shaped settee in our salon with a *formica? table top on two metal posts. * The two posts can be lowered to create an extra berth. We find that the table is too small and pretty ugly ( it is only 20" by 52"). *There is also*a long settee on the opposite side of the salon but it is too far away for additional seeting at the table.
We would like to replace the table with a larger folding table of solid wood slabs. *The*two slabs of wood would be 1" by 28" by 52" that would be hinged to create a table that folds onto itself, and when open would become a table of about 54" x 52" which would now reach the additional *seating available from settee opposite. *
The table when closed would be supported by the existing metal posts. *When open, the hinged side would have an additional movable support similar to a folding tv tray table which could be folded for storage separately. * (We would plan to ditch the idea of dropping the support posts for the extra berth).
We like the idea of using flat grain wood (teak is expensive, cherry I'm told can be matched pretty closely to the colour of teak).
We had originally asked for quotes for 1" laminated stock.... with one supplier quoting a price of $490 for two pieces in cherry 1" thick , $470 in African mahogany 1" thick, and $790 for teak 13/16" thick or $1600 for teak 1 1/2" thick. (1" teak was not available for some reason). *This supplier would only supply the sanded pieces, we would have to finish the wood and add the hinge.
The other supplier said that 1" flat grain stock would not be stable enough and would warp. *They quoted flat grain Burmese teak 1 *1\2" at $4490 and flat grain cherry 1 1/2" at $3155. *Their price also included the installation of a piano hinge plus staining and a permanent finish.
Quite a difference in the two prices, but the bigger question is what thickness is really necessary for the table.
We are a little concerned about the extra height and weight that we would end up with using the 1 1/2" material... there isn't a lot of room between the top of the seat bench and the bottom of the table.
We also wanted to increase the functionality of the table and thought about using a piece of Starboard on top of the two metal posts to increase the support for the table top, but mainly to create a surface on which the table top could slide over to the long side of the u-shapedsettee. *We would cut slots into the Starboard and add small bolts to the underside of the wood table top so that it could slide several inches over along the slots. We would use wing nuts on the bolts to lock the top in place. *This would give us more room in the 'aisle' between the table and the opposite settee and easier access to the engine room hatch.*
So what do any of you think about the feasibility of this project and the questions raised re materials and actual design. * We're looking for any and all suggestions.

Susan and Dan,

You can use 1" stock which nets 3/4" dressed or 3/4" plywood for the center section. *Then band it with 1 to 1-1/2" material. *This would give a heftier look and feel while stiffening the 3/4" material. *That should not raise the height of your table. *Just thinking.

Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

That is a tricky one. *Flat grain material is expecially given to cupping. *Vertical grain material will usually stay flat. *How about plywood with a solid band on the edge? *You may want to look at some other woods. *I have one table that is banded with teak with birds eye maple veneer in the center. *Nice contrast, and it brightens things up a little. *By folding over you have eliminated the possibility of a thicker edge than center. *With a dadooed joint it could lock the center panels in and stabalize them. *YOu could try that with 1" stock. *I think that I would band a 3/4" piece of decorative hardwood faced plywood or even teak. *A piano hinge could cover the edges where it folds. *If not some edge tape should do it.


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 03:43:13 PM

Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Table tops are often made from plywood for the very reason you have been warned about - warping.

Some research will turn up plywood in your choice of species or you can veneer your own if you have the knowledge and skills. You can cut pylwood, edge the plywood with your wood species, laminate the top and bottom and it will be almost impossible to tell that it's not solid wood except that it won't warp.

Of course this process is a step or two beyond the average DIY person so you may want to just pay a pro.

1" should be thick enough for a table top if it's properly supported. Think of a typical residential dining room table. It's probably 1" or less in thickness.

BTW: Although the table will be installed on a boat, it's a woodworking or furniture project, not a boat project.* I would suggest searching for a woodworking or furniture making forum.* These people can probably point you to sources for materials and /or craftspeople to actually do the work.


-- Edited by rwidman on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 03:42:45 PM

Don, I think we mispoke when we said the wood was 1" stock... we should have said the finished product was 1" thick... or at least that is what I believe the quotes indicated- I will have to recheck. *

I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that banding the material wouldn't change the height. *There isn't a lot of room from the bottom of the table to the seat bench and the posts can't on be raised much higher. *Wouldn't banding with a wider material change that distance?...anyone with fat knees, look out!...*

Delia Rosa wrote:
Don, I think we mispoke when we said the wood was 1" stock... we should have said the finished product was 1" thick... or at least that is what I believe the quotes indicated- I will have to recheck. *

I am not sure I understand what you mean when you say that banding the material wouldn't change the height. *There isn't a lot of room from the bottom of the table to the seat bench and the posts can't on be raised much higher. *Wouldn't banding with a wider material change that distance?...anyone with fat knees, look out!...*

Click to expand...

*I wondered what happened. *I think this is posted in two places. *You can always cut a block to raise just the pedestal points if needed for clearance. *You are right. *Folding over negates the use of thicker stock on the edge. *I also posted something in the general section.

Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

We had thought about using a plywood veneer (and yes creating our own would be beyond our abilities - *so we did find a shop that could provide plywood with veneer on both sides). * However, on our boat, we use the table alot, not just for dining and it is inevitable that it will get dinged over its lifetime. *

We have a veneered table in our dining room and a large solid wood table in our family room and although I realize that veneered furniture can look quite wonderful when new - *our solid wood table seems - to us at least - to have developed 'character' with its various dings, while the dinged veneered table just looks tired and not as well kept.

We are still hoping to stay with the solid wood idea. *So back to the discussion of 1" versus 1 1\2" thick finished product. *Would the 1 1/2" be stable enough? *And what about the vertical grain idea... would that end up looking like butcher block?

We have done some research on this project with two wood working shops that have nothing to do with boats. *Some good ideas, but they also weren't sure about how the marine environment might affect the project. *And to be frank, price tag is important. *There is no way that we can afford to buy a table that costs several thousand dollars. *

Regarding the design, we also thought about just having a separate table extension to add the extra area, but there is really no room to store it, hence the idea of hinging over onto itself. *And because the bottom of the hinged piece becomes the top, there isn't much we can do there to add extra support or stability.

Thank you both for your comments so far... *we are still hoping for more suggestions.. we know that TF members always have a unique take on every idea.


-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 04:19:11 PM

It is posted in two places.... our mistake... but we don't know how to fix it!

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Delia Rosa wrote:
*

We are still hoping to stay with the solid wood idea. *So back to the discussion of 1" versus 1 1\2" thick finished product. *Would the 1 1/2" be stable enough? *And what about the vertical grain idea... would that end up looking like butcher block?

Click to expand...

*A real butcher's block is end grain. *Vertical grain is a very long close together grain the full length.

Here is a birds eye maple inlay with banding.*

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Charles, sounds like a similar situation - although we are hoping to have the folded table at a centered position on the posts and then slide it closer to the seats when not at the table so as to give us more room in the aisle. *But the same process I imagine. *I don't suppose you have any pictures or diagrams of your fabrication. *Would the aluminum be a better choice than the starboard idea?

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Don that table is very pretty... and I think we now understand what you and Ron meant by banding... *which we obviously didn't from our earlier post.

Still not sure what the banding would look though with a piano hinge... and we would definitely need a professional to build it... don't know if that would fit our budget though!

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Delia Rosa wrote:
Don that table is very pretty... and I think we now understand what you and Ron meant by banding... *which we obviously didn't from our earlier post.

Still not sure what the banding would look though with a piano hinge... and we would definitely need a professional to build it... don't know if that would fit our budget though!

Click to expand...

*I don't see a problem with the piano hinge being across the center panel and the banding. *I had a trawler that did that. *The band could be most any width you wanted, but would have to be the same thickness of the center panel.

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Don and Ron, what do you think of the durability of a veneered centre panel... we are still worried about knicks and scratches... we have a scratch in our veneered dining room table, and it couldn't easily be repaired or sanded out.

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Delia Rosa wrote:
we have a scratch in our veneered dining room table, and it couldn't easily be repaired or sanded out.

Click to expand...

******** Wet a dish towel and ring it out as best you can. Place it over the scratch and iron it. (Steam or non steam iron...it doesn't matter.) The steaming process raises the wood in the scratch so that a very light sanding can be achieved. People who refinish gun stocks have used this method for years.

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

I'll give it a try!

RE: Designing and Building a dining table (also posted in general maintenance in error as well!)

Charles, that sounds exactly like what we are trying to create... what size of bolts did you use? *I haven't heard of many people having a similar sliding table and it seems like such a great idea!

Looks like the thread got moved out of general and over to maintenance... hope this still finds those who were posting on the general site!

Anyway, with the comments from Ron and Don about possible warping of flat grain material... and still not being convinced of using a centre section of veneer.... what about the idea of using the flat grain 1" material and then adding a 1 1/2 or 2" edge band on the two shorts sides. *Would that be enough to stop the cupping or warping of the boards?

Charles, not sure if you saw our last post as the thread has been moved to general maintenance... but your idea sounds perfect... what size of bolts did you use?

The maple inlaid table like the one in the picture is in my attic. *We removed it to make a comfortable TV lounge with an ottoman. *There is a table on our helm deck where we eat. *Picture of the lounge area is with this. *of course we could still use folding tables if needed.

I really like the idea of having the salon area without a table and more relaxed as yours is, but we have no room in our pilothouse to have the dining area there..... *there *are always compromises!

Sounds even easier than the original plan and a great looking table. *Do you remember about how many inches the table could slide... I will have to check out specs for the sliding chair hardware.

I wonder why we don't hear about more people having sliding tables, it seems such a good idea.


-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 06:43:46 PM

Dan:

As our boats are both by C&L, no surprise that we have the same table, and the same issues with it.
I recently put Quartz "Silestone?" countertops in my galley, so naturally looked at replacing the dining table with the same material. I stalled out in looking for hinges that could handle the Quartz material effectively, and due to the extra weight of that material, with whether to abandon the folding idea and go with a one piece table top.

I have decided that the original dimensions are not to be retained, but I don't like the idea of abandoning the present design of folding wings.

I still plan to do something with the table, as the full size side is Formica with a fake wood grain that is no longer in keeping with the quality of the countertops in the galley and other real wood elements in the saloon. The underside of the wings are veneer that has dings that make it look (to my eye) old and worn, rather than giving it character. I do like the smaller size, with the wings folded, as we are most often just two for dinner.

When I replace the table, it will be 2 to 4 inches wider, but I will keep the same length. I would like to radius the corners to about 4" instead of keeping the sharp 90* corners of the original, but could only do this if I build it as a one piece top. If I keep to a folding wing design, I have to keep the sharp corners, as they end up right in the middle of the long edges, when folded in. I will keep the original hidden hinges. In 18 yrs, the table top has been used in the lowered position only once, for guest bedding, so when redone, keeping that feature is unimportant. When the upholstery is redone (coming soon,as the fabric has already been purchased), it won't be made to fill the bedding spaces. The size of the saloon will allow a much wider table, but the supports would have to be moved on the floor to go much more than 4 inches wider, so I have set that as a limit. I think your proposed width is just too wide for the size of the saloon, and needing a moveable support is not a good idea.

I have managed to keep the veneer close to the condition it was in when I got the boat 18yrs ago, so I am not concerned about the durability of veneer, but I do like the look of a solid wood edge of about 3 to 4 inches all around, like Don's photo. The finished thickness is not too important, so I will likely use 1/2" teak plywood, good one side, doubled so as to match the grain on each completed side. The hinges only need to be set down from the upper surface accurately. The depth to the lower surface can be increased from the present thickness, by the choice of material. That choice will mean a thicker edging piece, which will also look better.

Now you have me wanting to get to that project sooner, rather than later!

Let us know what your final choice is.

Keith, I was looking through old threads to see if you had posted a picture of your salon table and was reminded that you had redone you counters and that you would post pictures...but I couldn't find them. *I would love to see the finished version. ... I think you mentioned you have done all the work yourself... we have a huge learning curve before we get to doing that kind of thing including some of the work you wrote about repairing your teak.

When you describe your table top, I don't think ours is the same. *The picture I posted isn't great, but there are no wings, and the previous owner actually cut out the centre section so that it could be removed when his 'larger' friends came to visit - they couldn't slide around the table so they moved in through the middle! *So the current table is really quite a mess. *From your description, *I understand that your 'wings' fold in on the narrow sides of the table and meet in the middle. *In the folded state, does that mean that the table edge is quite far from the side seats. *I assume that means you have lots of room to move around the table to get to the inside part of the bench.

As I mentioned earlier, our table is approx 20 x 52 which means it finishes exactly at the front edge of all three sides of our u-shaped salon seating (allowing it to drop into place and become the base of that never used extra berth). *It is fine for two, but too small for the extra guest or two who would sit on the middle part of the u-shaped bench. *And even if we were to keep that size of main table and just add an extra leaf of the same size that could fold out toward the opposite settee, it would still leave a gap from the edge of the table to the opposite settee of at least 15 inches. *So we couldn't use that settee for extra seating and we really don't have a lot of extra storage for individual extra chairs. *

That's why we are thinking of expanding the main table base to approx 28 x 52, which would give us a larger space when we are dining with the table folded... we always sit at the oppposite ends.... and with the sliding top, the table can be centred over the metal legs when dining, or pushed closer the the middle part of the u-shaped bench if we need the space to open up the engine hatch. *And with the unfolded leaf, it would now reach to the opposite settee for use by guests. *

With the new configuration we could easily seat at least 8... we have three married daughters and grandchildren (although one daughter lives in Australia, so she doesn't get to the boat too often!!!)*

Another thought, I am curious why you see the extra movable support piece as a problem. *It would fold up for storage in our pantry immediately ajacent to the settee and would only need to be used when the table is open for a large gang. *(we had a similar support for the folding table on our sailboat many years ago and it seemed to work okay..)

Regarding the use of veneer vs solid material... I like your idea of the wide banding, but am still concerned about keeping the middle veneer section in top shape. *Tools on the table, grandchildrens' toys... I can only imagine that dings will be inevitable. *So what do you think about the idea we posted later, using 1"flat grain solid wood, but adding banding to the short sides to help resist cupping and warping... we haven't suggested this to the wood working shop yet, but expect to mention it next time we talk to them.

One other thing regarding the size of the table... we do plan to try to mock up a simple plywood version of the full size table to check to see if the larger size does work in real life as opposed to the wonderful world of pie-in-the-sky ideas!

We'd love to hear back from you and please keep us posted on your ongoing plans!

-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 03:02:19 PM


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__________________

Susan & Dan
"Delia Rosa"*C & L Sea Ranger 47 PH
Point Breeze N.Y. on Lake Ontario
Dan:
Your pictures, above, look like my table, as it appears to have the wings that would fold over the center part.* That is why I thought your table is like mine.* You should go back to the original configuration, then you could get around the table instead of having to go through the middle of it!!
If you are not going to do the work yourself,* you really have to be careful about your design.* When you hire a shop to do something they have never done before, you will get unpredictable results, as they will interpret your instructions in ways you have not considered.*
I see your cabin has no room for loose chairs, as we have on the open side of our table, hence your wider design.* I would be reluctant to try something as radical as a banquet table in a small cabin.* I would stick to the original design.* In fact, if you are sticking to Formica, there doesn't look to be anything wrong with the present table.
I will try to get some pictures tomorrow.

Our boat came with a fixed pedestal table that dropped down to form a "double" berth big enough for two chinese midgets. The table was uncomfortable to sit at and wasn't much use for dining more than 2-3 people. We took it out and filled in the pedestal hole with teak and holly that pretty closely matched the original sole (and there is a carpet over that spot anyway).

I designed and had Arrigoni build a folding leaf table on a freestanding pedestal base. With both leafs opened, it can seat 4-6 for a meal. Closed, its fine for 2-3. It can be dropped to coffee table height. It can be placed wherever the situation warrants. Finally, it can be opened and dropped all the way down to sit on ledgers on the port and starboard settees, filled in with cushions and, for real comfy, an inflatable mattress, for the rare times that we have an overnight guest or couple.

The table is teak ply with banded edges of solid teak. Provision has been made for securing it in a seaway, although when it is dropped down in its folded up position it hasn't ever moved while unsecured in fairly rough conditions.

The only drawback is that when the table is fully opened it impedes access to the aft door, but we can still use the helm door.

The first pic is of the old table (now doing duty in my home shop/man hole on a free standing base). Sorry I don't have a pic of the table opened up.


-- Edited by dwhatty on Thursday 26th of January 2012 07:38:02 AM

Keith, I will look forward to seeing your pictures!

David and Emily,

Nice looking table. *I really like the idea of the table being movable. *We really hadn't thought of that option. *What method do you use to secure the table? *

I can't tell from the picture, but it looks like the opposite seatee would be close enough to the opened leaf to use comfortably. *How wide is the table with both leafs open and how are the leafs supported when open?

*

Charles, we will be redoing all the upholstery. *We are trying to figure out the most comfortable setup and what modifications we can make. *We have the fabric, but haven't bought any foam yet.

Delia Rosa wrote:
David and Emily,

Nice looking table. *I really like the idea of the table being movable. *We really hadn't thought of that option. *What method do you use to secure the table? *

I can't tell from the picture, but it looks like the opposite seatee would be close enough to the opened leaf to use comfortably. *How wide is the table with both leafs open and how are the leafs supported when open?

*

Click to expand...

To secure it, I bolted two SS pad eyes through the front of the side and aft parts of the starboard L shaped settee just under the horizontal ledgers. The table is then dropped (in its folded position) down til it rests on the ledgers tight in the corner of the aft and side parts of that settee. A light line is then wrapped around the pedestal, pulled tight and secured to the pad eyes. Simple and effective.

When the table is opened and in the down/bed position it reaches from the ledgers on the starboard side settee to the one on the port side settee and sits on these ledgers.

In the up and open position (height infinitely adjustable) people can sit comfortably at the table on both sides (as well as on each end) for dinner, table games or whatever.

In the closed position, it can be dropped to coffee table height and positioned as desired.

On each side of the table there are two padded support "arms" that slide out from under the center part to support the open leafs.

I can't remember the exact dimensions of the table but it is somewhere around 38" fore and aft, 23" side to side in the closed position and 46" side to side in the open position.