Insurance for outside the US

Just got my GEICO renewal notice for 2019. Got a small reduction in the deductible and the premium. Not unhappy... BUT...

We left the US in March and don't expect to have the boat back in the US for a number of years, while we explore the Caribbean and Central America. I have heard that insurance outside the US can be considerably less expensive, but I honestly don't want to start submitting applications to every insco that comes up in a Google search, unless I think it's going to result in some significant savings (at least 10%).

Have any of you had experience with insurance companies outside the US, for cruising outside the US? Good, bad, or no different? Significant premium savings, or not?

Thanks!

in 2012, on our way from Panama heading toward Trinidad, we basically had to go through Venezuelan waters. Seaworthy, now Geico Marine said no. Our agent got a quote from Lloyds/TL Dallas. It was terrible. High deductible with lots of exclusions. An example; any damage caused by failure of cathodic protection was on our nickel. Our agent went back to the underwriters for Seaworthy and they finally said OK. We could stop at the outer islands but we could not land anywhere on the mainland.

A friends boat was struck by lighting in Costa Rica. Seaworthy flew in a surveyor. She paid the $250 deductible and they paid for the repairs.

We looked at Pantaenius when we were in Trinidad. At the time we had to be north of Brunswick, GA for hurricane season. We couldn't go south.

Seaworthy, now Geico covered us from Alaska to Florida and was/is easy to work with. Part of that maybe the agent though.

Larry M said:

in 2012, on our way from Panama heading toward Trinidad, we basically had to go through Venezuelan waters. Seaworthy, now Geico Marine said no. Our agent got a quote from Lloyds/TL Dallas. It was terrible. High deductible with lots of exclusions. An example; any damage caused by failure of cathodic protection was on our nickel. Our agent went back to the underwriters for Seaworthy and they finally said OK. We could stop at the outer islands but we could not land anywhere on the mainland.

A friends boat was struck by lighting in Costa Rica. Seaworthy flew in a surveyor. She paid the $250 deductible and they paid for the repairs.

We looked at Pantaenius when we were in Trinidad. At the time we had to be north of Brunswick, GA for hurricane season. We couldn't go south.

Seaworthy, now Geico covered us from Alaska to Florida and was/is easy to work with. Part of that maybe the agent though.

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Well, from the lack of replies to this (other than this very informative one), maybe my best bet is to stick w/ GEICO. As I said, I'm not unhappy with them. Thanks, all!

Talk to a marine insurance broker. Jack Martin in Annapolis and IMIS in Grasonville, Md are good ones. They provide international marine insurance all of the time.



I doubt if Geico will provide any coverage outside of the US and maybe the Bahamas.


David

Geico Marine does insure outside the US or they do for us anyway. Our navigation limits for this year include the Turks and Caicos and the Bahamas. We talked about next years trip to the DR and no problem although they haven't given us a quote yet.

I think some of the confusion may come from that Geico Marine Insurance Company is the the underwriting company for BoatUS and Geico. BoatUS, historically hasn't insured boats for international travel.

The OP isn't searching for a US insurer who covers outside the US as he has that. His question is about insuring through a foreign insurer. I would be very hesitant to insure, for example, through a Dominican Republic or Colombian Insurer regardless of price. My biggest concern would be in the event of a claim. The venue to resolve it will be where the insurer is located. If you have to sue, that's where you'll have to sue. In some countries, you won't even have the standing to file the suit. In some, you may or may not speak the language. Getting a read on the financial stability of the insurer can be problematic. Then let's say you make it to court, it's now an American vs. a local. Odds are not good.

Australian boat insurance seems to be much cheaper than what I’ve heard about
US insurance on this site. I’d suggest having a look on cruisers forum (sister site to Trawler forum). Lots of international cruisers there.

BandB - Most countries don’t use the court system to sort out non commercial insurance claim disputes. Instead they use an ombudsman who deals with the claim impartially to sort out the issue cost effectively.

AusCan said:

BandB - Most countries don’t use the court system to sort out non commercial insurance claim disputes. Instead they use an ombudsman who deals with the claim impartially to sort out the issue cost effectively.

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Australia and much of Europe. However, the Americas and a good bit of the Caribbean uses courts to resolve disagreements.

Sounds like Australia is less expensive but I'm not sure.

Bay Pelican was insured by Markel though IMIS, Grasonville, MD. Excellent coverage and service. Important issue will be getting umbrella coverage. In Indiana only two umbrella insurance companies covered the boat once past the Bahamas.

BandB said:

The OP isn't searching for a US insurer who covers outside the US as he has that. His question is about insuring through a foreign insurer. I would be very hesitant to insure, for example, through a Dominican Republic or Colombian Insurer regardless of price. My biggest concern would be in the event of a claim. The venue to resolve it will be where the insurer is located. If you have to sue, that's where you'll have to sue. In some countries, you won't even have the standing to file the suit. In some, you may or may not speak the language. Getting a read on the financial stability of the insurer can be problematic. Then let's say you make it to court, it's now an American vs. a local. Odds are not good.

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You're correct in your assessment of what I'm looking for, but I wasn't thinking DR or Columbia, but rather Canada, or Great Britain, or the Netherlands, or something a little more stable - or at least, stable-appearing.

We run into Canadians all the time here (Turks and Caicos now) - maybe I'll start asking them where they get their insurance.

Brian: We spent 11 years cruising outside the US. Pantaenius probably insured the largest number of European boats for people we cruised with. At the time, they didn’t have any US offices and were hesitant to insure US flagged vessel because of our insurance laws and potential litigation.

Pantaenius Group has now created Pantaenius American Limited which has offices in the US but is a separate company. I’d be curious if the European Group would insure you if you stayed outside the US.

Larry M said:

Brian: We spent 11 years cruising outside the US. Pantaenius probably insured the largest number of European boats for people we cruised with. At the time, they didn’t have any US offices and were hesitant to insure US flagged vessel because of our insurance laws and potential litigation.

Pantaenius Group has now created Pantaenius American Limited which has offices in the US but is a separate company. I’d be curious if the European Group would insure you if you stayed outside the US.

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Pantaenius America insures boats as far south as 21 degrees north latitude excluding Cuba. They will insure Cuba trips too, but at an additional premium.

As an aside but definite concern:

Lloyd's controls 20% of all marine insurance. (Note that this is largely a matter of shipping and cruise lines and megayachts). They had a loss last year of $2.6 billion and have over 80 syndicate groups that have been unprofitable the last three years. Seven syndicates quickly trimmed $100 million in marine business this fall and others may have by now. A London broker said only about 18 syndicates were profitable on marine insurance the last three years while over 50 lost money. Now, part of the problem is that they've been competing strongly and insuring as low as 0.1% (.001) of boat value and that is not sustainable. The feeling is that hull insurance within their syndicates probably needs to double. These low rates have made hull insurance far less profitable than things like war insurance and high risk coverage.

Now some of the problems are attributable to Lloyd's themselves and their excessive costs largely due to their slowness in adopting digital technology. 30% of premiums go to covering their costs, making their costs about 12% higher than competitors.

What does this mean to all of us including those not using Lloyd's? It means on the global marine market, especially for ships and cruise lines and larger yachts, as Lloyd's raises rates, so will everyone else gradually do so. It could also mean more share to others. I know shipping companies, already struggling to survive, are concerned. This fall Lloyd's did put the syndicates on notice to develop plans to return to profitability on marine insurance.

When we checked in 2012 and again in 2014, Lloyd's had offerings around 15-20% below Pantaenius. Our rates since 2014 have not increased in spite of hurricanes and wildfires and other events. I don't know the impact this will have on the recreational market but would expect it to have some. However, I don't think it means as they raise rates all others will necessarily do so as well. Others have had more reasonable pricing and not followed Lloyd's syndicates into predatory pricing.

This is a concern I've always had with Lloyd's (and not just on marine insurance) that with so many syndicates bidding and competing, their prices were not sustainable, but it always seemed that when one syndicate would back away, ten others would compete aggressively. On the other hand from a customer standpoint, they've always been able to maintain coverage without huge spikes. I remember when everyone was running from Jamaica after their worst hurricane ever, Lloyd's got us coverage at less than we'd been paying and each year another insurer would run from Jamaica and Lloyd's was able to continue to provide coverage without premium increases.

Rossland said:

Pantaenius America insures boats as far south as 21 degrees north latitude excluding Cuba. They will insure Cuba trips too, but at an additional premium.

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Well, we're already at 21.8 degrees south (Provo, TCI), so that won't help. Thanks, though!

BrianSmith said:

Well, we're already at 21.8 degrees south (Provo, TCI), so that won't help. Thanks, though!

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I'm not sure where 21°N came from, as I was covered everywhere I went, except for the actual ocean crossing.
While Pantaenius is expensive, it is consistent and you get pretty much worldwide coverage.

Wxx3 said:

I'm not sure where 21°N came from, as I was covered everywhere I went, except for the actual ocean crossing.
While Pantaenius is expensive, it is consistent and you get pretty much worldwide coverage.

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We got quotes from Pantaenius for pretty much worldwide coverage as well.

UPDATE: GEICO came back and said "sure, we'll cover you for basically the entire Eastern Caribbean, but it'll cost you an extra $1,115 per year." (More than a 20% increase.) My broker is going to push back a bit, and also shop around a bit.