Paper Charts

RickB · Jan 10, 2012

Old_Salt wrote:*Am I in the minority as far as not religiously updating paper charts?"

Considering the amount of work required to*keep up with*chart corrections on more than one or two charts, probably not.

*

weebobby · Jan 10, 2012

But after missing 26 years of corrections maybe it is time for the Op to think about new charts

psneeld · Jan 10, 2012

RickB wrote:psneeld wrote:*I understand the weight aloft*will reduce the rate of roll and "possibly make the ride better"... however, when you finished off with the stability statement I couldn't decide exactly how you were connecting the two..

KG is the distance between the CG and the keel, if you add weight high on the boat, you*raise G*and bring it closer to the metacenter, M, which is determined not by G but by the location of the center of bouyancy, *B.

Because the distance between a line drawn vertically from*B*to*M defines the righting arm Z, as G rises the distance between G and M (GM) and roll rate decrease and we say that stability has decreased. When G and M coincide the boat is neutrally stable.

the locations of B and M will* begin to move quickly beyond about 10 degrees of roll and at some point (the point of vanishing stability) M will move below G and the boat can capsize. We conduct inclining experiments to determine where stability vanishes. Because different boats have different hull shapes is why I said there is more to stability than the height of the center of gravity above the keel.

I never said raising G increased stability, I said it provided for a better ride due to a slower rate of roll. And that is why I said*decreasing stability is not necessarily a*negative thing.*

*I know all that. As I said I've taught it, was a USCG engineering officer for a small boat/WPB fleet for 3 years*and have been involved with stability measurements on*smaller commercial*vessels.

While I see what you clearly stated...I think that in*many internet discussions, the brevity of many posts keeps clear understandings cloudy until a post or two more connects the dots a little more clearly.

-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 10th of January 2012 02:05:44 PM

Marin · Jan 10, 2012

weebobby wrote:
But after missing 26 years of corrections maybe it is time for the Op to think about new charts

*If one uses electronic charts, they reflect the current situation, or at least the current situation at the time the electronic charts were burned to the chip or card or memory.

But "current" paper charts are sometimes older than even 26 years so require manual updating.

As Rick said, I doubt many recreational boaters, even those who still have or use paper charts, bother to do this.* Of if they spot an obvious change--- a new marker buoy or something--- they'll draw it on the chart when they see it. But in terms of keeping up with the notices, depending on where one boats, things may not change enough to warrant the effort.

If we boated the Mississippi, keeping up-to-date is pretty important.* I have very limited experience with that river, but the little I have had (a long time ago) taught me that things are always changing in terms of channels, bars, water levels, etc.* Here in the PNW, nothing much of any significance ever changes.* The water is deep and much of the structure is rock so things don't migrate around much with storms and whatnot.

rwidman · Jan 10, 2012

markpierce wrote:
A flying bridge adds a lot of expense when it duplicates another helmsman position.*................... and a flying bridge raises the boat's center of gravity*so reducing a boat's stability.*

*My Camano was offered originally with (Troll) or without (Gnome) a fly bridge.* Very, very few were made or sold without the fly bridge.* In nice weather, it adds significant square footage to the useable space on the boat.

As for raising the center of gravity, I am counting on the boat's designer to take that into account.

But, I respect your choice to buy a boat without one.* "You pays your money and you takes your choice."

rwidman · Jan 10, 2012

Pineapple Girl wrote:
Wait, I thought this is a thread on charts?* I'm soooo confused....*

*

Well, it started out that way, but it seems you had a hand in steering it off course:

"When we first got our boat we tried running from the flying bridge a few times until we both decided we didn't like it.*"*

It doesn't take much around here.*

*

Marin · Jan 10, 2012

rwidman wrote:Pineapple Girl wrote:
Wait, I thought this is a thread on charts?* I'm soooo confused....*

*

Well, it started out that way, but it seems you had a hand in steering it off course:

"When we first got our boat we tried running from the flying bridge a few times until we both decided we didn't like it.*"*

It doesn't take much around here.*

*

*Jennifer didnt' say that, I did.

Pineapple Girl · Jan 10, 2012

Marin wrote:rwidman wrote:Pineapple Girl wrote:
Wait, I thought this is a thread on charts?* I'm soooo confused....*

*

Well, it started out that way, but it seems you had a hand in steering it off course:

"When we first got our boat we tried running from the flying bridge a few times until we both decided we didn't like it.*"*

It doesn't take much around here.*

*

*Jennifer didnt' say that, I did.

Yeah Marin said that!* Matt and I almost always steer from up top.* high CG or no!

rwidman · Jan 10, 2012

OK, sorry. This forum is a little different from others I haunt and I must have gotten confused as to who said what.

FlyWright · Jan 10, 2012

markpierce wrote:Carey wrote:RickB wrote:markpierce wrote:
*a flying bridge raises the boat's center of gravity*so reducing a boat's stability.*

Not necessarily a negative thing.* Adding a flying bridge or standing up there will reduce the rate of roll, make the boat ride better, and make it less likely that someone will be "thrown off" the deck or the bridge.

There is a lot more to stability than the KG.

*Right you are Rick!

*If this is so, why don't sailboats have ballast in their masts rather than the keels?

*Hey, hey, Mr. Coot!* This is a nitty gritty TRAWLER Forum, not some hoity toity sailing club.* You're welcome to just leave that sailing stuff at the door.* :nana: :weirdface:

(good point, though!* :thumbsup

**

markpierce · Jan 10, 2012

FlyWright wrote:
*Hey, hey, Mr. Coot!* This is a nitty gritty TRAWLER Forum, not some hoity toity sailing club.* You're welcome to just leave that sailing stuff at the door.* :nana: :weirdface:

(good point, though!* :thumbsup**

*Al, you're just jealous.* Love having my radar on a "real" mast (with sails!)*high above me rather than staring down my neck, as compared to*sitting in*your flying bridge.*

-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 11th of January 2012 02:32:38 AM

Pineapple Girl · Jan 11, 2012

rwidman wrote:
OK, sorry. This forum is a little different from others I haunt and I must have gotten confused as to who said what.

I*think the quotes got wonky so it is hard to follow.* no worries, just goofin' around.

FlyWright · Jan 19, 2012

markpierce wrote:FlyWright wrote:
*Hey, hey, Mr. Coot!* This is a nitty gritty TRAWLER Forum, not some hoity toity sailing club.* You're welcome to just leave that sailing stuff at the door.* :nana: :weirdface:

(good point, though!* :thumbsup**

*Al, you're just jealous.* Love having my radar on a "real" mast (with sails!)*high above me rather than staring down my neck, as compared to*sitting in*your flying bridge.*

*Yup, you're on to me, Cooty!* I'm considering adding a faux sail just to disguise my ugly radar mast.* Hey, your color would match my canvas!

markpierce · Jan 20, 2012

FlyWright wrote:* Hey, your color would match my canvas!

*Great minds think alike.* Blue is so ... stale.

RickB · Jan 20, 2012

Pineapple Girl wrote:
Wait, I thought this is a thread on charts?* I'm soooo confused....*

Speaking of charts, don't forget to bring along the MSDS for nautical charts. Safety first you know.

Pineapple Girl · Jan 20, 2012

RickB wrote:Pineapple Girl wrote:
Wait, I thought this is a thread on charts?* I'm soooo confused....*

Speaking of charts, don't forget to bring along the MSDS for nautical charts. Safety first you know.

I think there is a California prop 65 warning on paper charts.* Lead content or something...

*

Larry M · Jan 20, 2012

A long the lines of paper charts, what about the Navigation Rules of the Road?* During our last CGC inspection I was asked and showed the inspector an electronic copy, we don't have a paper copy.* He started to say something but let it go.* Do you carry a hard copy on your vessel?* Is an electronic copy adequate?

Carey · Jan 20, 2012

Larry M wrote:
A long the lines of paper charts, what about the Navigation Rules of the Road?* During our last CGC inspection I was asked and showed the inspector an electronic copy, we don't have a paper copy.* He started to say something but let it go.* Do you carry a hard copy on your vessel?* Is an electronic copy adequate?

*My boat is only 36', but I do carry the hardcopy.

I believe that it is required on vessels 12 meter (39.37') and above. As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.

psneeld · Jan 20, 2012

Carey wrote:Larry M wrote:
A long the lines of paper charts, what about the Navigation Rules of the Road?* During our last CGC inspection I was asked and showed the inspector an electronic copy, we don't have a paper copy.* He started to say something but let it go.* Do you carry a hard copy on your vessel?* Is an electronic copy adequate?

*My boat is only 36', but I do carry the hardcopy.

I believe that it is required on vessels 12 meter (39.37') and above. As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.

*Can't swear...but I believe it's only commercial vessels that are required to carry hard copy charts/pubs.

The exception is a copy of the rules of the road for 12 meter and above.

-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 20th of January 2012 06:19:20 PM

xfedex · Jan 20, 2012

About 6 months ago on our last CG water boarding, I was asked if I had a copy of Navigation rules. I did not. Asked "Did I have a copy of Chapmans?" Yes I did and that seemed to satisfy.

rwidman · Jan 20, 2012

If you want to*update electronic charts what do you do, use whiteout on the screen?

Doug · Jan 20, 2012

Not sure about the US but in Canada you are required to carry the most recent editions of largest scale chart of the areas you are navigating. Charts must be paper. ENCs or RNCs on a chartplotter to not suffice.*

For smaller vessels this requirement may be waived if the skipper can prove he has extensive local knowledge (shipping routes, lights, buoys and marks, and prevailing navigational conditions)

I suspect it would be hard* to prove to your insurance company that you had sufficient local knowledge after hitting a rock without the appropriate charts onboard.

rwidman · Jan 21, 2012

Doug wrote:
Not sure about the US but in Canada you are required to carry the most recent editions of largest scale chart of the areas you are navigating. Charts must be paper. ENCs or RNCs on a chartplotter to not suffice.*

For smaller vessels this requirement may be waived if the skipper can prove he has extensive local knowledge (shipping routes, lights, buoys and marks, and prevailing navigational conditions)

I suspect it would be hard* to prove to your insurance company that you had sufficient local knowledge after hitting a rock without the appropriate charts onboard.

There must be a size cutoff fot chart requirements.* I can't imagine paper charts on an 18' bow rider or 22' center console.

Or an aluminum duck boat.

*

rwidman · Jan 21, 2012

Carey wrote:..........*As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.

A paper chart is pretty worhless if you don't know where you are on the chart.

Neither is foolproof.

*

Carey · Jan 21, 2012

rwidman wrote:Carey wrote:..........*As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.

A paper chart is pretty worhless if you don't know where you are on the chart.

Neither is foolproof.

*

There is one tool, when combined with paper charts works quite well. It's called situational awareness. A handheld compass and bearings off of landmarks will help you tighten up your position. What did we ever do without electronics?

psneeld · Jan 21, 2012

I was always taught that the art of*navagation wasn't figuring out where you are but the art of confirming what you already know.

*

7tiger7 · Jan 21, 2012

Carey... "situational awareness"? Hmmm.... sounds an awful lot like "common sense". I'll blindly trust my GPS and other electronic gizmos to tell me what to do... then if anything bad happens, I can just call the USCG and then blame the GPS maker (or society) for my mistakes....

Marin · Jan 21, 2012

psneeld wrote:
I was always taught that the art of*navagation wasn't figuring out where you are but the art of confirming what you already know.

*

That's probably true today, alhtough the captain of the Costa Concordia apparently didn't do either one.*

But guys like Cook, La Perouse, Vancouver, etc. didn't know where they were much of the time other than what their navigation observations and calculations told them.* No charts (other than the ones they were drawing on the spot) and no idea about what lay around the next point.

But they all managed to get around pretty good.

Doug · Jan 21, 2012

rwidman wrote:There must be a size cutoff fot chart requirements.* I can't imagine paper charts on an 18' bow rider or 22' center console.
Or an aluminum duck boat.

The Canadian Hdrographic Services also publishs strip charts and chart books which are more convenient on smaller boats.

Edelweiss · Jan 21, 2012

I asked my*cousin in Vancouver,*works for*Environment Canada,*and he says paper charts are not required under 100 gross tons for pleasure boats and here is the*regulation per Environment Canada.* He also said local knowledge or available reference material such as chart book, tide book, or chartplotter would be acceptable.

"To help make navigation safer, you must carry the following for each area you plan to boat in:
<ul>[*]the latest edition of the largest scale chart (when available); and[*]the latest edition of related documents and publications, including Notices to Mariners, Sailing Directions, tide and current tables, and the List of Lights, Buoys and Fog Signals.[/list]
"If you are operating a boat under 100 gross tons, you do not have to carry these charts, documents and publications on board as long as you know:"
<ul>[*]the location and type of charted:<ul>[*]shipping routes;[*]lights, buoys and marks; and[*]boating hazards; and[/list][*]the areas usual boating conditions such as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns."[/list]
*p.s.* He said just don't hand them a restaurant place mat!

Oops!!* Sorry my Cousin works for Transport Canada, the information on chart regulations was from Environment Canada

*

-- Edited by Edelweiss on Saturday 21st of January 2012 04:27:34 PM

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