Anchor Chain Swivels

Eric,

Thanks for your comments

The bow roller has a deep groove and at shallow depths there is no evident twist. At 40m or more there is a 1/2 turn twist between the roller and the chain*wheel apparent on the retrieve**The anchor is a 25Kg Delta, rode is all 1/2" chain. The twist in the chain causes problems at the windlass*as the chain*frequently jams in the hawse pipe. Windlass is a Nilsson vertical with a 10hp hydraulic motor. It runs at 3 sec*per meter. I wouldn't want it any slower.

Jeff b

Bendit wrote:

The bow roller has a deep groove and at shallow depths there is no evident twist. At 40m or more there is a 1/2 turn twist between the roller and the chain*wheel apparent on the retrieve

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*From your description, I wonder if your problem is being caused by that groove in your bow roller.* If it wasn't there, perhaps the chain would be able to better align itself with the wildcat on the windlass.

That's what the groove is for is'nt it? To keep the chain centered and aligned to the gypsy? Marin I at least have no idea what "rims" are. Ben do the chain links fit on edge in the groove? How can the chain jam in the hawse pipe? The hawse pipe is directly after the gypsy is'nt it? The weight of the chain should straighten out the chain as it drops into the locker .....no? Is the 90 degree tube between the gypsy and the hawse hole designed for your chain size? Perhaps it's of a soft metal and has a worn groove that causes jamming of the chain. Just brain storm'in.

Eric

Eric--- See photo below.* The "rims" are at each end of the roller.* I suppose another term could be "flanges."* But there is no groove in the middle of the roller cylinder.* The roller at the forward end of the pulpit is the same.

Jeff---* It sounds like what you're saying is that the more chain you let out, the greater the twist becomes in the chain between the bow roller and the windlass wildcat.* Since your roller has a groove, which as Eric points out should in theory orient the chain in a manner identical to your wildcat, its sort of sounds to me like there is something funny about your chain.* If putting more tension/weight on it causes it to start to twist between the bow roller and the windlass-- a relatively short distance I assume--- it almost sounds like the links are deformed or improperly made so that somehow adjacent links are being forced a bit out of line where they connect, hence the twist under pressure but no twist with little or no pressure.

Marin, *Flange works and that's on a capstan.........not intended for chain so yes there will never be a chain groove on the drum. I had'nt thought of a deformed chain. Not likely though. Ben, When you are pulling up the rode and when you see a twist......if you straighten out the chain and pull some more rode does it twist up again?

Eric

Eric--- We still might be talking about two different things. The rollers are what I am calling the thing at each end of the pulpit channel. The bronze roller in the upper right corner of my photo. The wildcat is what I call the chain wheel on the starboard side of our windlass. The gypsy is what I call the smooth drum on the port side of our windlass. I use standard logging terms for these two items--- other people use different names for them.

I think Jeff is saying that he has a groove machined around the center of his bow roller at the end of his pulpit. If I'm interpreting his description correctly, that groove should orient a chain link vertically with the link on either end of it horizontal. Same way the link recesses machined into the windlass wildcat position a chain. Since he says the chain is twisting between his bow roller and his windlass wildcat, both of which should be orienting the chain the same way, the only thing I could come up with that could cause the chain to twist out of alignment between the two is a deformed chain, as unlikely a scenario as that seems.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 12th of January 2012 11:30:35 PM

What's all this logging talk???

You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side. A wild cat lives in the forest with the loggers. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. We could all look it up in CHAPMANS. The aft roller on your pulpit is an intermediate roller and the bow roller is out of sight.*

A deformed chain it could be but I would'nt bet money on it. But I can say for sure one of the reasons Ben is having problems is that he is using chain.

Eric

nomadwilly wrote:You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side.

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*A gypsy is*the name used to describe a*smooth sided capstan drum.* The term capstan applies only to a vertical windlass--- that's the name of the whole unit, not the rotating drum.***A horizontal windlass is NOT a capstan.*

Here is an official definition for you that I found.

"Technically speaking, the term "windlass" refers only to horizontal winches. *Vertical designs are correctly called capstans

The wheels on either a vertical or horizontal windlass provide for either chain or line to be engaged. The wheel for line is termed a warping head, while the chain handling wheel is variously referred to as the gypsy (in the UK) or wildcat (in North America). For clarity in communication the generic term chainwheel is often used."

So I am actually not technically correct in calling the smooth drum on a windlass a gypsy.* I should be calling it a "warping head."* But "gypsy" is what a smooth drum is known as in a lot of other professions, including logging, so I will stick with that term unless i happen to remember "warping head" which I probably won't.

The term "wildcat"originated, by the way, from a description of what happens when chain runs away on the chain wheel.* "The thing turns into a wildcat, " or words to that effect.

Obviously you can call the components of a windlass whatever you want.* You can call the chainwheel a Zaphod Beeblebrox if you want to and the smooth drum on the other side a Trillian.* Makes no difference to anyone else except people who know what they're supposed to be called might misinterpret something you say about the operation of*a windlass.

Type "windlass wildcat" into Google and see what you see.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 13th of January 2012 12:59:05 AM

nomadwilly wrote:
*if you have twist between the bow roller and the gypsy a very strong twisting force must be present...... Since you can actually see a twist there that is extremely unlikely to be generated from forces from below I propose that the relationship between the bow roller and the gypsy is causing the twist

*



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Thursday 12th of January 2012 12:21:50 PM

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*Eric,I think you have it. A few minutes spent looking and thinking showed the chain was twisting 90 degrees to go on the gypsy, compared with its position at the anchor shackle. The fix was embarrassingly simple, lift the chain off the gypsy,rotate it 90 degrees, put it back on. Result:straight run,no twist, problem appears solved.

For the record,the bow roller has no groove but has a flange each end; the roller and gypsy are well aligned.

Thanks to all for thoughtful advice and input. Bruce.

*

OK good.......sounds like we've done BruceK some good not without some effort but I'm pleased we've made some progress and perhaps solved the problem. Also we may have learned something.*

Speaking of learning something Marin did you look up that stuff in Chapman's? All my books are now packed up in boxes w tape around them so I can't access my references. I've heard of "warping head" but I've never heard of any boater using that expression. You did dig up someth'in I like .....chainwheel. I think you're right.....horizontal = windlass/winch and vertical = capstan. Nobody uses "chainwheel" (I wish they did) but I consider "wildcat" basically slang and I do'nt see any confusion that may result from using wildcat or gypsy for the chainwheel at least here on TF. As to the line (never rope on a boat) handling smooth drum on winches windlass's or capstans ....I cannot call them gypsies. According to your post the chain OR line handling "head" should be called the gypsy. I say not so. You can call the chain thing a wildcat if you want but I'll prolly use gypsy. No problem but calling a line drum a gypsy........no. Warping head is (I'm quite sure) correct but how many boaters will know what you're talking about??? Drum or line drum for both horizontal and vertical will produce by far the best communication on the float and here on TF. If you say "the windlass line drum" everybody will know what you're talking about. Last but not least ........I'd like to know what Chapman says. They do'nt call it the boating bible for religious reasons.

Eric

nomadwilly wrote:
1.Speaking of learning something Marin did you look up that stuff in Chapman's?

2. Nobody uses "chainwheel" (I wish they did) but I consider "wildcat" basically slang and I do'nt see any confusion that may result from using wildcat or gypsy for the chainwheel at least here on TF. As to the line (never rope on a boat) handling smooth drum on winches windlass's or capstans ....I cannot call them gypsies. According to your post the chain OR line handling "head" should be called the gypsy.

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*1.* Chapmans?* Are you kidding?* I think Chapmans probably says something like "A windlass is the the doohickey on the front*of *the boat that pulls up the anchor rope" and leaves it at that. * As I've said before, I gave up on Chapmans pretty*much after I looked through it*the first time after we bought one*because the information was way too basic for what I wanted to know.* I've never opened it again.

2. Actually, I've heard a lot of people use "chainwheel."* I usually use "wildcat" but if I think the person I'm talking to won't know what that is I use "chainwheel."* They always understand that.

As the definition says, "gypsy" is what they call the chainwheel in England.* "Wildcat" is what it's called in the US.* It's not slang, although it's origin indicates it started out that way.* It's now the legitimate,*correct name for the chainwheel*(in this country).* Like I said, look it up*on Google and you'll find even windlass manufadturers use the term "wildcat."* Some of them I found*play it safe and say "chainwheel wildcat."* Or "wildcat gypsy" or "gypsy wildcat."

A "gypsy" is a rotating drum on a winch or windlass.* What the definition I quoted calls a "warping head."* I've never heard the term "gypsy" used (exept by you and one or two other people) to describe a wildcat/chainwheel.* If I was talking to someone in England I would expect (now that I've seen an accurate definition) to hear the chainwheel referred to as a "gypsy."* But not in this country.

Like I said, you can call the components what you like.* But know that when you say "gypsy," the chances are the person you are talking to--- assuming they know anythning at all*about winches,windlasses, and capstans---will think you are talking about the smooth drum aka warping head, like the gypsy on the port side of the windlass on our boat, not the chainwheel.

Could lead to some confusion on the part of the listener.

In the overall scheme of things this is all pretty small potatoes.* But since a big chunk of what I do is write, making sure the reader (or*the viewer in the case of a film/video) *understands what I write is pretty important to me.* So I tend to put more emphasis on using correct terminology that perhaps other people do.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 13th of January 2012 01:36:20 PM

nomadwilly wrote:You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side. A wild cat lives in the forest with the loggers. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

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If you are talking about one of those little boat anchor windlasses like the one Marin posted as shown here, you have a wildcat on one side and an item whose name is not politically correct on the other side.


-- Edited by RickB on Friday 13th of January 2012 01:28:58 PM

Marin,

Seems you're right about the term gypsy. Saw it on the Kolstrand web site. Now I've got to shift years ans years of gypsy to windcat. Bummer. Just saw your post Rick. Do you mean nationally not correct? Politics aside winch drum is OK by me.

Eric

RickB wrote:nomadwilly wrote:You've got a capstan on the port side of your windlass and a gypsy on the stbd side. A wild cat lives in the forest with the loggers. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

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If you are talking about one of those little boat anchor windlasses like the one Marin posted as shown here, you have a wildcat on one side and an item whose name is not politically correct on the other side.



-- Edited by RickB on Friday 13th of January 2012 01:28:58 PM

Both are correct.*

RickB wrote:
If you are talking about one of those little boat anchor windlasses like the one Marin posted as shown here, you have a wildcat on one side and an item whose name is not politically correct on the other side.

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*You're absolutely right, Rick.* I had totally forgotten about "that' term for a warping head aka gypsy, and it is as accurate as anything else.* It was the accepted term in the US Navy back in the Civil War days, and I've read it many times in books written by or about people in the navy back then.

In fact, I just came across that term recently in some of my research material about WWII.* I will have to check, but part of me thinks I saw it in my copy of the 1,000+ page 1943 Bluejacket's Manual.

In Australia the "chainwheel" side of a horizontal windlass is universally called a "gypsy", presumably reflecting English antecedents. I quite like the term "wildcat" but most boaties would be mystified, especially those who take their pet cat onboard.

Does any of the extensive research you guys are engaged in reveal why one side of the windlass(whichever it may be), is called a "gypsy"? BruceK

BruceK wrote:
Does any of the extensive research you guys are engaged in reveal why one side of the windlass(whichever it may be), is called a "gypsy"?

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*Not seen an explanation of the origin of the term.* However it has been in use for well over a hundred years to describe a winch drum that does not have a line or cable attached to it.* In other words, wraps are taken around the gypsy*so it can pull on the line*but the non-load end has to be tailed either manually or automatically.

I did learn that the initial use of the term was "gypsy head."* The "head" was dropped at some point.

A lot of logging terms came originally from the maritime world particularly in the area of the winches and rigging used to move and load*logs in the woods.* "Donkey (engine)," and*"gypsy" are just two examples.

The attached photo was taken around 1900 and is of a Dolbeer donkey, the machine that revolutionized logging in America.* Invented by John Dolbeer in 1881 in Crescent City, California, the components of his machine were a boiler and*single cylinder steam engine connected to a capstan winch on which was mounted a vertical "gypsy head" (the term used by Dolbeer) around which a line was wound to pull logs to the winch.*

To move the machine in the woods, it was mounted on skids and the line was attached to a distant tree or stump and the gypsy head was used to pull the donkey across the forest floor.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 13th of January 2012 05:39:16 PM

For high-line logging,*the horizontal position*was preferred.

The Dolbeer was the first steam powered system in the woods.* For obvious reasons it was soon superceded by the multiple drum horizontal donkeys, which soon became known by their function. So you had skidders, yarders, loaders, and whatnot.

The ultimate logging "donkeys" were the massive tower skidders, which not only performed all the functions of a skidder, yarder, and loader but had their own steel spar trees.* Here are some shots of some of the largest ones made.* Note the number of powered drums--- these things were a steam fitter's dream (or nighmare).

This is what Eric needs on the bow of NomadWilly.* No problem anchoring with a*1:1 scope ratio here.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 13th of January 2012 08:58:00 PM

Hows this for a suggestion...? Let's all agree the port side line warp, which is round, smooth and drum-shaped, so we call it the windlass drum. The thing on the other side which grabs the chain, (which I suspect is probably the now politically incorrect origin of the term, as in Gypsies being 'notorious' for being light-fingered and tending to 'grab' things - yeah, sorry, but some-one had to address the elephant in the room...but we don't believe that of Gypsies now...do we?), so we call that the chain gypsy....there...problem and confusion solved...?

As far as I am concerned they are refered to as the chain gypsy and the warping drum or rope drum, but that is only after being art sea in the Merch for 40+ years.



*


-- Edited by Tidahapah on Saturday 14th of January 2012 05:46:15 AM

"Let's all agree the port side line warp, which is round, smooth and drum-shaped, so we call it the windlass drum."

*

If you were the deckhand on this vessel employed in ship handling with one line off the center "thing" and another off one of those side "things" and the captain told you to you slack off the line on the drum which one would you slack and would the captain be happy with your choice?

*

Wo'nt work Peter. Marin thinks they are wildcats and I thought we determined that he is right after all. I've been around boats and I do'nt remember the term wildcat re boats and yachts but I was on a winch manufacturer's web page yesterday and sure enough they referred to the line handling drum as the gypsy. It will be hard to change but it's right. Or seems to be.

Ben and Rick, * We're not in the merchant marine and I've never seen anything like that shippy thing Rick posted (as a picture) on a yacht so I highly suspect it has little relevance*here. We're yachtsmen and what yachtsmen think, do and say is what should be relevant here. Marin probably Googled all his information so he may not have the ideal source either. We need several good yacht (not sailboat) authorities to make the call/determination of the terms to be used on power boats of the type we have and use. The only source that fits (except the sailboat part) that I know of is Chapman. Will somebody kindly post what Chapman says these things are called?

Eric

Now I start looking at Ricks picture and getting interested in what I'm looking at. I first assumed it was the bow but now I'm quite sure it's the stern and I'm interested in the function of the center drum on the winch. Looks like hemp line and I wonder why the drum is so big and yet so narrow.*


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 14th of January 2012 11:03:13 AM

Yachtsman, hummmmmmm. I thought real yachtsman used well designed and pretty SS swivels.

nomadwilly wrote:
Ben and Rick, * We're not in the merchant marine and I've never seen anything like that shippy thing Rick posted (as a picture) on a yacht so I highly suspect it has little relevance*here. We're yachtsmen and what yachtsmen think, do and say is what should be relevant here.

Now I start looking at Ricks picture and getting interested in what I'm looking at. I first assumed it was the bow but now I'm quite sure it's the stern and I'm interested in the function of the center drum on the winch. Looks like hemp line and I wonder why the drum is so big and yet so narrow.*

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It IS relevant here. The same parts have the same names regardless of what it is attached to*. Everyone seems to want to have a "shippy" little boat until it means using the correct terminology when describing the parts that make it "shippy."

The picture shows one end of a "ship-handling module."

* There are international variations so we tend to take the "when in Rome" approach when talking to foreigners on their turf and use the traditional term when talking to each other. Hence the question about what the captain would think if you slacked the wrong line because you personally choose to use a home-brew identification for a boat part.


-- Edited by RickB on Saturday 14th of January 2012 11:23:28 AM

When was the last time you saw a "ship-handling module" on a trawler yacht?

nomadwilly wrote:
When was the last time you saw a "ship-handling module" on a trawler yacht?

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Those tugs are called "ship handling modules."

Just because it shows something that you won't see on a yacht doesn't mean it is any less relevant than the radar scanner you see on a large ship. They all do the same thing for the same reasons and are operated the same way.

Every time I go on an American yacht I see an anchor windlass with a wildcat and a warping drum. When I go on a foreign yacht, I see a gypsy and a capstan. In many cases they are exactly the same piece of equipment made by the same manufacturer.

Here is a link to an Aussie manufacturer of windlasses used on many yachts: http://www.muir.com.au/glossary

*

Tidahapah wrote:
As far as I am concerned they are refered to as the chain gypsy and the warping drum or rope drum, but that is only after being art sea in the Merch for 40+ years.

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Being at sea in Australia, which is another word for "England," where the chainwheel is called a "gypsy." * So I would have expected you to be calling the chainwheel a "gypsy" all along.

It's the US that uses the term "wildcat" for the chainwheel.

But only if you're on the "right" coast?*

nomadwilly wrote:Will somebody kindly post what Chapman says these things are called?

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*For the second time in thirteen years I opened our copy of Chapmans.* Its "see Spot run" style of information hasn't changed in all that time. I had hoped it might, sitting on the shelf undisturbed all those years it could have rewritten itself.* It didn't.*

In any event I looked up every reference in the index to the word "windlass"* and they say almost nothing about them other than they exist.* Typical for Chapmans--- they tell you what you already know but don't tell you anything you don't know.

I did find ONE reference in the book (page 259) to the parts of a vertical windlass (captstan although they don't call it that) in the caption of a photo illustration.* There, they describe this particular windlass as having "a smooth drum for line over a gypsy for chain."* So they use the British term in this caption.

BUT.... on the previous page, 258, they say this in talking about all-chain rode.* "It is necessary to match the chain to the wildcat (a pulley designed for use with chain) of the anchor windlass".* So they use the US term here.

Maybe they contracted with a guy in England to write their photo captions while the text was written in the US.


BTW, Eric, Chapmans is all for all-chain rode in situations in which all-chain makes sense.* Which, in true Chapmans style, they don't define very well.

So back on the shelf it goes, Eric, and don't ask me to waste time with it ever again


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 14th of January 2012 01:47:35 PM