Ropes/dock lines?

Ropes/Dock lines?

Whatever you need, Norm at The Rope Store, in Trenton Canada can provide it.

Color, length, eye size can be purchased. He manufacturers.

Norm used to make lines for the big guys and decided he wanted a smaller operation and today supplies lines to boaters.

Good people to deal with.

Shrew said:

"All elephants are grey, therefore all things grey must be elephants."

There is absolutely a difference in strength between a splice and a knot. This is irrefutable.

You have not parted a knot and therefore knots have served equally well for your conditions so far. That simply means the knot (bowline) is strong enough for your use. However, it in no way means that knots and splices are equal.

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That is exactly how I took his comment. While there is a breakingn strength difference in a bowline vs a splice, in his experience that difference in breaking strength has never been enough to affect the performance of the line. Hence, "a distinction without a difference".

Just purchased some 7/8th inch double braid lines from Miami Cordage. Very pleased with their price and service. They will splice any eye size you want in the line and you can get in multiple colors or patterns of colors.

MOJO said:

Just purchased some 7/8th inch double braid lines from Miami Cordage. Very pleased with their price and service. They will splice any eye size you want in the line and you can get in multiple colors or patterns of colors.

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My experience with Miami Cordage was most pleasing too. I have used them for 2 boats.
Years ago, I had the great pleasure to meet "the old man". He took me into the back and showed the machines weaving the ropes.
I had 16, 9/16inch, double braid lines, 50ft long with 3 foot eyes, 4 of which had thimbles instead of the eyes, made up and it cost less than $1500. I consider that more than reasonable. Plus they included 2 calendars too. LOL I highly recommend them.

I think I paid about $250 for a 600" spool of 5/8" nylon three strand. It is not high quality rope.



You can get a 600' spool of high quality New England Rope 5/8" nylon three stand for about double that. Still a very good bargain.

ssobol wrote;
“There is a difference between the strength line when comparing a splice vs. a knot. Depending on the source, a bowline can reduce the strength of a line by 25-35%.”

You are absolutely correct.
But making oversized bowline dock line ends is so inexpensive and easy I don’t see an advantage. Most bow lines run through a chock that probably reduces the tension at the end around a cleat
The strength of bowlines vs splice is a distinction without a difference IMO. I have bowlines on fairly exposed dock through storms with no problems.

dhays said:

That is exactly how I took his comment. While there is a breakingn strength difference in a bowline vs a splice, in his experience that difference in breaking strength has never been enough to affect the performance of the line. Hence, "a distinction without a difference".

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Most of us use oversized dock lines. My smallest is oversized. 1/2” lines are typical for 30’ boats. My stern lines are 5/8”. My bow lines and spring lines are 9/16”. I could use 1/2” for all but w heavier line the “issue” of the bowline being not as strong as a splice is of no consequence.
May not look good at the yacht club but every bit as good otherwise. And I like the option of re-tying them to change the location along the line that bends at the cap rail chocks. I use hose also on my bow line for chafe resistance.

I have never heard that term "dipping the line" as was mentioned before, but the technique I've also used before as a courtesy to the other vessel. However I never use 3 strand for dock lines - don't want any stretch like in an anchor line

Overnight on board and storm lines may be quite different.

If you need 4 or 6 braided lines about 100ft long, 1 1/4, almost new (one summer) with large spliced in eye , I am in Ft Myers area . 1/3 of new price.

makobuilders said:

I have never heard that term "dipping the line" as was mentioned before, but the technique I've also used before as a courtesy to the other vessel. However I never use 3 strand for dock lines - don't want any stretch like in an anchor line

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Docklines are usually nylon, in order to provide stretch and avoid shock loads when conditions deteriorate. Anchor lines also need to have some stretch, so nylon is the most recommended material. If not using a stretchy material for anchoring, a catenary is necessary to provide the shock resistance.

Whether you use 3 strand nylon or braided nylon will not affect the stretch of the nylon, but using a non-stretch material like dacron (usually used for halyards, due to minimal stretch) or dyneema (used for lifting booms, davits, etc, strong but not stretchy) for dock lines is never recommended.

Med mooring often requires tying to a single bollard, so like big ships, yachts end up two to a bollard and "dipping" helps a lot.

"When do replace a dock line? How do you know it is unsafe, absent obvious chafing?"


Sunshine and air make lines age stiffer and stiffer.


When it becomes hard to bend on a cleat , or stays bent after removal, or shreds pieces in your hands when coiling,, its time to donate it to a sailor to make baggywrinkle.

foggysail said:

The best lines I find are from New England Rope.

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Those are the best I've used, too.

We prefer double-braid lines, although they do pick up splinters from piles more often. I have some from NER and some from Samson; the latter have a harder finish and have been less pliable than NER lines... from day one.

I was surprised (30 some years ago, I guess) that NER says their white and gold lines have higher tensile strength than their other-colored lines. Like others, we've used colors to code our lines, and we tend to use white or gold for springs, especially forward springs.

-Chris

ssobol said:

There is a difference between the strength line when comparing a splice vs. a knot. Depending on the source, a bowline can reduce the strength of a line by 25-35%.

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bayview said:

I am aware of that but lines don't fail because of knots. The bowline is simply more versatile and useful over time than a sliced loop.

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Shrew said:

There is absolutely a difference in strength between a splice and a knot. This is irrefutable.

You have not parted a knot and therefore knots have served equally well for your conditions so far. That simply means the knot (bowline) is strong enough for your use. However, it in no way means that knots and splices are equal.

Click to expand...

dhays said:

That is exactly how I took his comment. While there is a breakingn strength difference in a bowline vs a splice, in his experience that difference in breaking strength has never been enough to affect the performance of the line. Hence, "a distinction without a difference".

Click to expand...

I recognize the first truism, but it hasn't made any difference for us... and we use a combination of sliced eyes, bowlines, and larger loops made by feeding the running end through either a spliced eye or a small bowline-created loop.

I have always taken the truism to mean simply that a knot (any knot, but e.g., bowline) isn't as strong as a splice. NOT that either a knot or a splice weakens the rest of the line.

In three circumstances, imagining pressure against a forward spring line:
1) a spliced eye around a pile,
2) a larger loop -- created by feeding the running end through either a spliced eye or a bowline-created loop around a pile, or
3) a loop created with a bowline around a pile...

Where would one of those most likely fail? In the running end of the line? In the outermost extremes of the loop? At the knot/splice?

I've not ever had a failure of any of those... lucky, I guess... but one of the reasons the truism hasn't really made much difference for us...

My guess is that the knot might fail first, the splice second, and the reason the round end of the loop or along the length of the running end might fail would be from chafe or over-stretching...

??

FWIW, our normal bow line and forward spring line tie-up at our home slip puts a spliced-eye-formed loop over our forward piles, and a bowline-formed loop on our cleats... latter making each line easily adjusted (from onboard the boat) for tidal range, etc. After that, it's just laying a loop over a cleat, on the boat side. That, and color coding, makes it easier for guest crew to get it right maybe at least 75% of the time...

-Chris