Our "new" boat

Woodsong · Jan 9, 2012

I had made mention of the "new" boat we are buying a few times so thought I'd post some pics in a separate thread. *She is currently on the TN River. *She is a 1987 Bayliner 4588 pilothouse. *3 staterooms, 2 heads (one with separate shower, one with shower and bathtub), full raised pilothouse and flybridge. *She has a 10' RIB (2003) with a 15hp merc (2003). *She needs a few things cosmetic on the exterior (refinish brightwork and a compound/wax) and interior (mostly replacing the hideous floral stuff in the master stateroom, the busy cross hatch stuff in the main salon, replace the freestanding salon chairs and get a nice dining table) but all systems are functioning great. *Her interior was refit 2005 and that included carpet, headliner, and all interior soft goods including new mattresses, and conversion to freshwater flush vacu-flush heads. *Twin 220hp hino diesels, 12.5KW westerbeke. *The engines get 4 GPH combined at hull speed. *We will do some more refit work to her...corian countertops, etc. *Electronically she has a 10" garmin GPS with depth, fish, etc. etc., a 1990's raymarine radar that isn't new but works, and autopilot. *

We desperately have needed more space though. *Since I use the boat now as both a floating office and since we spend so much time aboard with the family, the Monk is just too small for our family of 4 (plus a dog so call it 5!) for extended time aboard. *This boat will allow us to spend weeks at a time aboard and not be piled on top of each other. *I LOVE the raised pilothouse!*

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

That is a nice boat!

We have the 4788 which is in reality just the newer version of the model you have.

I actually like the interior of your boat better than mine. On the 4788 they used less interior teak, and replaced the aft bulkhead with an alumanium bulkhead that I think is far less attractive.

You have a GREAT looking boat.

Tom.B · Jan 9, 2012

I like it. But I have two questions: What is the quality of Bayliners in that size range? Would you consider that a motoryacht instead of a trawler?

markpierce · Jan 9, 2012

Nice!* Wow, even a bathtub!* The only time I had a bathtub on a boat was on the QE2.

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

I can probably answer the quality questions.

The Bayliner motoryachts are of the same quality that you would evpect to find in other production motoryachts.

The hull is, hand laid using an extensive stringer system. On these boats the hull is cored below the waterline with a non water permeable core material. Typically you'll find around 2" of fiberglass outside the core and*about 3/4" inside. The deck on the 45 models is standard fiberglass over balsa.

The interior of the 45 is teak throughout. It is comparable in quality to other production boats I've seen in this size range.

The mechanicals are the same as any other large yacht. Bayliner used the Hino engines which are a marinized Toyota unit I believe. They have proven to be very dependable, with the weak link being parts availability as the fleet ages. Parts are available but they are getting more expensive and difficult to find as years go by.

There's some really good information as to the construction of these boats at www.baylinerpilothouse.com Be forewarned that the link is to a commercial website that specializes in Bayliner pilothouse models. I have no affiliation with the site.

-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 11:54:58 AM

Besslb · Jan 9, 2012

Very Nice!!* Love the pilothouse and the galley!* How do you access the bow for line duty?**

*

** found the door on the pilothouse picture!*

-- Edited by Besslb on Monday 9th of January 2012 12:02:23 PM

sunchaser · Jan 9, 2012

Cored below the waterline? Is this common on quality yachts?

Woodsong · Jan 9, 2012

Quality, in my opinion, the quality of the larger bayliner motor yachts is as good as any other production motor yachts. Every brand has it's issues for sure but the components and systems and fiberglass is as good as any other production builder. The 45/47 is widely recognized as a modern classic for her size. They were produced from 1984 through up to when bayliner became Meridian.
4588 model from 1984 to 1993
4788 model from 1994- 200?? whenever it became meridian so around 2003?
490 Meridian- stopped production about a year or 2 ago.

As far as coring below the water line....it is synthetic coring and does NOT absorb water. It is NOT balsa. Tons of builders do use balsa below the water line though- most notably Sea Ray and Cruisers Yachts, Inc. *I have researched these boats for several years and read a lot about them and have never, ever seen or heard a single report of any issue related to hull integrity below the water line. *Issues here and there related to water intrusion on the deck from unsealed penetrations but that is something every brand deals with and it is boat specific, not a model-wide dilemma. *No reports of failed fuel tanks either which is a plus. *

There are some minor differences between the 45 and 47, most notably 2' longer for the 47 and removal of all exterior teak after 1996 and switched over to cummins instead of hinos. Also, the 47 has hard chines while the 4588 which is the model I am buying, actually has soft chines. Also the 4588 has prop pockets to reduce the draft while the 4788 does not have them. The hull of the 4788 and the Meridian 490 is the same exact hull.

They are definitely not a trawler as they will plane out and WOT is around 16-17 knots, +/-. The 220 hinos in ours though are as fuel efficient at hull speed as any trawler- 4 GPH. We will cruise her at hull speed most of the time so she will still be trawler-ish for us. The raised pilothouse is simply awesome. Access to foredeck is via full size pilothouse doors to port and starboard. This is a sistership photo but you can see what the profile looks like and the full pilothouse door that is open:

Ksanders- I have to agree with you. I am actually drawn most to the 4588's or the 1995-1996 47's b/c of the teak interior and teak bulkhead at the cockpit. I don't know why they converted to a white galley in subsequent years. Plus the 3rd stateroom with the bunks that convert to a settee also has the nice writing desk in the 45 that the 47 does not have- will be handy for my office.

Truth of the matter is that they are, in my opinion, a great coastal cruising boat with an awesome pilothouse. We really wanted a cockpit again as well for easy access to the water for the kids and the dog, etc. We love kayaking and now we can store the dinghy up top on the bridge and keep the kayak on our swim platform like we did on our previous sedan- just toss it in and off you go paddling. The 3 staterooms and bigger salon is what we really needed though. I told my wife this boat will do for a year or so until we get something the 50'+ range!

If the 4588 is junk I am happy to own it- meets out needs right now and hits our high points: 3 staterooms, fuel efficient and diesel, large salon for entertaining clients and guests and 2 active kids, upper and lower helm with doors at lower helm for going through locks, cockpit for easy water access for kids and the dog, and after using it this weekend aboard the boat, a trash compactor I have decided is simply awesome. We will most likely spend weeks at a time aboard- we would not have fun doing that as a family of 4 on our beautiful but smaller Monk.

-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 9th of January 2012 12:37:01 PM

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

sunchaser wrote:
Cored below the waterline? Is this common on quality yachts?

*I don't know but just off of the top of my head Krogen did it.

Here's a photo of a 4788 that was wrecked. It shows the hull thickness.

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

Woodsong wrote:
Quality, in my opinion, the quality of the larger bayliner motor yachts is as good as any other production motor yachts. Every brand has it's issues for sure but the components and systems and fiberglass is as good as any other production builder. The 45/47 is widely recognized as a modern classic for her size. They were produced from 1984 through up to when bayliner became Meridian.
4588 model from 1984 to 1993
4788 model from 1994- 200?? whenever it became meridian so around 2003?
490 Meridian- stopped production about a year or 2 ago.

As far as coring below the water line....it is synthetic coring and does NOT absorb water. It is NOT balsa. Tons of builders do use balsa below the water line though- most notably Sea Ray and Cruisers Yachts, Inc. *I have researched these boats for several years and read a lot about them and have never, ever seen or heard a single report of any issue related to hull integrity below the water line. *Issues here and there related to water intrusion on the deck from unsealed penetrations but that is something every brand deals with and it is boat specific, not a model-wide dilemma. *No reports of failed fuel tanks either which is a plus. *

There are some minor differences between the 45 and 47, most notably 2' longer for the 47 and removal of all exterior teak after 1996 and switched over to cummins instead of hinos. Also, the 47 has hard chines while the 4588 which is the model I am buying, actually has soft chines. Also the 4588 has prop pockets to reduce the draft while the 4788 does not have them. The hull of the 4788 and the Meridian 490 is the same exact hull.

They are definitely not a trawler as they will plane out and WOT is around 16-17 knots, +/-. The 220 hinos in ours though are as fuel efficient at hull speed as any trawler- 4 GPH. We will cruise her at hull speed most of the time so she will still be trawler-ish for us. The raised pilothouse is simply awesome. Access to foredeck is via full size pilothouse doors to port and starboard. This is a sistership photo but you can see what the profile looks like and the full pilothouse door that is open:

Ksanders- I have to agree with you. I am actually drawn most to the 4588's or the 1995-1996 47's b/c of the teak interior and teak bulkhead at the cockpit. I don't know why they converted to a white galley in subsequent years. Plus the 3rd stateroom with the bunks that convert to a settee also has the nice writing desk in the 45 that the 47 does not have- will be handy for my office.

Truth of the matter is that they are, in my opinion, a great coastal cruising boat with an awesome pilothouse. We really wanted a cockpit again as well for easy access to the water for the kids and the dog, etc. We love kayaking and now we can store the dinghy up top on the bridge and keep the kayak on our swim platform like we did on our previous sedan- just toss it in and off you go paddling. The 3 staterooms and bigger salon is what we really needed though. I told my wife this boat will do for a year or so until we get something the 50'+ range!

If the 4588 is junk I am happy to own it- meets out needs right now and hits our high points: 3 staterooms, fuel efficient and diesel, large salon for entertaining clients and guests and 2 active kids, upper and lower helm with doors at lower helm for going through locks, cockpit for easy water access for kids and the dog, and after using it this weekend aboard the boat, a trash compactor I have decided is simply awesome. We will most likely spend weeks at a time aboard- we would not have fun doing that as a family of 4 on our beautiful but smaller Monk.

-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 9th of January 2012 12:37:01 PM

*You have a very nice boat there.

A little bit of correction though...

The 4788 has soft chines.

Except for the prop pockets on the 45 (something I would have prefered on my 47) the hulls look pretty much the same.

In the 47 they took out the desk and added a large closet with drawers and some space for hanging stuff. I would have prefered the desk to be honest.

healhustler · Jan 9, 2012

Really excited for you, Tony. It was only this morning that I recommended the very same model boat to a member on another forum. The 45 through 49 Bayliner is a lot of boat for the buck, and they seem to be moving nicely in the market. I'm with you on the pilothouse, which for me is the most important feature for long distance cruising. Sincere congrats.

**Regarding coring below the waterline, my Krogen Manatee 36 and many of the 42's are indeed, fully cored hulls. *One has to be mindful of blisters getting to old or too large, but the closed cell core does have it's advantages, especially in strength to weight ration, rigidity, and a superb barrier against condensation. *

-- Edited by healhustler on Monday 9th of January 2012 01:21:20 PM

skipperdude · Jan 9, 2012

Sure doesn't look like 2" and 3/4" of fiberglass in the hull to me. More like 1/4" and1/8" of glass.

The Bayliner is the most engineered boat on the water.

A lot of boat for the money.

SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 9th of January 2012 12:58:03 PM

Woodsong · Jan 9, 2012

ksanders wrote:

*You have a very nice boat there.

A little bit of correction though...

The 4788 has soft chines.

Except for the prop pockets on the 45 (something I would have prefered on my 47) the hulls look pretty much the same.

In the 47 they took out the desk and added a large closet with drawers and some space for hanging stuff. I would have prefered the desk to be honest.

*

Well you learn something new every day. *I always thought the 4788 had hard chines! *You do at least have the beefier shafts on the 47 than the 45. *

*

Thanks for the kind words healhustler (and others). *

Regarding the fiberglass thickness...I think the thin gelcoat is being confused for the full fiberglass. *The pink stuff is the fibreglass and the brown stuff is the synthetic coring....

-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 9th of January 2012 02:37:38 PM

-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 9th of January 2012 02:38:17 PM

Pineapple Girl · Jan 9, 2012

My husband LOVES these boats and would love to sell our trawler and get one.* Don't see that happening any time soon

.* We toured one of the 45's last summer and I can understand why he loves it and why you got one.* So much space, such nice amenities and it is a whole lot of boat for the money.* Congratulations! I think I missed one detail, are you keeping the Monk as well?

Marin · Jan 9, 2012

ksanders wrote:Bayliner used the Hino engines which are a marinized Toyota unit I believe.

*The history of Hino can be found on the intenet.* Very briefly, the company dates back to 1910.* Following the end of World War II, the company had to stop producing large diesel engines for marine applications, and with the signing of the treaty, the company concentrated on the heavy-duty trailer-trucks, buses and diesel engines markets, as Hino Industry Co., Ltd. The company took its name from the location of its headquarters in Hino city within the Tokyo prefecture.

To sharpen its marketing focus to customers, in 1948, the company added the name "Diesel" to become Hino Diesel Industry Co., Ltd.* While they were absorbed into the Toyota group in 1967, since one of their core businesses was the manfuacture of diesel engines, it's likely they continued to make* engines for their trucks and busses.* So my guess--- I didn't see anything confirming this, however--- is that a Hino diesel was in fact, made by Hino.* Who did the marinaization I don't know, but given the company's history it's not inconcievable that they did it themselves.* There is a big market in Asia for medium duty marine diesels in all manner of coastal craft so it might have made sense for Hino to do this, same as John Deere, Cummins, and Cat have done in this country.

Today, Hino trucks are assembled in Ireland (that's globalization for you).* I don't know if they are stil in the engine-manufacturing business.

Marin · Jan 9, 2012

ksanders wrote:

The 4788 has soft chines.

*A few years ago I read a review in a local boating magazine about a product a local company was/is offering that convertes the soft chines of a number of Bayliner models to hard chines.* The purpose is to improve the efficiency of the hull at speed and to reduce stern "squat" and bring the bow down.

From the illustrations they are basically long, tapered fairings that fit the chine curve on the inside and have a hard corner on the outside.* I recall they extend about halfway toward the bow from the stern.

Apparently they are quite popular up here and at the time of the review a number of Bayliner owners had bought and fitted them.

As I recall it is not an inexpensive modification, but from the review and testimonials it is apparently very effective.

Woodsong · Jan 9, 2012

Marin,
It is my understanding that the "modern' hino diesel in boats here in the USA were marinized by mercruiser. Hino diesels are all over the place to this day in heavy duty trucks, etc. There just aren't as many of them in boats. In fact, to my knowledge, they are predominately only found in the larger bayliners, the 32-47's from 150hp I think up to 250hp. Mine has the 220hp which frankly suits me just fine- I would much rather have the fuel economy than 2 extra knots of top end speed.

Jennifer- join the bandwagon and upgrade to a bayliner.

If I go slow in the pilothouse can I still be moderator here??

Do I have to turn in my sheriff's badge?

Moonstruck · Jan 9, 2012

Woodsong wrote:
join the bandwagon and upgrade to a bayliner.

*Tony, I think you have coined a new phrase!

Pineapple Girl · Jan 9, 2012

Woodsong wrote:
Jennifer- join the bandwagon and upgrade to a bayliner.

*Ah I notive your for sale post on the Monk.* Makes sense.

We don't have the kids and a dog to justify 15 more feet of boat, plus the expenses to go with it.* So instead we are looking at 25 more feet of boat in the form of a second boat to keep on the delta.* LOL.* This is a sickness, isn't it?

Woodsong · Jan 9, 2012

A sickness?? You think?? You know...tomorrow after I send the wire I will only right at or just over 100 feet of boats! That is not even including the 2 RIB dinghys, small sailboat, kayak, etc.

I guess I can tell people I own a mega yacht now...it's just in several pieces.

skipperdude · Jan 9, 2012

Woodsong wrote:
Do I have to turn in my sheriff's badge?

*Well if a sheriff*could be called*called a tin horne.

I think I recall boat that are baylineresque are fondly known as bleach bottles.

Or is that something else entirely?

SD

*

Pineapple Girl · Jan 9, 2012

I think the bleach bottles are the little ones.*

sunchaser · Jan 9, 2012

So for fear of the Bayliner Gods striking me asunder --- Does not the picture that ksaunders posted show foam coring not even bonded to the glass. It looks pretty shoddy to me.*Cored bottoms are also high on the surveyor's list of things to really check given issues such as shown by the picture.

Does Meridian*currently make their vessels this way with cored bottoms? I thought today's majority of good construction quality yachts was solid FRP on the bottom with coring on the sides and decks. Some are* solid all the way up to the cap rail.

JohnP · Jan 9, 2012

Beautiful boat, You guys can do the Loop with all the comforts of home.

Best of Luck

JohnP

Marin · Jan 9, 2012

sunchaser wrote:
Some are* solid all the way up to the cap rail.

GBs have been built this way from their change from wood to fiberglass in mid-1973.* And I believe--- but I could be wrong--- that a number of the so-called Taiwan Trawlers like CHB, etc. are built exactly*the same way.* Solid fiberglass hull all the way up.* The decks are usually a sandwich--- fiberglass-ply-fiberglass.

Jennifer--- I have always heard the term "bleach bottle" or "Clorox bottle" applied to ALL fiberglass boats in general, usually by the owners or fans of wood boats.

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

sunchaser wrote:
So for fear of the Bayliner Gods striking me asunder --- Does not the picture that ksaunders posted show foam coring not even bonded to the glass. It looks pretty shoddy to me.*Cored bottoms are also high on the surveyor's list of things to really check given issues such as shown by the picture.

Does Meridian*currently make their vessels this way with cored bottoms? I thought today's majority of good construction quality yachts was solid FRP on the bottom with coring on the sides and decks. Some are* solid all the way up to the cap rail.

*We need to remember that the hull in the photo was smashed on a reef.

The long and the short of it is that there has never been a documented hull failure or glass-core separation*on a Bayliner Cruiser or Motoryacht. There has for a FYI*never been a blistering issue with Bayliners either.

Compare that record with the blistering problems that are well known on Uniflights, or the core issues of the early Krogens, or even the $40K bottom job I saw done on a really nice looking Defever, and the Bayliners start looking better all the time.

I would invite you to come take a look at a Bayliner someday. Actually set foot on one and look it over. You might just be suprised. Like allot of boating myths the ones about Bayliners are just pure BS.

The simple fact is that Bayliner is the largest boat manufacturer out there. That large manufacturing base let them buy in bulk. The buying power resulted in cost savings. It also made them the target of every boat sales person trying to sell a competing model at significantly higher price. This is where you'll probably find the root of most of the Bayliner bashing out there.

-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 08:28:32 PM

-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 08:30:54 PM

markpierce · Jan 9, 2012

My impression of GBs: SOLID!

RickB · Jan 9, 2012

ksanders wrote:Here's a photo of a 4788 that was wrecked. It shows the hull thickness.

*It also shows a pretty dry layup and lack of bonding to the foam core with insufficient resin to fill the grid scoring.

RickB · Jan 9, 2012

Here's a picture of the damage done to a well made yacht running up on a coral reef at high speed. Notice the bonding on the foam core and the resin filling of the grid. This boat was running fast and weighed probably more than a dozen Bayliners so the force per unit of area was exponentially higher. The boat remained dry.

*

ksanders · Jan 9, 2012

RickB wrote:
Here's a picture of the damage done to a well made yacht running up on a coral reef at high speed. Notice the bonding on the foam core and the resin filling of the grid. This boat was running fast and weighed probably more than a dozen Bayliners so the force per unit of area was exponentially higher. The boat remained dry.

*

*Rick, that would be a great comparison if both boats hit the same reef, at the same place, at the same speed.

Its clear, both our bias's are coming through in this discussion.

Thanks for your input, but for now I think I'll spend some time thinking about the fun I'm going to have making a 1500 NM journey in my Bayliner 47' motoryacht*this summer. The same exact journey I made years ago in a*34' Bayliner.

This thread is about Woodsongs new boat, and a really nice boat indeed!

Our "new" boat

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