Need help finding full displacement boat

I wanted completely walkaround as I feel it is much easier to go through the locks that way..

In our recent search for a power liveaboard/workaboard research vessel, we included traditional flush deck motoryachts in our searches. Right now the market for motoryachts is pretty soft. We found some VERY nice boats in the Seattle area (45-66 feet) for under $200K. The only thing that kept us from seriously considering that type of vessel was fuel consumption. However, as someone mentioned earlier, if you don't plan on crossing an ocean, a good, solid coastal cruiser should be fine - provided you don't head out in really bad conditions. So if fuel is not an issue, a motoryacht that can hit upwards of 15-18 knots can at least run for cover should the weather turn unexpectedly. And you'll certainly have a great deal of living space aboard - sometimes even downright luxurious... Check out the Broward for sale in Seattle for a good example.

Of course the other thing that has us staying in the trawler category beyond fuel use is we do like the general lines of trawlers better.

Badger,

But how much time do you spend going through the locks and how much actual inconvenience will you loose w/o the side decks. And of paramount importance how much space will you loose? Just say'in

Eric

It is not time saver for us.* It was a safety issue.* As our kids get older, I expect them to be wanting to help tend the lines as we go through the locks.* I did not want them hanging on toe board and grab rail to get to the front of the boat.

Our boat will be in fresh water.* I would imagine we will be through the locks 10-15 times a year at least as we leave for the San Juans and the sound.*

*

If we end up in the big lock, we will rafting with other boats on both sides.

Good thing that the manufacturers make different models!

With an 11.5' wide saloon I don't know why we would need more space. I'm happier having a covered deck on both sides so my wife can easily set lines, fenders or pick up a mooring ball on either side. With our high freeboard we can't get a mooring ball without running a line back almost to the stern which would be really awkward w/o side decks. Plus our dogs have a place to burn off some energy playing with a ball in the protected confines of the side decks.

Different stokes for different folks. Having been on the N46 Jenny (which just sold) in Baltimore I was surprised at how narrow it is so picking up extra interior space is helpful. We chose a widebody instead.

Dave

I am not a full time cruiser but have spent time over the years on a 57 Defever in the Sea of Cortez, a Nordhavn 57 at the slip, at anchor (Desolation Sound)* and numerous sport fishing outings on my two sport fishers. As for the quality of the Nordy 57, it was excellent, access to the bow from the stern was fine but the forward cabin was on the small (short) side. When standing at the foot of the bed and closing the stateroom door, my heels were often scraped by the door because of insufficient clearance.

I've stated in other posts that I've had my my share of boats over the years. I've also stated that my biggest enjoyment from boats comes from using them as test beds to try out lots of new technical bells & whistles. After having 8 boats since 1995 of varying designs, I've decided that, for me, the Europa style boats offer the most bang for the buck (amenities, comfort, looks, ease of docking, protection from the sun & rain,etc.) Extended boat decks above the cockpit and side entry from both port & starboard are equally appealing.

It would not be a full displacement boat as I would like to cruise in the mid teens & have no realistic wants to cross big bodies of water.

If I were to dispose (sell, gift or donate) of my current boat and buy something that incorporates most or all of the above criteria, it would be this one.

*

*

Moonfish wrote:
*Check out the Broward for sale in Seattle for a good example.

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There is an old saying in the yacht business;

"Friends don't let friends buy Browards."

They have a reptution as the Bayliner of the entry level larger yachts.

nwboater wrote:
Not sure I understand why side decks are important? My 40' trawler is a widebody -- no side decks -- and I can't think of a time when I missed them.

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Everybody uses their boat differently and has different priorities.* We woud not even consider buying a boat that did not have a full, one-level, walk around deck.* The deck on our GB is pretty good but if the side decks were another foot wider they would be even better.

We move things from the main cabin to the aft deck or foredeck, between the foredeck and aft deck, or from the flying bridge to the foredeck, and being able to walk unobstructed pretty much anywhere we want to go on the outside of the boat is great.* Having to clamber through or maneuver stuff through the cabins or up and down the companionway to a sundeck would be a pain the ass, I think.

Having the full side decks is a must for the way we pick up a mooring buoy, and being able to move easlly along the entire length of the boat is very helpful when docking and rafting.

We have on occasion moved our stern anchor and rode up to the bow and it's a simple and quick matter to just pick them up and walk right up forward.* And then take them back when we're done using them.

An extra foot or so in the width of the main cabin would not even begin to offset the loss of a walkaround deck for the way we use a boat.

RickB wrote:Moonfish wrote:
*Check out the Broward for sale in Seattle for a good example.

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There is an old saying in the yacht business;

"Friends don't let friends buy Browards."

They have a reptution as the Bayliner of the entry level larger yachts.

*Interesting...

So, please do tell What reputation do Bayliner Yachts have?

Are they a quality product, or do they deserve whatever reputation they have?


-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 12:02:18 AM

While I don't have even a tiny fraction of the exposure to the marine manufacturers' world that Rick has, I have heard a number of times that the boats Bayliner made at their now-closed Arlington manufacturing facility, which was where they made their larger models, were quite good. People I heard talking about this over the years always differentiated between the smaller Bayliner "mass market" boats and their larger "motoryachts."

However I have not had any direct experience with any Bayliner model, large or small. But based on the few Bayliner owners I have met over the years, experienced people who used their boats for extensive cruising in the PNW and up the coast to Alaska and back, I think the Bayliner "reputation" is not deserved based on the boats themselves. Because the "mass market" models in particular are relatively low priced, it means people who perhaps shouldn't are able to get into "big boat" boating, so we tend to identify their subsequent mistakes, ignorance, or inconsiderate practices with the boat, not the boater.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 9th of January 2012 02:10:59 AM

Going thru locks is easiest with a simple LARGE mid-ship cleat.

Being trapped up behind a wall of walk around Magenot line will hinder, not help.

Deck access to the cleat is all that is needed.

The walkaround bridge is grand offshore where 15 fters are climbing aboard , and ducking behind a wall can save being washed overboard.

But in a lock????

Marin wrote:
But based on the few Bayliner owners I have met over the years, experienced people who used their boats for extensive cruising in the PNW and up the coast to Alaska and back, I think the Bayliner "reputation" is not deserved based on the boats themselves.AM

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******** I have written about this subject in the past.

******* I, too, believed the big bayliners were inferior in quality to other production boats until my best friend bought a 4588. We cruised his boat up & down the Southern Cal coast in some very snotty weather. The boat handled it all beautifully and I became a big fan. They are great coastal cruisers and the floor plan of the 45 is excellent! For a couple, they make great live aboards too!

While easy to get offended if you own a Bayliner, the reality is Bayliner, Carver Silverton, Mainship et al do their best to keep costs down so they can sell a product. To those in the business in a "services detailed" way, these cost cuts are obvious. To many owners, this is exactly what they want, lots of space for not lots of money. For an easy*comparison on both costs and build quality, look at Bayliner vs Formula in the 30' to 35' range at your local boat show.

I bought 3 Searays after looking at the comparable Bayliner model, and I spent more money too, maybe not wisely. But don't beat up on Rick for stating the obvious,*read Pascoe.

sunchaser wrote:
While easy to get offended if you own a Bayliner, the reality is Bayliner, Carver Silverton, Mainship et al do their best to keep costs down so they can sell a product. To those in the business in a "services detailed" way, these cost cuts are obvious. To many owners, this is exactly what they want, lots of space for not lots of money. For an easy*comparison on both costs and build quality, look at Bayliner vs Formula in the 30' to 35' range at your local boat show.

I bought 3 Searays after looking at the comparable Bayliner model, and I spent more money too, maybe not wisely. But don't beat up on Rick for stating the obvious,*read Pascoe.

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*OK, exactly what does "To those in the business in a "services detailed" way, these cost cuts are obvious." mean.

Please be specific and quantify your experiences. Also quantify the models you are comparing them against. Are these a entry point 16' runabout, or a 28' cruiser, or a motoryacht you are refering to.

I have read Pascoe. I own two of his books. Both "surveying fiberglass powerboats" and "mid size power boats". Very good books by the way.

In his books is not a fan of most of what he calls "price point boats". Many brands are included in his analysis as being*"price point"*boats, but that analysis includes most of the "taiwan trawlers", and many other brands. He specifically mentions the Bayliner 38' motoryacht and the 45' motoryacht as being well built. Heck, he is even hard on Krogen saying that there are "numerous reliable reports of cored hull problems".

So again, please tell me about your experience with Bayliner boats, and perferably Bayliner yachts since many of them are displacement speed, or close to displacement speed boats fitting squarely into the range of boats represented here on TF.


-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 09:42:18 AM

I am a huge fan of the bayliner pilothouses. The bayliner 4588 and 4788 are 2 of the best boats out there in their class and size, hands down. Great layout, great design, attractive lines (at least to me), and a ton of boat for the money. I am biased though. We are currently "moving up" from our Monk 36 to a bayliner 4588 that I am closing on tomorrow.
If you look at boats from a sales perspective, in the 45' range, give me a bayliner 4588 any day of the week over most other coastal cruiser/motor yacht models. They sell way faster and better than say the 53 hatteras, etc. Just like other brands, the bayliner motoryachts have a very strong following and they are quality built vessels. The 4588 in particular is equipped with twin 220hp hino diesels- they get 4gph combined fuel burn at hull speed but will still go 16-17 knots. 4gph is the same I would get with a 50 marine trader or 49 defever with twin 120hp lehmans.
ALL builders, in fact all businesses, try to keep costs low, regardless of where they sit on the tier of quality. The systems in the larger bayliners are no different then the systems in mainship or other tiawan trawlers. A westerbeke generator is a westerbeke generator no matter what brand boat it sits in. Yeah, my Monk happens to have a northern lights generator that is top notch, but how many on this forum have a northern lights and how many have onan or westerbeke?
Personally, I have come to the conclusion that a coastal cruiser is a coastal cruiser- and in my opinion, the 4588 is no less capable than my Monk 36 and the Monk has a strong reputation for quality.

I used to dream of having a Kadey Krogen, big defever, or nordhavn. Reality is that I am a coastal cruiser (er, actually I am just a river cruiser right now!!) and for any coastal cruiser, really the important things are adequate balance of safety, performance, layout, economy, and functionality/comforts. I still see our pilothouse as a long range cruiser with trawler economy.

Before you through the larger bayliners into the "bad" category I would definitely check them out in person. Reality is that they usually will be less headaches than the typical vintage Taiwanese trawler.

We might have bought a 45 ft Bayliner, if my wife had not spotted our big old ugly trawler.**We liked the lay being a pilot house and especially being a wide body not side decks which give a lot of living space.* So when my wife found the Eagle which was even bigger than the 45 Bayliner, pilot house and a wide body for ½ the amount it was her boat the first time she was on it.* I personally would have bought the Searay, which I really like or a Bayliner, but to keep the wife happy we bought the ugly old Twain trawler, *which has a lot of pro's and con's. ****
*
I had several concerns, one being a wide body, not side decks but quickly found that side decks where not necessary as the bow, mid and stern line were required/needed to go through the lock and/or docking. We were moored on Lake Union which required going through the locks to the Puget Sound. *However, the full beam of 13 ft made the Eagle and excellent live aboard.* My wife liked the Eagle as passengers and crew where protect/secure by the Portuguese bridge, the high solid side/stern rails and no side decks.
*

Weather a semi or full displacement is required depends on your cruising area and personal preference.* A sail boat sill might be the best.* Since most sail boats do not have a protect/enclosed helm, and they motor the majority of the time might not be a good choice for the rainy cold PNW?*

ksaunders

Why would I get into a quality*discussion with a person who is perfectly happy with his 6th Bayliner? If you read my message again, I was*positive about the Bayliner strategy. You love them like a religion,*that is all that counts.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Some people like anchovies, some people throw up at the thought of them.

Some people think my CHB represents the bottom of the trawler barrel, that opinion effects me less than the price of anchovies.

sunchaser wrote:
ksaunders

Why would I get into a quality*discussion with a person who is perfectly happy with his 6th Bayliner? If you read my message again, I was*positive about the Bayliner strategy. You love them like a religion,*that is all that counts.

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*Actually I am probably the best person here on TF to get into a quality discussion about Bayliner Cruisers and Motoryachts. I've owned six of them, and have thousands of hours of hands on experience maintaining and upgrading them. I know their strenghts and I know their weaknesses.

You indicated that there were some issues with Bayliner boats. Here's your quotation

sunchaser wrote:
While easy to get offended if you own a Bayliner, the reality is Bayliner, Carver Silverton, Mainship et al do their best to keep costs down so they can sell a product. To those in the business in a "services detailed" way, these cost cuts are obvious. To many owners, this is exactly what they want, lots of space for not lots of money. For an easy*comparison on both costs and build quality, look at Bayliner vs Formula in the 30' to 35' range at your local boat show.

I bought 3 Searays after looking at the comparable Bayliner model, and I spent more money too, maybe not wisely. But don't beat up on Rick for stating the obvious,*read Pascoe.

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I was and am asking that you quantify those comments. What "Obvious cost cuts" are used in the construction of Bayliner Cruisers or Motoryachts. Please be specific. I can then either confirm your observations, or possibly I can educate you as to the realities of Bayliners large cruisers and Motoryachts.

I am happy to help, and will be perfectly honest in*providing real world ovservations.

*


-- Edited by ksanders on Monday 9th of January 2012 11:56:22 AM

ksanders wrote:I have read Pascoe.

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*I don't have any of his books but I have examined his website in detail.* My conclusion is that he offers a lot of good information worth checking into if one is contemplating buying a boat he reviews, but the information should all be taken with a grain of salt.* The impression I got from reading his material is that Pascoe is primarily interested in Pascoe.* To that end, he does everything he can to "stand out."* I get the impression that much of his material is negative more to draw attention to himself than to convey actual reality, although much of what he says is very real.

So while I have recommended Pascoe as a good source of information for someone contemplating getting a boat, I always add the qualifier to view his writings as being from a VERY opinionated and biased person, and to get a second or third or tenth opinion on everything he says about a particular boat.* But his stuff can be a good starting point.

Re the quality of Bayliner boats Tom has a point that if a boat sells at a lower price there must be a reason. But that reason may not necessarily be cost cutting that effects the quality of the product. There are ways that volume marketing could bring this about. If all other things were equal and company A manufactured and sold 200 boats and company B manufactured and sold 10 boats the cost of doing business to manufacture and sell one boat may be considerably higher for co B. There are many ways to make manufacturing in large volume more efficient but one generally dos'nt start out in large volume production but once there a large volume manufacturer can control a specific market for a long time. I have always heard Bayliner boats were of questionable quality but I've NEVER heard of anything specific and I'd be likely to do so as I was once employed in the boat building industry (Uniflite). So until*someone steps up to the plate and responds to Kevin's challenge I'm going to assume those who criticize Bayliner quality probably do'nt really know if it's low or high. I suspect Bayliner and Rienell made cheap chopper gun boats and gained their volum that way later cleaning up their act later on. 99.9% of the people criticizing Bayliner are just passing on what they heard by someone w an ounce more boatbuilding knowledge than they have (or less). So I've wondered about this for years myself and would welcome the opportunity to be privy to the real truth of the matter. But it's unlikely anyone on TF would have enough boat building and marketing experience to put the question straight.*

Eric Henning


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 9th of January 2012 07:22:13 PM

I worked for 3 years*as a delivery/training captain/mechanic for a Sea Ray/Meridian dealer.

I really liked the pilothouse Bayliners they had before they stopped getting those models.* I can also tell you about some of the cost cutting areas they had... but in no way did I see any that made the boat less seaworthy than much more expensive brands.* A good boat for a good price.* Perfect???* Not by a long shot but there's few boats I crawl over that aren't full of some kind of issues, bad engineering, etc...etc.

Bayliners for years had a REALLY bad rep (never the Bayliner MotorYacht division though)...but so did the early Sea Ray's.* Sea Ray just happened to clean up their act faster.* Losing a bad rep is a lot easier when there is someone else to take the heat.

A good friend that taught captain's licensing with me confirmed my opinions when he bought one.* he could have had a lot of brands...he certainly had run them all in his career and was not steered away.

Would I have bought one?* You bet.* The Hino diesels were the only dealbraker years ago...if I had investigated them further and found the parts supply/service was better than 10 years ago...then no big deal.* I would also do many upgrades on the models I was familiar with and modify the shi* out of it...but heck I'm doing it on my Albin and would on almost any other "production boat" as few I see even come close to the ideal boat.

*


-- Edited by psneeld on Monday 9th of January 2012 04:20:55 PM

nomadwilly wrote:
*But it's unlikely anyone on TF would have enough boat building and marketing experience to put the question straight.*

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Years ago, while investigating purchasing my first "big boat", I tried to answer that question. Why were the 4588s priced so far below other similar length pilot house boats? Hino engines were part of the explanation but another thing that surfaced was that the Bayliner 4588 was the first completely CAD designed boat from the bottom up. (I don't know if it's true!) Think about it...no mockups, no engineering on the fly, just build to the drawings. Make all jigs and assembly fixtures to the drawings for 1 boat or 100 boats. Take your normal profit and pass the savings on to the buyer.

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Could have happened! (They also could have attempted to scoop the market.

)* Still a best selling brokerage boat.

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*

just build to the drawings

Easy to say , harder to do.

Far easier today where a plug can be computer generated/created , and a mold created from that.

While Boeing may have the computer bucks to do the interior, wiring , piping , machinery and tankage in a computer , small boat builders will still rely on their usual trial and error to squeeze a quart in a pint pot, and have it work.