Winter storage without oil

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Lou_tribal

Lou_tribal

Guru
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
4,375
Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Bleuvet
Vessel Make
Custom Built
Hello folks,
Time to winterize is coming soon for me and it brings me a question.
Would there be any issue to keep the boat without oil in the pan for winter?
As soon as the boat is out of water I plan to make some maintenance like changing all oil hoses, water hoses and rebuilt support for the oil coolers.
As this will require me to remove oil first I was wondering if there would be any negative effect to keep oil pan empty and refill only before going back to water next spring.

Any input will be appreciated.

Thank you!

L
 
The only negative I can think of is forgetting its empty and starting her up! Otherwise, no.
 
Sorry, I'm a newcomer here and don't have any bona fides, but I would advise against it. First, when you change the oil you let it run enough to circulate the new oil through the engine. I have to believe that displaces much of the old oil along with many of the contaminants. This would leave a nice coating of oil on the internal components.

Otherwise, simply draining the oil (or leaving the old oil in the engine) would leave all of the old oil on the surface parts. I can't help but feel that's a bad idea (although I confess I have no particular expertise to back up my feeling).
 
I believe that the old advice to store an engine for the winter with new oil has been outdated by the switch to ultra low sulfur oil.


So, no technical problem with draining the oil pan, but I would put a tag on the starter switch to that effect. You never know what might happen to you and who might start the engine next spring.


David
 
Lou_tribal said:
Hello folks,

Time to winterize is coming soon for me and it brings me a question.

Would there be any issue to keep the boat without oil in the pan for winter?

As soon as the boat is out of water I plan to make some maintenance like changing all oil hoses, water hoses and rebuilt support for the oil coolers.

As this will require me to remove oil first I was wondering if there would be any negative effect to keep oil pan empty and refill only before going back to water next spring.



Any input will be appreciated.



Thank you!



L
Click to expand...



I’m not sure why your thinking that you need to drain all the oil to do those items.
I would change my oil, run the engine then winterize. You’ll probably lose a quart or so in the process of your planned maintenance. But you will have the piece of mind that your engine is well protected for the winter with clean oil. Plus you get the benefit of wiping up relatively clean oil after those two drops hit the bilge.
I just changed out my coolers and hoses and lost very little oil..... blood on the other hand....... gawd do I hate hose clamps!!!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dcbeach said:
I’m not sure why your thinking that you need to drain all the oil to do those items.
I would change my oil, run the engine then winterize. You’ll probably lose a quart or soon the process of your planned maintenance. But you will have the piece of mind that your engine is will protected for the winter with clean oil. Plus you get the benefit of wiping up relatively clean oil after those two drops hit the bilge.
I just changed out my coolers and hoses and lost very little oil..... blood on the other hand....... gawd do I hate hose clamps!!!!!
Click to expand...



I also hate auto spell check!!!!!!!
Pardon the spelling———-so, not soon—/
Well protected not, will protected......
 
Bkay said:
Sorry, I'm a newcomer here and don't have any bona fides, but I would advise against it. First, when you change the oil you let it run enough to circulate the new oil through the engine. I have to believe that displaces much of the old oil along with many of the contaminants. This would leave a nice coating of oil on the internal components.

Otherwise, simply draining the oil (or leaving the old oil in the engine) would leave all of the old oil on the surface parts. I can't help but feel that's a bad idea (although I confess I have no particular expertise to back up my feeling).
Click to expand...

I really don't think it makes any difference, old or new. Dino oil drains away leaving virtually no oil on anything, basically dry.
 
Dcbeach said:
I’m not sure why your thinking that you need to drain all the oil to do those items.
I would change my oil, run the engine then winterize. You’ll probably lose a quart or soon the process of your planned maintenance. But you will have the piece of mind that your engine is will protected for the winter with clean oil. Plus you get the benefit of wiping up relatively clean oil after those two drops hit the bilge.
I just changed out my coolers and hoses and lost very little oil..... blood on the other hand....... gawd do I hate hose clamps!!!!!
Click to expand...

Why is the engine well-protected with new oil over the winter? It all drains off into the sump leaving virtually all parts with no residual coating.
 
“As soon as the boat is out of water I plan to make some maintenance like changing all oil hoses, water hoses and rebuilt support for the oil coolers.”
Not sure why any of this requires removing oil. Oil will drain to lowest point which is the engine oil pan. Any leftover in the coolers will remain there whether you drain the oil from the pan or not.
 
So, for those who are saying there is not residual oil on any parts, what do you consider residual?

Take off your cam cover and rub your nice clean white shirt on all the surfaces.

Post the picture showing no "residual" oil.
 
The usual procedure drain while hot , refill and restart leaves the oil pump full of oil.

In the spring the oil pump , even submerged in the pan may take longer to fill with cold oil and create pressure to lube and spray inside the engine.

Synthetic drains off more than regular oils , and perhaps straight weight might leave more on the cylinder walls than thinner multi grade?
 
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Wxx3 said:
So, for those who are saying there is not residual oil on any parts, what do you consider residual?

Take off your cam cover and rub your nice clean white shirt on all the surfaces.

Post the picture showing no "residual" oil.
Click to expand...

A good test I suppose but don't wipe alĺ surfaces, just the vertically-oriented surfaces. Here's a question: why is it that, supposedly, 90% of engine wear comes from engine start-ups? Might it be because the lube oil has drained away? Methinks so. By the way, the chemical properties of synthetic oil are such that it leaves a residual film. Do a simple test. Take two socket wrenches. Coat one in your preferred dino oil and one in a synthetic diesel oil. Cover to simulate a valve cover. Come back in a month and let us know the results. I am doing the Loop right now or I would do it myself.

Here's another BTW. I just received the results of an oil analysis after 343 hours of use on a synthetic oil. Second time tested. Testing facility recommended continued use, again. TBN was almost eight (8), viscosity spot-on, soot levels within parameter, same as in the first test. Diesel oil TBN generally starts at twelve (12). Oil is still doing it's acidity mitigation with TBN levels as low as two (2) but I think oil analysis houses would recommend changing the oil at about four (4) TBN.

I changed the oil filter after the first test. However, I did go ahead and change the oil before having received the results of the second test because we were laid up in Charlevoix, Michigan for six (6) days due to high winds on Lake Michigan so I had time on my hands. My engines are Lehman 120s.

As far as basing oil changes on test results, our military does that as do many managers of large fleets of vehicles. Large fleets and large vehicles with large engines use lots of oil and there is a labor cost as well. Why throw away oil that is still able to do its job? Soot load? No. That is tested. Change the filter and go boating.
 
FF said:
The usual procedure drain while hot , refill and restart leaves the oil pump full of oil.

In the spring the oil pump , even submerged in the pan may take longer to fill with cold oil and create pressure to lube and spray inside the engine.

Synthetic drains off more than regular oils , and perhaps straight weight might leave more on the cylinder walls than thinner multi grade?
Click to expand...

Just the opposite. Synthetic stays, dino goes. It's the chemistry of synthetics that makes it cling. The molecules are all structurally the same which causes it to cling to surfaces. Do a little research and you will discover that you assumption is incorrect.
 
Some intentionally designed additives in quality diesel oil provide a cling factor. Or so says the advertising stuff like " Isothyn Technology" or lube oil forums (yes, they do exist) postings. If it were not for starts and stops our lightly used diesels may well rival shore based gensets for longevity.

But as Tony Athens has said many times, he has not seen a diesel wear out due to oil breakdown. His mantra is correct propping and maintain the seawater side. I believe him.
 
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"Just the opposite. Synthetic stays, dino goes."

There are varying opinions , but that's where DA Book (the shop manual) for your engine comes in.

Detroit prefers special preserving oils for long term periods of out of service.

They sell preserving oil , but the simplest can be a local airport , where piston engines are found.

https://www.phillips66lubricants.com/product/aviation-antirust-oil?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Aviation%20%7C%20NonBrand%20%7C%20BMM&utm_term=%2Baircraft%20%2Bengine%20%2Boil&utm_content=Aviation_NonBrand_Generic_Bing_Aviation%20Engine%20Oil_BMM


"But as Tony Athens has said many times, he has not seen a diesel wear out due to oil breakdown."


Breakdown is not the problem , rusting and pitting of cylinders in storage causes lower compression and white smoke , even with a warm engine.
 
When you put the oil back in it in the spring, just pull the lead to the shut-off solenoid and use the starter until you get oil pressure. Stop, reconnect, fire away.

Leaving your engine empty for 6 months won't hurt a thing. Rusting and pitting? Maybe in a long time but pretty much every boat out here stays in the water, is shut off in the Fall and is not started again until Spring. In fact its better to NOT start them because they will not warm up properly without a load.
 
Excuse my caution but I have seen or heard of almost every crazy thing happening in boat yards so my suggestion is a sign on the helm in both English and French that the engine lacks oil and is not to be started under any circumstance. If possible remove the key.

This is especially true if you are having any work done on the boat during the winter.
 
For SURE I will put a sign saying DO NOT START if I choose to leave it empty of oil. I did the same last spring when I disconnected coolant hoses. Knowing the clowns working at my marina I do not take any risk anymore :)

L
 
With the DO NOT START sign include the reasons so if there is a problem requiring the engine to be started, including a goofus, they know what to look for.

I do that on my own boat even though I'm the one doing all the work. It is actually easier to forget one detail than one would believe.

Lou, unless you are actually doing some work on the oil pan/sump such as replacing/adding hoses or sensors that attach low down on the sump then it should not be a concern if the sump is full of oil. I have some of these so when it's hose replacement time I must empty the sump, other wise either way will be ok.
 
Silly me but I would rather have clean, acid free residual oil film on the bearings all winter than acidic soot laced oil.
 
I don’t like the idea of no oil in the engine for an extended period of time. However I have no science behind that feeling. Please, turn the engine battery switch to off Incase you have a brain fart.
 
Aside from allowing the usual marina/yard idiots operate your engines, the only down side of no oil in the engine is maybe some rust on the pan bottom.
 
High Wire said:
Silly me but I would rather have clean, acid free residual oil film on the bearings all winter than acidic soot laced oil.
Click to expand...
So, how many hours on that acidic, soot-laced oil that you change before winter? And how do you know it is acidic and soot-laced (beyond standards)? What is the TBN of that oil you throw away? Soot levels?
 
"So, how many hours on that acidic, soot-laced oil that you change before winter?"

Who cares ?, a winter layup with an oil change is cheap insurance .

Most here have engines that hold quarts of oil not multiple gallons of synthetic .

If its an "early" change the filter can be left in place to save money.
 
Exactly....( though my engine does hold a bit over 3 gallons of oil)...best to be sure about contamination unless wondering how much......

Ahah! When in doubt have it tested.

For me, change before layup...can argue that its got to be cleaner and more acid free whether within tolerance or not.....then pull a sample after a few hours of spring running to see if the oil is still up to spec and if there were any engine malfunctionas after layup and startup.

A tidbit from a marine engine expert....

One of the reasons given for changing oil before layup is that draining the used oil removes the acids it collected in operation. The new oil will be as "acid free" as possible.

Consider this, before ULSD was the law of the land, lube oil had a high base number. It contained a large amount of alkaline additives to neutralize the acid created by sulfur compounds blowing by the rings. The "total base number" (TBN) or ability of the additive to neutralize acid must be much higher in engine burning high sulfur fuels than those burning low sulfur fuels.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30100/oil-base-number

Storing an engine with used oil that has a low base number to begin with will expose the components to more risk of acid corrosion than storing with new oil. The statement quoted by the poster might be based on the fact that since the use of ULSD has become mandatory the amount of acids found in used oil are very low compared to the bad old days when high sulfur fuel was standard. My take on it is that layup oil should have the least amount of acid possible so that the lower TBN of modern oils will reduce corrosion as much as possible as long as possible and that means change the oil before layup.

I should have added, it is good practice to run the engine after changing oil. It puts clean oil on all the parts and gives you a chance to check for leaks.
 
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catalinajack said:
So, how many hours on that acidic, soot-laced oil that you change before winter? And how do you know it is acidic and soot-laced (beyond standards)? What is the TBN of that oil you throw away? Soot levels?
Click to expand...

About 200 hours on a normal season. Don’t really care. $45 worth of oil and a filter is not worth worrying about. Reducing the risk of hauling an engine and replacement of bearings is worth it to me. I do oil samples on the outgoing oil looking for problems, not to extend oil life. We are not yet full time cruising. Maybe I’ll change my mind when that time comes.
 
psneeld said:
Exactly....( though my engine does hold a bit over 3 gallons of oil)...best to be sure about contamination unless wondering how much......

Ahah! When in doubt have it tested.

For me, change before layup...can argue that its got to be cleaner and more acid free whether within tolerance or not.....then pull a sample after a few hours of spring running to see if the oil is still up to spec and if there were any engine malfunctionas after layup and startup.

A tidbit from a marine engine expert....

One of the reasons given for changing oil before layup is that draining the used oil removes the acids it collected in operation. The new oil will be as "acid free" as possible.

Consider this, before ULSD was the law of the land, lube oil had a high base number. It contained a large amount of alkaline additives to neutralize the acid created by sulfur compounds blowing by the rings. The "total base number" (TBN) or ability of the additive to neutralize acid must be much higher in engine burning high sulfur fuels than those burning low sulfur fuels.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30100/oil-base-number

Storing an engine with used oil that has a low base number to begin with will expose the components to more risk of acid corrosion than storing with new oil. The statement quoted by the poster might be based on the fact that since the use of ULSD has become mandatory the amount of acids found in used oil are very low compared to the bad old days when high sulfur fuel was standard. My take on it is that layup oil should have the least amount of acid possible so that the lower TBN of modern oils will reduce corrosion as much as possible as long as possible and that means change the oil before layup.

I should have added, it is good practice to run the engine after changing oil. It puts clean oil on all the parts and gives you a chance to check for leaks.
Click to expand...

Not all modern oils start out with a lower TBN. In fact many start at TBN 12. Rotella and Valvoline are 10.5 Also, please explain why , after testing my oil with 343 hours that had a starting TBN of 12, the testing house recommended continued use with a TBN of 7. And no, the oil is not acidic. The additives, TBN, neutralize the acid so older oil has no more resident acid than brand-new oil if the TBN level is still high enough ( more than 1). The idea that oil is acidic is misplaced. The additives neutralize acid same as Tums neutralize stomach acid.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
New engine are shipped without oil and they may sit in a warehouse for a long time before actually being installed and started.
Same is true for all engine powered tools.
 
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