ST44 and Steadying Sail

Waiting for my new ST44 arrival (october) I'm just wondering if there's any way to prevent the boat "tacking" left and right while at anchor.

I'm used to sailboats, and normally I keep a little mizzen sail to prevent this: do you think that the mast on the ST44 is strong enough to rig a small sail?

That will also be useful for minimizing rolling while under way..

Thanks

Federico

Roidagobert said:

Waiting for my new ST44 arrival (october) I'm just wondering if there's any way to prevent the boat "tacking" left and right while at anchor.

I'm used to sailboats, and normally I keep a little mizzen sail to prevent this: do you think that the mast on the ST44 is strong enough to rig a small sail?

That will also be useful for minimizing rolling while under way..

Thanks

Federico

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What do you mean by tacking left and right while at anchor? Do you mean just rolling side to side from wind/current/boat wakes?

Roidagobert said:

I'm used to sailboats, and normally I keep a little mizzen sail to prevent this: do you think that the mast on the ST44 is strong enough to rig a small sail?
Federico

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Almost certainly not. Even a small steadying sail can produce large forces when the wind shifts suddenly or in a wind against current situation.


You might be able to add stays that will take the load, but it all depends on where and what they attach to.


And what is the problem with tacking at anchor?



David

In my experience leaving the boat free to tack left and right for a long time (e.g. all night long) in strong wid conditions, may lead the anchor to drag, and even to a "deanchoring" (pls forgive my bad american).
Here in the med it is not uncommon to rig a staysail just to prevent this to happen.

I also thing that the ST44 mast "as is" will not take the load, and even adding some stay (not an easy task) I'm not sure the base will make it!

Roidagobert said:

In my experience leaving the boat free to tack left and right for a long time (e.g. all night long) in strong wid conditions, may lead the anchor to drag, and even to a "deanchoring" (pls forgive my bad american).
Here in the med it is not uncommon to rig a staysail just to prevent this to happen.

I also thing that the ST44 mast "as is" will not take the load, and even adding some stay (not an easy task) I'm not sure the base will make it!

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Define strong wind. How many knots/mph? All coming from one direction or changing/alternating?

If you anchor properly, I don't think a boat bobbing up and down and swaying side to side will "de-anchor" a properly set anchor. You should have plenty of chain laying flat on the sea floor after you set your anchor (more scope in deeper water/bad conditions). Then you should use a bridle with anchor hook/snubber going to your two bow cleats or install an anchor chain lock or whatever its called. You should never leave the load on the windlass. Finally make sure you have the proper anchor type for the sea floor. Some times certain sea floors are just not good for anchoring. You have to know your limits and when it will not be wise to stay on anchor. I like to pick up a mooring when I know its going to be windy or if I am staying over night in an area where the wind changes direction.

Right. I NEVER let the chain load directly on windlass, always anchor lock.
Strong winds means to me more than 40 knots. In 35 more years of med cruising, I often faced situation where 25kgs Delta anchor with 6/7 scopes of 10mm chains have been greatly improved by the staisail trick!

We once put a small tarp up on the aft part of our boom and the cable that runs to the top of the mast from the boom end. It was probably only 6 feet long and 3 feet high at the widest, and tapered to a point at the aft end which was a couple feet short of the stern.

Despite its small size, it did an amazing job of settling down our 30' boat in about 30 knot winds.

Hi Roidagobert

Putting aside the strength capability of the mast, such a sail will only help your boat face into the wind if the sail is as far aft as possible - you mentioned in your initial post a mizzen - perfect for a sail boat.

Unfortunately most "masts" on trawlers are too far forward to do this they might help as a steadying sail (rolling) but not for holding into the wind.

Another thing to consider - the deep keel of yachts and relatively low free board means they are more influenced by tide than wind so the mizzen would help to fight this. Vice versa for a power boat so in most cases, any reasonable breeze will win over tide. I know, in areas where there are big tides this doesn`t always apply but its a reasonable rule of thumb.

BTW we chartered a yacht in the Med a few years ago (southern coast of Turkey) and didn`t notice any tide to speak of.

cheers

I'd suggest anchoring a bit and seeing how it is. If it rolls too much for you, the solution is stabilizers.

Brisyboy said:

Hi Roidagobert

Putting aside the strength capability of the mast, such a sail will only help your boat face into the wind if the sail is as far aft as possible - you mentioned in your initial post a mizzen - perfect for a sail boat.

Unfortunately most "masts" on trawlers are too far forward to do this they might help as a steadying sail (rolling) but not for holding into the wind.

Another thing to consider - the deep keel of yachts and relatively low free board means they are more influenced by tide than wind so the mizzen would help to fight this. Vice versa for a power boat so in most cases, any reasonable breeze will win over tide. I know, in areas where there are big tides this doesn`t always apply but its a reasonable rule of thumb.

BTW we chartered a yacht in the Med a few years ago (southern coast of Turkey) and didn`t notice any tide to speak of.

cheers

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Confirmed: no significant tide in the Med.
I completely agree with you, but hope to find a (partial?) solution.

Thanks

BandB said:

I'd suggest anchoring a bit and seeing how it is. If it rolls too much for you, the solution is stabilizers.

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BandB roll is a different subject, and stabilizers the optimum solution.

but nothing to do with tacking at anchor: I must say that I have no experience with trawlers till now, only with sailing boats.
Maybe trawlers will have less troubles!

Roidagobert said:

BandB roll is a different subject, and stabilizers the optimum solution.

but nothing to do with tacking at anchor: I must say that I have no experience with trawlers till now, only with sailing boats.
Maybe trawlers will have less troubles!

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I know the difference but in the OP's original post, he went from tacking to rolling and I sensed that perhaps rolling was as much his concern as tacking. In general, I hear a lot more complaints over rolling than tacking although I am bothered by the shifting of position if one wants to refer to it as tacking or as swinging. I'd prefer waking in the same position I went to sleep.

After looking at Swift Trawler 44 photos, it looks like you could set up something similar to what we used. (Now that I know how well it works, I'll be making one to replace the scruffy old tarp.)

Sounds like you'll have an all chain rode. We have a combination rode, so in high winds the boat would be driven downwind, then bounce back upwind due to the elasticity in the nylon portion of the rode. When it went as far as it could go upwind, the boats bow would fall off the wind and then be driven downwind for another big bounce with a wide swing to one side or the other.

The little blue tarp on the aft end of our boom completely took that action away, and we ended up swinging back and forth a little, but in a much reduced, controlled manner.

I didn't notice the mast struggling in any way.

MurrayM said:

After looking at Swift Trawler 44 photos, it looks like you could set up something similar to what we used. (Now that I know how well it works, I'll be making one to replace the scruffy old tarp.)

Sounds like you'll have an all chain rode. We have a combination rode, so in high winds the boat would be driven downwind, then bounce back upwind due to the elasticity in the nylon portion of the rode. When it went as far as it could go upwind, the boats bow would fall off the wind and then be driven downwind for another big bounce with a wide swing to one side or the other.

The little blue tarp on the aft end of our boom completely took that action away, and we ended up swinging back and forth a little, but in a much reduced, controlled manner.

I didn't notice the mast struggling in any way.

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MurrayM thanks, this is exactly what I mean.

If this little tarp works well, I'll definitly go for it and test if the mast load doesn't seem too high.

Thanks again

Roidagobert said:

MurrayM thanks, this is exactly what I mean.

If this little tarp works well, I'll definitly go for it and test if the mast load doesn't seem too high.

Thanks again

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A line frm the stern to the shore will keep the boat in one place. It is normal practice in the Med. Be sure you stern line has a enough lenght. Special devices are sold which can roll out and in a strong (woven band) line.

Paul

We have a 36ft trawler that we use extensively in Alaska that has a steadying sail. We often get strong winds while and anchor and can identify with your experiences with the boat dancing at anchor. When the wind comes up we employ our sail and it drastically reduces the dancing, a recommendation that we strongly support. Our sail is only 41 square feet, but does an outstanding job. The sail keeps us within 10 degrees of head to wind.

Another thought...

Our boom is used for hoisting the dinghy onto modified Weaver Davits, so the booms aft end is tightly tethered to the port and starboard corners of the stern to stop it from swaying side to side.

The single tether on the ST 44 would probably result in the boom moving back and forth, reducing the riding sails effectiveness.

It seems to me that what we are after is wind resistance to the aft sides of the boat. My cockpit, aft of the salon, is open presenting no resistance from the side. I have been toying with the idea of a square tarp from the aft salon door to the stern of the boat, effectively closing that area from the side.. Maybe in the middle or maybe on both sides. That should keep the boat pointed into the wind. AND there are many strong points where I could attach the tarps.

Mr. Blu said:

A line frm the stern to the shore will keep the boat in one place. It is normal practice in the Med. Be sure you stern line has a enough lenght. Special devices are sold which can roll out and in a strong (woven band) line.

Paul

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Yes Paul, that's common in Croatian or greek waters.

Not so common elsewhere (Corsica, south France..).

That's where a staysail comes handy!

Roidagobert said:

I must say that I have no experience with trawlers till now, only with sailing boats.

Maybe trawlers will have less troubles!

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My boat will also sail at anchor quite a bit under the right conditions. A few nights ago in 20 knot winds it was really annoying. Using a bridle helps but doesn’t eliminate it.

However, every boat is different. My boat tends to fall off the wind bow first, that is what really creates the sailing at anchor. At this point, you don’t know how your boat will behave. If it does tend to tack at anchor you don’t yet know how much. So I would simply wait until you have your boat and use for a season to see if it really is a problem for you. If so, then look at some potential solutions.

I have run into this kind of wandering particularly on catamarans. Catamarans tend to wander at anchor a considerable amount. On them, a bridal from both sides of the bow to the rode helps a considerable amount. This initiates the correction earlier in the swing. A similar solution may help you reduce the Tacking". I have also left a reefed mizzen up on a ketch to minimize this issue too. The tarp on the tug mentioned above serves to similarly create a weather helm scenario while at anchor reducing the wandering.

I am currently testing out using unequal leg lengths on my bridle. It seems to help keep the bow from swinging both ways and just keep it swinging one way.

had a westsail 32 that like to do that! so, after some thinking, i connected a line to the thru hull eyebolt at the water line, that the bowsprit wqs attached to, and when anchoring, i had a way to tie it to my anchor line, so when the boat was pulling on the anchor line at the water line, not up on the bowsprit! it worked for about 90% of the swimming! one thing, i had 100 feet chain, and 300 feet of line! now eveyone has a bridle, connected to the chain, my thinking is to stop the chain rattle at nite!...another thing i do when tieing to a moorage bouy, if there is any wind/tide, i tie what i call, 'side sadle!" so the wind holds me away from the bouy!...clyde

clyde said:

had a westsail 32 that like to do that! so, after some thinking, i connected a line to the thru hull eyebolt at the water line, that the bowsprit wqs attached to, and when anchoring, i had a way to tie it to my anchor line, so when the boat was pulling on the anchor line at the water line, not up on the bowsprit! it worked for about 90% of the swimming! one thing, i had 100 feet chain, and 300 feet of line! now eveyone has a bridle, connected to the chain, my thinking is to stop the chain rattle at nite!...another thing i do when tieing to a moorage bouy, if there is any wind/tide, i tie what i call, 'side sadle!" so the wind holds me away from the bouy!...clyde

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can you please elaborate on "side sadle" ? thanks

Any updates? Since switching to all chain, bridle, and using rocker stoppers we have had good experience, but it could be luck. We get to anchor when possible, and backup is mooring.

A made for purpose mast is required, attached is mine.

jgtrucking said:

A made for purpose mast is required, attached is mine.View attachment 120575

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Is that a Trump flag?

Last month we took a mooring from Safe Harbor Beaufort SC to ride out TS Danny. Winds were probably a steady 35kt maybe gusting to 40kt . My boat was tacking back and forth 60 degrees in each direction . Every time the boat tacked back in the other direction the approx 3” or maybe 4” diameter tether from the 36” diameter mooring ball would snap tight and completely submerge the mooring ball. No way my anchor could endure such force and stay set. I am going to work on a riding sail, fortunately I have a mast that can handle it.

mystery said:

Is that a Trump flag?

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Yes