Rudder pos.+autopilot+power steering?

Can all these be installed in one package? I have a hydraulic steering system, which works, but very hard to steer. I do not have rudder indicator, nor autopilot.
It would be nice to have them all, but the autopilot can wait. Unless, there is a nice solution for all of these?
I certainly need the rudder indicator. The steering wheel is huge, possibly for sailboats. I have motorboat.
Anyone have an opinion on my needs, perhaps recommend a solution? One by one, or all at once to save money?
See photos.

"I have a hydraulic steering system, which works, but very hard to steer."


Why / How is it hard to steer?

Virtually all modern auto pilots have all those features.

Good point about finding the source of the hard steering first.

From your pictures ,it looks to be a very robust & professional setup you have but the dual,push pull steering cylinders with the short throw and short tiller arms look to be best suited/designed for a power-assisted pump not not a manual helm. I've seen lots on them here on the east coast, mostly used in down-east & Nova Scotia built commercial boats. They all have the short-ram, close-throw setup at the rudder but are also all power assisted by engine driven pumps. I could see why it would be hard to steer with a manual helm pump & so little tiller leverage at the rudder post, in addition to the two cylinders being linked in series.
You would probably need a higher volume autopilot pump which needs a larger pilot to drive it which means more $$. They would all give you a rudder position indicator. That's the cheapest part!

boomerang said:

From your pictures ,it looks to be a very robust & professional setup you have but the dual,push pull steering cylinders with the short throw and short tiller arms look to be best suited/designed for a power-assisted pump not not a manual helm. I've seen lots on them here on the east coast, mostly used in down-east & Nova Scotia built commercial boats. They all have the short-ram, close-throw setup at the rudder but are also all power assisted by engine driven pumps. I could see why it would be hard to steer with a manual helm pump & so little tiller leverage at the rudder post, in addition to the two cylinders being linked in series.
You would probably need a higher volume autopilot pump which needs a larger pilot to drive it which means more $$. They would all give you a rudder position indicator. That's the cheapest part!

Click to expand...

I think you have nailed it. This is exactly what could be my problem. I am not saying I cannot steer, but it takes forever to turn the wheel to the right position. In a tough situation that is not safe, or even dangerous. Docking can be very tricky with current and wind, if you don't know where the rudder is and takes a while to position it.

Do you have any recommendations on the power steering installation?

A couple things I might add:

Count your steering wheel turns lock-to-lock. If it takes a lot of turns, power steering will not fix that. Typical boat is 3-4 turns. Mine is 6.5, which is annoying when docking. I do have electric over hydraulic power steering, and it makes it easy to turn but no faster going lock to lock. I may change my helm for more cu.in./rev or change rudder cylinder for fewer cu.in./stroke.

Regarding the steering being stiff, take the rudder cylinders loose and then manually stroke rudder stop-to-stop. See how hard it is to move. Might have something going on that tube causing binding.

boomerang said:

From your pictures ,it looks to be a very robust & professional setup you have but the dual,push pull steering cylinders with the short throw and short tiller arms look to be best suited/designed for a power-assisted pump not not a manual helm. I've seen lots on them here on the east coast, mostly used in down-east & Nova Scotia built commercial boats. They all have the short-ram, close-throw setup at the rudder but are also all power assisted by engine driven pumps. I could see why it would be hard to steer with a manual helm pump & so little tiller leverage at the rudder post, in addition to the two cylinders being linked in series.
You would probably need a higher volume autopilot pump which needs a larger pilot to drive it which means more $$. They would all give you a rudder position indicator. That's the cheapest part!

Click to expand...

I've had yrs. of experience with "N.S." power steering. I agree with you that his "hard Steering" is due to using short stroke cylinders on short tiller arms. Very little leverage in this setup.That is why the giant steering wheel is used-for leverage.
These rams & arms would work fine with an engine driven power steering pump or a suitably (volume) sized electro hydraulic pump & jog lever.


Heavy Duty marine Power steering


The solutions are either:


1. Electro hydraulic pump (common autopilot pump) & jog lever or charlynn orbitrol power steering helm



2. Engine driven power steering pump (as sold by Marine Hydraulics) link above with jog lever or charlynn orbitrol.


3. New tiller arm 12" long and 12" stroke single cylinder. This will give you the proper leverage to reduce steering wheel diameter &/Or number of turns lock-lock to 4 or less.
You can then stay with your existing manual hydraulic helm.


In any of the above,the pump vol. output must be sized to move the cyl. volumn Lock-Lock in 4 turns or less.



Any decent autopilot can be interfaced to either of the above solutions.
My experience with commercial vessels has been that any modern autopilot will steer about any vessel as long as the rudder drive components & heading input to pilot are suitable.


Len

I'm sure you experts can convince me, but I fail to see an issue with the steering ram arrangement - it seems to me that any hydraulic system will work fine if the helm pump is properly matched to the ram arrangement. You can use a lower volume helm pump with short rams or a higher volume pump with long rams and get essentially the same results. Am I missing something?

Is the issue with stiffness/effort required, or just with losing track of rudder angle? My system is about six turns lock to lock but I can easily spin the wheel. I rely on my rudder indicator heavily in docking and close quarters maneuvering. Without it I'm in trouble, but with it the system works fine for me.

Jeff F said:

I'm sure you experts can convince me, but I fail to see an issue with the steering ram arrangement - it seems to me that any hydraulic system will work fine if the helm pump is properly matched to the ram arrangement. You can use a lower volume helm pump with short rams or a higher volume pump with long rams and get essentially the same results. Am I missing something?

Is the issue with stiffness/effort required, or just with losing track of rudder angle? My system is about six turns lock to lock but I can easily spin the wheel. I rely on my rudder indicator heavily in docking and close quarters maneuvering. Without it I'm in trouble, but with it the system works fine for me.

Click to expand...

With manual hydraulic steering,the helm pump must put out a volumn of oil per revolution in order to move the cyl. a certain distance of stroke. At the same time,that vol. of oil must be under sufficient pressure to move the cyl. piston against the back pressure from the rudder.Your arms are the source of the required pressure in a manual system.


Pressure required to push a 6" long tiller arm against a rudder force is double the pressure reqd. if tiller arm is 12".



Len

Ski in NC said:

Regarding the steering being stiff, take the rudder cylinders loose and then manually stroke rudder stop-to-stop. See how hard it is to move. Might have something going on that tube causing binding.

Click to expand...

I did count the turns. In my case it is 7.75 lock-to-lock.

What do you mean by loosen the rudder cylinders? Disconnect them from rudder?

deblen said:

The solutions are either:
3. New tiller arm 12" long and 12" stroke single cylinder. This will give you the proper leverage to reduce steering wheel diameter &/Or number of turns lock-lock to 4 or less.
You can then stay with your existing manual hydraulic helm.
Len

Click to expand...

Len
Is solution #3 the easiest to remedy this problem immediately? Can I do this myself, or requires professional knowledge?
I would certainly want powered steering at one point, but I need a solution fairly quickly for now.
My turn is 7.75 end to end. This is a lot of wheeling, when things are tight. Of course, not having a rudder indicator does not help either.

deblen said:

Pressure required to push a 6" long tiller arm against a rudder force is double the pressure reqd. if tiller arm is 12".

Len

Click to expand...

Sure, but at the same time volume required is 1/2 to turn the rudder a set amount. The net mechanical advantage is a function of pump capacity, ram volume, and the length of the lever the ram operates on. You can change any of these to change the net mechanical advantage. If you stick with the 6" in your example you could get the same pressure/volume requirements as a 12" attachment by doubling the volume of the ram.

At the end of the day it's a trade-off between effort turning the wheel vs the amount of rudder movement for a revolution of the wheel. Ram size and placement is one component of that, but not the only one.

It's all about the mechanics. You can calculate how much force is required to turn your rudder, decide how much rudder angle you want, figure out your arm length and cylinder throw to get what you want.
Not hard to understand from looking at the pictures why your helm is heavy. Lever arms are really short. From what little I know this dual cylinder short arm arrangement is an east coast lobster boat thing. It does a couple of good things, it's compact, can provide large rudder angles and it doesn't put any side load on your top rudder bearing. Problem is that its low mechanical advantage, I've only seen it used with power steering, usually hydraulic.
Your boat is big enough that you could consider power steering but it's probably $7k worth of stuff and someone who knows what they're doing to install it.
You could also look at redesigning your manual steering, you'd keep your Kobelt helm pump, which is a good one, but new lines, cylinder and arm. That would be less expensive, you could likely end up with less steering load, but you will never end up with light steering.
If it was me and I just wanted to try something that wasn't expensive to see if it helped I'd replace the lines from the helm pump back to the cylinders with 1/2" ID copper and your helm pump has adjustable output, so adjust that to less flow. Small hydraulic lines, looks like your hose is 3/8" or less, really add friction and no matter what you end up doing the 1/2" lines can stay. By adjusting the pump, the screw above the steering shaft, you change the pump output per revolution so you will be trading more turns for less load.
After saying all this the first step is understanding your rudder load. It's not hard to calculate, Dave Gerr writes a good book that includes the calc and they were reprinted in an old issue of Professional Boatbuilder.
And the suggestion of just putting on a 12" arm and using a 12" cylinder may or may not work depending on you rudder loading but would result in rudder deflections of less than 25 degrees, which most would consider too little for proper maneuvering.
On using the jog function on your autopilot to steer, most autopilot hydraulic pump are fixed output and designed to provide a turn rate that works with the autopilot, this is normally too slow a rate to be used for maneuvering.

The amount of work required to turn the rudder is the same, regardless of the cylinder and helm pump. Short tiller arms and small volume pump, or long tiller arms and large volume pump result in the same effort. "Effort" here seems to confuse two things: the number of turns required to lock the rudder, and the force required to turn the wheel. You can exchange one for the other, but there is no free lunch. Unless there is excessive friction in the rudder bearings or the rudder itself is an unusual shape.

So I did a little quick googling. That twin 200 series cylinder is the configuration that Teleflex recommends for your size boat. They spec using their 1275v helm pump, so I compared that to Kobelt, which is the manufacturer of the pump you have. The Kobelt 7005 pump has the same output as the 1275v. So you should verify that your pump is a 7005, it's marked on it somewhere. I could not find in the Teleflex literature where they recommend a tiller arm length so I just did the trig, if you want 35 degrees of rudder deflection, which is what they use, you need a 5" tiller arm. So you could measure from the rudder shaft centerline to the center of the hole in the arm where the cylinder bolts and see what you have.
So if you have a 7005 pump and 5" tiller arm length you pretty much have the configuration that Teleflex recommends for your size boat. Curiously they also recommend a max steering wheel diameter of 36", I'm not sure why they care.
Also Teleflex does recommend 5/8" OD copper tube for the hydraulic lines for their 1275v pump. So the same size as I suggested you try on your boat.
The other thing that has not been suggested is that you check your rudder bearings and see if they are causing additional friction. Try unbolting your cylinders and see if you can turn the rudder by hand.

Normally in a hydraulic steering install, a rudder angle indicator is also installed. Often on wheels you'll see a marker for the rudder midships position. It doesn't work on hydraulic because the mark will gradually move in relation to midships, because there isn't a mechanical link between the rudder and wheel. So you need an indicator.

The autopilot for hydraulic steering comes with a pump. As an autopilot option, you can add a jog stick to operate the rudder via the pump without using the wheel. That's what I do. I rarely touch the wheel. Having an autopilot is like having an extra person on board. You still need to run a proper watch, but you're not tied to the wheel. Autopilots are especially nice on long, straight courses. I use my autopilot nearly 100% of the time.

sean9c said:

So I did a little quick googling. That twin 200 series cylinder is the configuration that Teleflex recommends for your size boat. They spec using their 1275v helm pump, so I compared that to Kobelt, which is the manufacturer of the pump you have. The Kobelt 7005 pump has the same output as the 1275v. So you should verify that your pump is a 7005, it's marked on it somewhere. I could not find in the Teleflex literature where they recommend a tiller arm length so I just did the trig, if you want 35 degrees of rudder deflection, which is what they use, you need a 5" tiller arm. So you could measure from the rudder shaft centerline to the center of the hole in the arm where the cylinder bolts and see what you have.
So if you have a 7005 pump and 5" tiller arm length you pretty much have the configuration that Teleflex recommends for your size boat. Curiously they also recommend a max steering wheel diameter of 36", I'm not sure why they care.
Also Teleflex does recommend 5/8" OD copper tube for the hydraulic lines for their 1275v pump. So the same size as I suggested you try on your boat.
The other thing that has not been suggested is that you check your rudder bearings and see if they are causing additional friction. Try unbolting your cylinders and see if you can turn the rudder by hand.

Click to expand...

The results:
Helm Pump - 7005
Tiller length - 6"
Wheel dia - 40"
Hose dia - 3/8 see photos
Hose length - aprx. 35-40' - boat is 54' total
Rudder - won't turn by hand, after disconnecting the cylinders

The rudder is large and there is plenty of grease visible at the tiller area. I cannot what is below? There is greasing nipple in the middle of the rudder cylinder and it has some grease residue. I suspect it was greased at some point.
Should this still turn by hand if the bearing were in good shape? I tried to hammer it, but it would not move.

Lepke said:

The autopilot for hydraulic steering comes with a pump. As an autopilot option, you can add a jog stick to operate the rudder via the pump without using the wheel. That's what I do.

Click to expand...

Where is your autopilot pump connected to the system? At the helm, or at the rudder?

DDW said:

Unless there is excessive friction in the rudder bearings or the rudder itself is an unusual shape.

Click to expand...

The rudder seems to have a rectangular shape. At least, this is what I can see on the only haul-out photo I have.

The bearings can be good or bad, I cannot tell. I am not sure how easy it is to get to the rudder's vertical shaft? I can try to open it one day, but it looks very heavy duty.

LeoKa said:

Len
Is solution #3 the easiest to remedy this problem immediately? Can I do this myself, or requires professional knowledge?
I would certainly want powered steering at one point, but I need a solution fairly quickly for now.
My turn is 7.75 end to end. This is a lot of wheeling, when things are tight. Of course, not having a rudder indicator does not help either.

Click to expand...

Sean is giving you good advice. / Len

Assuming your steering isn't binding up somehow, the only thing you can trade off with different tiller arm lengths, cylinder sizes, and steering pump sizes is the steering force required to turn the wheel, and the number of turns stop to stop. More turns equals less force required, and vice versa. And a bigger wheel will make it easier to turn, but a longer distance around the wheel rim.


Checking for binding would be the first step, it seems, Disconnect the rams from the tiller arm and confirm that the tiller can be moved without binding, and that the wheel moves the rams without binding.


Our steering is heavy, even at 10 turns lock to lock. Follow-up steering is a must for maneuvering.

If the rudder won't turn by hand ( with the cylinders unhooked ) on that long tiller arm in front there's part of your problem. No reason it wouldn't turn unless something is bound up.
How is the steering with the cylinders unhooked ??? If it's 'easy' then the rudder is the problem.
Ever check the fluid level and bleed the system ??
Just a couple ideas....

The fact that you can't move the rudder at all by hand with the cylinders disconnected sure sounds like it could be part or all of your problem. No way to know more until you figure out what's up with that.
The fitting on the top of the cylinder is likely for bleeding, don't grease that. There may be a grease fitting at the mounting end of the cylinder to grease the trunnion.
The fact that you have 3/8" hose, and that it's all hose sure doesn't help. You have to remember that when the fluid is moving it's moving in both lines, so the resistance is as much as 80ft of hose length.

LeoKa said:

The results:
Helm Pump - 7005
Tiller length - 6"
Wheel dia - 40"
Hose dia - 3/8 see photos
Hose length - aprx. 35-40' - boat is 54' total
Rudder - won't turn by hand, after disconnecting the cylinders

The rudder is large and there is plenty of grease visible at the tiller area. I cannot what is below? There is greasing nipple in the middle of the rudder cylinder and it has some grease residue. I suspect it was greased at some point.
Should this still turn by hand if the bearing were in good shape? I tried to hammer it, but it would not move.

Click to expand...

The rudder looks ordinary, even has some balance area ahead of the post.

You should be able to turn the rudder by hand with the cylinders disconnected. This may be the problem or a large part of it. You could try greasing it and then work it back and forth with a large lever (or reconnect the cylinders to do it) - it is possible the grease has become hard and congealed.

The rudder will have a couple of bearing surfaces: the radial ones which we normally think of as the rudder bearings, also somewhere a vertical one that carries the weight of the rudder. Either can add significant friction.

sean9c said:

The fitting on the top of the cylinder is likely for bleeding, don't grease that. There may be a grease fitting at the mounting end of the cylinder to grease the trunnion.

Click to expand...

I was talking about a greasing nipple in the back of the rudder shaft. See photo.
It is at the middle down from the top, where the tiller assembly is.

DDW said:

The rudder will have a couple of bearing surfaces: the radial ones which we normally think of as the rudder bearings, also somewhere a vertical one that carries the weight of the rudder. Either can add significant friction.

Click to expand...

I suspect, this can only be determined, if the boat is hauled out?
Shall I try to remove the tiller and look inside? Or, all the bearings are below anyway? As you see on the photo, there is lot of grease around the tiller.

sean9c said:

The fact that you have 3/8" hose, and that it's all hose sure doesn't help. You have to remember that when the fluid is moving it's moving in both lines, so the resistance is as much as 80ft of hose length.

Click to expand...

Regardless what the issue with the bearings at the rudder, I still consider to replace the hoses. Would it make any difference, if the hoses will have to have proper couplers to connect to the cylinders at the rudder and to the helm pump in the PH? If only the hoses are replaced, but using the existing cylinders and helm pump. See photo.

The grease fitting is for waterproof grease. It keeps the shaft and tube lubed and some is forced up by water pressure and lubes the bottom side of the seal. W/O grease you could have marine growth. Grease fittings are common in large prop shafts, too.
I have Wagner hydraulic steering with a single 3" cylinder and twin rudders. 3.5 turns lock to lock with about the same size wheel. Whoever installed it used 3/4" id copper pipe that necks down to 1/2" hoses to fit the cylinder. I wouldn't say it's easy, but easier than cable steering.

Lepke said:

The grease fitting is for waterproof grease. It keeps the shaft and tube lubed and some is forced up by water pressure and lubes the bottom side of the seal. W/O grease you could have marine growth. Grease fittings are common in large prop shafts, too.
I have Wagner hydraulic steering with a single 3" cylinder and twin rudders. 3.5 turns lock to lock with about the same size wheel. Whoever installed it used 3/4" id copper pipe that necks down to 1/2" hoses to fit the cylinder. I wouldn't say it's easy, but easier than cable steering.

Click to expand...

I think my main problem is that I cannot move the rudder by hand. The bearings need to be checked for sure. I just don't know how? Even if I haul it out, I have never done job like this.

Meanwhile, I found the manual of the helm pump and it says that the model I have 7005 requires 5/8 hose for a boat steering system length 50-60 feet. The 3/8 hose is good for boats between 30-50 feet. I am 54 feet.

From your haulout photo, it looks like the rudder has a heel bearing, so it isn't going to fall out of the boat. Often the tiller arm itself acts as the thrust bearing, you'd like to have a means to clamp and retain the rudder if you loosen it in the water without knowing all the details. I'd start first by a bunch of pumps of grease and then working the rudder back and forth. Ultimately you may only find the reason on haul out. Perhaps the heel bearing is no longer aligned with the rudder tube.