It's Occured to Me.........

As most of you know, I love this forum! I've learned much since 2007 about all things trawlering. Much more to go. But I can't help but wonder how many potential boaters we are scaring off with our trials and tribulation posts.

Single or twins, Bruce or sarca, Fiberglass or Aluminum, Cummins, Cats, Volvo, FLs, etc? Spares, how many and what are they? Propane or diesel? Fuel polishing or not? Dinghys...metal, fiberglass, soft bottom, hard bottom, etc?

Out boards....2 stroke, 4 stroke, big or small, brand and the davit system to handle them? Bow thrusters, stern thrusters, both? Docking, undocking, cruise, fast or slow, Bottom paint..what kind, best brand, how often?

Notice I haven't addressed the interior (except the ER) yet.

What's my point? People that frequent/subscribe to this site have already invested time and money pursuing this wonderful pastime. They are here because they are interested in our passion. But what about the novice that only dreams of having a boat? Are we scaring him/her off or is the price of entry to TF that one must have previous experience first?

WAlt,

Do'nt you think we could be doing them a favor by scaring them off? * Especially in this sour economy. But I think getting their eyes wide open before the troubles really begins is so much more positive than the assumed negative of scaring them off I'd say lets keep on scaring them and the weakly interested will stay away and the seriously interested will read on or jump in share w us. We have a little bear cub 6' from the living room windows (took a dozen pics) digging corn chips out of the snow that Chris put there for her bird friends.

eric,
I would hate to scare someone off from boating. While it makes no financial sense (neither does spending thousands on a big plasma TV!), the family time and time in nature are well worth the cost IMO.

I think TF is a great site for those dreaming of a trawler but need to check dreams with the reality of owning an old boat (or even a new/expensive boat!).

A lot of people new to boating and boats have notions and ideas about must haves, must not do without any real basis. Just what they have heard from equally unknowledgeable friends. I know I was in that situation when starting, hmm, maybe not that much has changed.

Hopefully no one is scared off unless they were not really interested in the first place, but rather get their eyes opened and maybe some new info from us and a slightly altered manner of looking at boating for the better.


-- Edited by C lectric on Thursday 22nd of December 2011 01:10:47 PM

SeaHorse II wrote:
*

Single or twins, Bruce or sarca, Fiberglass or Aluminum, Cummins, Cats, Volvo, FLs, etc? Spares, how many and what are they? Propane or diesel? Fuel polishing or not? Dinghys...metal, fiberglass, soft bottom, hard bottom, etc?

Out boards....2 stroke, 4 stroke, big or small, brand and the davit system to handle them? Bow thrusters, stern thrusters, both? Docking, undocking, cruise, fast or slow, Bottom paint..what kind, best brand, how often?

People that frequent/subscribe to this site have already invested time and money pursuing this wonderful pastime. They are here because they are interested in our passion. But what about the novice that only dreams of having a boat? Are we scaring him/her off or is the price of entry to TF that one must have previous experience first?

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*The opposite of this would be " we purchased a great yacht.. steamed it for years..saw lots of stuff ( got the pictures to prove it )....don't want to talk about maintenance/reno's or trials and errors on upgrades cause it isn't apart of this Forum ".

I say this forum puts everything into perspective with owing a boat and all the topics need to be on the table. It brings reality to any potential owners who dreams of enjoying this passion and for those that are new, it brings knowlege based experience that would take years to accumilate by oneself. The collective knowlege here is priceless.

Oh ya.. Merry Christmas to all here. If all of you down south would like for me to send you all some snow in a bag just to bring the season a little closer to what winter has to offer, just give me your mailing address and I will post it.... haha*

Elwin & Peg*

You can't walk until you can crawl. Enthusiast forums like this are for people who can already walk. They are not good places for people who have yet to crawl to come to or learn from. They will find it confusing, and boating (or whatever) will seem to be full of polarizing conflicts and arguments (anchors, number of engines, etc.).

Flying is no different. To the few people I have talked to over the years who are interested in getting into boating (or flying) but who had zero experience I have always recommended that they NOT look at ANY internet forums at all that are devoted to flying or boating discussions.

In terms of boating, I suggest that they try to meet people with a boat similar to what they are interested in and talk to them about the pros and cons. Or do what most people do and start out with a cheap skiff, then if they like that graduate up to a trailer boat, and so on. But jumping into a boating forum like this one with no experience at all in boating is an almost sure way to discourage someone from pursuing it. Boating forums, for the most part, present a very negative view of boating as the forums consist mostly of "I do it this way, you're doing it the wrong way" posts and arguments. They can lead someone without a firm foundation in boating to get an entirely wrong picture of what it's all about.

The internet is a great way to find out information once you know and understand the basics of what it is you want the infomation for, what you want it to be about, and you have learned from experience how to judge bad information from good information. But I think it's a terrible place to learn about an activity from scratch because of the "It must be true, I read it on the internet" factor that gives weight and credibility*to every argument no matter how ridiculous or wrong it might be (OTDE is a prime example of this).

I'm a big proponent of real-life learning and experience. I got into both flying and boating without the "benefit" of the internet and if the internet did not exist today it would make no difference whatsoever to how we've pursued and enjoyed*our flying or our boating. Virtually everything I've needed to know about equipping, operating, maintaining, or repairing out boat has come from real people in face-to-face discussions. I cannot think of a single instance in the 13 years we've owned our boat that a boating forum has provided me with information I either did not already have or already knew how to get directly from a local professional. In this regard, forums like TF can be very entertaining but they are not at all necessary to the boating experience. At least not our boating experience. Others will undoubtedly feel differently.

The one exception is the Grand Banks owners forum, which is no different than talking to a professional shipwright about something (because that's who I talk to over there).

So I am not surprised that very few people new to boating or thinking about getting into boating come to or participate in this forum. I believe they are far better off by staying away until such time that they have taken the plunge and gotten into boating on their own in one way or the other.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 22nd of December 2011 01:38:04 PM

superdiver wrote:
or wife! You have to take every forum with a grain of salt, given that people tend to say things in the digital world that they would NEVER say in the real world! ...

I doubt that most people take us as seriously as we take ourselves....

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What I write on this forum is exactly how I would talk to the people on this forum were I to meet them in person.* If I say I have no interest in meeting anyone from this forum in person, that's exactly what I mean and that is what I will tell you to your face should you see me on our boat and come over thinking to strike up a conversation.

I deal with people all around the world on a daily basis, either in person, by e-mail, or on the phone.* One of primary attractions to me of both flying and boating is that*they*allow me to get away from human contact for awhile.* With the exception of a tiny handful of very close and long-time friends, when I'm on the boat I don't want to deal with anyone other than my wife and our dog.

As to your second sentence I quoted above, I think you are absolutely*right on the money.

Marin,

Thanks for posting the picture of you in the China post. It will help. ;-)

SeaHorse II wrote:What's my point? People that frequent/subscribe to this site have already invested time and money pursuing this wonderful pastime. They are here because they are interested in our passion. But what about the novice that only dreams of having a boat? Are we scaring him/her off or is the price of entry to TF that one must have previous experience first?

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*As someone who hasn't purchased a trawler yet, I'd say the mix around here is just about right. Lots of different people, with different types of boats and different opinions. If I were looking to find a forum where everyone agreed with and reinforced my choice, well I would just go to an owners forum of the type of boat I purchase. IMO, we show up, read, ask a few questions, retain the stuff we think is useful, and discard that which doesn't work for us.

Regarding price: whether you are driving a $X,000 or a $X,000,000 boat, it's probably not your first. Life is about making choices based on what works for you and what you can afford. As many have done on this forum, you can always trade up as your situation changes.

*

Ted

For the new people getting into boating, there's a multitude of sources for information that most of us never had access. *We had to learn a lot of things by doing that can be learned by just asking today. *I have to admit that it was fun learning.

Manufacturers and dealers (to relatively new boaters) sell the ideal that you see in the advertising. *I suppose we ought to have a sticky entitled "Cold Water in the Face". *The realities of boating are quite different from what most boaters imagine. *As I tell people that ask me, "Buying a boat is one thing. *Living with a boat is quite another. *

This forum is a place for sharing, learning, entertainment, and a little cold water. *New comers are probably more welcome here than most forums of this sort. *Besides, some of the new comers have as much or more experience than the old hands.

All in all, I think John and Doug put together a pretty good balance. *Seems to work. *Thanks guys.

Doc wrote:
Marin,

Thanks for posting the picture of you in the China post. It will help. ;-)

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I had to leave the cormorant in China so you won't be able to distinguish me from all the other bozos in the marina.

Marin wrote:What I write on this forum is exactly how I would talk to the people on this forum were I to meet them in person.* If I say I have no interest in meeting anyone from this forum in person, that's exactly what I mean and that is what I will tell you to your face should you see me on our boat and come over thinking to strike up a conversation.

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_____________________________________________________

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Merry Christmas, Marin. Here's your card.

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http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/JJNNkVGHpJK3HAAi

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SeaHorse II wrote:Merry Christmas, Marin. Here's your card.

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Excellent.* I've seen JibJab's stuff before and it's pretty clever.* I've always wondered if trees feel anything when you cut them down.

Marin wrote:
*

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If I say I have no interest in meeting anyone from this forum in person, that's exactly what I mean and that is what I will tell you to your face should you see me on our boat and come over thinking to strike up a conversation.

Wow, you must be the life*at a*party.

Personally, I find the folks here to be quite engaging and*would be quite*happy to meet them either out*on the water or*on land over a BBQ.

I think the word is ..uh .. uh..* camaradery.

Sometimes I think you take life too seriously.

Merry Christmas**** whether you like it or not.*****

KJ wrote:
Wow, you must be the life*at a*party.

Sometimes I think you take life too seriously.

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I*can be but I'm*very*selective about the parties I go to.* Boating parties are not on the list.*

And no, I don't take life too seriously.* In fact, it's just the opposite.* Most things in life*are not worth getting very wrapped up over.* That's why I have little interest in meeting other boaters because mostly all they want to*do is sit around and talk about boats and boating.* Im interested in our two boats and what we do with them, but I'm not much interested in other boats-- at least not recreational boats.

PT boats, fishing boats, tugs,*and other working boats are a*whole different story although I am much more interested in the people who operate them than in the boats themselves.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 22nd of December 2011 05:41:50 PM

I was just getting to do a "Big Thank You" to this forum for helping me out. Then I read this and felt it was appropiate to just post on here. *I am not new to boating but recently purchased my first trawler- ya that one down in panama 48' Hatteras LRC back in June that many said was a waste of money and some said go for it and I knew I wanted it but i got a lot of eduation here from people more wiser than me and they gave me advice what to look for and what to do. *I asked question after question and I got answer after answer with what to do or options. *I feel this site is a HUGE asset to me and I feel like I am just a taker and not a giver*(I don't feel I have much to offer right now).

But I want to Thank everyone for helping my dreams come true, I just recently asked how to go about getting crew and that my crew of friends back home all Bailed last minute and within 2 hours I had response from someone willing to help and hooked me up with another willing to help (a qualified delivery capt that he worked with several times) which is what I felt I needed for a little training on offshore cruising and entry & exiting a country. *With this forum that all came possible within a day or two details were hammered out and tickets were purchased and we are meeting on Dec 29th in Panama and hope to be under way soon after.

Sorry to ramble but I am also a member on some other forums and this truly has been the most helpful in terms of what I "really need to do" and getting problems solved and most of all meeting people!!!

Safe travels and I will keep everyone posted and send pics of trip from Boca Del Toro to Rio Dulce, Guatemala. *estimated 800-900 kt mile trip 6 days at sea and I am excited. *Yes we have an epirb...*

I don't think a forum like this is going to scare off anyone iterested in diving in and buying whatever the topic of the forum is.* I came here a bit before buying the trawler--frequently my google queries resulted in hits to this site--and got lots of great info and DID decide to go for it and purchase a so called "trawler".* I am thinking of getting a motorcycle and again my googling has led me to many motorcycling forums--and let me tell you if a motorcycling forum won't scare you off from buying a motorcycle, nothing will.* I find these types of forums provide a reality check and help me make a decision with as much info as possible.* Most people can tell opinion from fact and can make an informed decision.

Merry Christmas all!*

I tink that too many "big boat dreamers" get into this hobby/lifestyle without a realistic understanding about the expenses and or work that owning a large boat entails.

Forums like this help to bring a little reality back into their dreams.

If a few get scared out of their first boat purchase, then that's probably for the better.

I for one think that for the most part the first time boater, *"big boat dreamers" are setting themselves up for failure. All they think is size, and how much fun it will be in their new "trawler". Without some basis of knowledge they can and do quickly find themselves in over their heads with a big expensive boat that they have neither the aptitude or financial ability to maintain.

If this and other forums can help people from making a big mistake then thats great. If they get scared and decide that their entry point into boating should be a little smaller, less complicated boat then they have a much higher percentage chance of becoming long term boaters.


-- Edited by ksanders on Friday 23rd of December 2011 01:00:46 AM

Sometimes I wish I had found this forum BEFORE I bought my boat. If I did and listened to the experience talking on this forum, I might have reconsidered twins in favor of a single. Not an earth shattering difference to me, but if I knew then what I know now, I'd probably have a single with a thruster. Although I love redundancy, I've had more issues with having unprotected props than reliability.

I think the contributions of the forum's participants is head and shoulders above other boating sites I've encountered. It's the focus on trawlers that weeds out many others more focused on bass boats, wakeboard boats, go fast boats and pontoons. Our issues and experiences tend to be more focused on the shared needs of the group. I enjoy the banter and personality of many of the members and find myself perusing the posts for entertainment as much as for learning.

Just wish I had found it earlier...

SeaHorse II wrote:
I can't help but wonder how many potential boaters we are scaring off with our trials and tribulation posts.

But what about the novice that only dreams of having a boat? Are we scaring him/her off or is the price of entry to TF that one must have previous experience first?

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As a potential boater a couple months ago headstrong and sure that I knew what I was looking for, I signed on and started posting questions and getting feedback. Not all of it was what I wanted to hear, but it was what I needed to hear. I thank all of you who have given feedback both in the forum and the PM system, it has helped us out a lot.

*

I have purchased 2 boats in as many months after sifting through the feedback received. At the risk of getting tossed outta here on my ear we decided to not purchase a power cruiser/trawler style boat at all. We are very happy with our small sailboat. It fits all our criteria, that you forum members helped us establish. The search feature allowed us to glean as much info from the old forgotten threads as the direct inquiries we made.

*

ksanders said it best:"Forums like this help to bring a little reality back into their dreams."

*

Thank you to the members of TF for putting the reality into our dreams that made our dreams a reality. We now own a boat that will take us wherever we desire to travel. When the time is right we will add a larger boat to our blossoming armada, when that time comes we will be coming in with a much clearer expectation of what we desire our boat to be.

*

Thanks to all ~ Craig

The boards are a far better place fore a newby to get the "big picture" than the local boat dealer.

The horror stories I get from visiting folks could make a dozen books!

Good luck with the ocean delivery passage Otis. I hope the weather is kind to you, but you boat looks big enough to handle most likely to be thrown at you. I was hoping to be merely daring enough to venture out of our rather large bay here off Brisbane, and proceed up the outside of the ringing islands and come in at the top. Merely 100 nm at most - a long days run. Sadly, as luck would have it, we have a cyclone off the east coast threatening huge 3-6 metre swells, even tho far enough away for it's winds not to affect us much, but it's making the surfies happy. However, on top of that, they are predicting southerly buster type winds coming up from Tasmania, which is gong to make life interesting for the annual epic Sydney Hobart Yacht race. So when you add that into the mix, we will probably be wise to abandon the plan - something all seaman should of course do if conditions are adverse and one can change plans. Your 900 miler is one where you cannot, so good fortune go with you.

PS.* And yes - we even got an EPIRB too, bit I guess it's good to have even for round the Bay, and maybe one day.....


-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 23rd of December 2011 04:51:54 AM

I will say only this: This forum does have it's moments as we disagree about many of the points Walt points out, but we all respect each other FAR more than other topic-specific forums I frequent (OTDE not withstanding). Generally, we understand that there will always be differences in opinions and that we can indeed, all be right ;-) We are all in this together. We all want to be as smart as we can about decisions we all face and this is, by far, the best place to get the information we need to make the right decision for us. i, for one, have benefited greatly from this forum and the relationships we have here and can't imagine NOT having The Trawler Forum to read. I can't imagine anyone being driven off by our minor disagreements. (assuming the stay out of OTDE)

Tom-


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Friday 23rd of December 2011 06:12:25 AM

When you get "boat, trawler, fever" I think most people will follow through regardless of what they read. I read the Grand Banks forum for years before buying a trawler, there was lots of disussion on problems and problem solving there, as on most owners forums, it didn't deter me.
Steve W.

Having described what I feel is the negative aspect of boating forums for newcomers to boating or people contemplating getting into boating, I do feel forums like this have some very positive value. Similar to going to college, these forums teach a person how to learn. While I have never had a specific problem solved by anyone on forums like TF what I have gotten are ideas and suggestions of things I want to find out more about.

A make-specific forum is a different. I have gotten a lot from the GB owners forum because there are participants on that forum who are shipwrights or who who have owned boatyards that specialized in the maintenance, repair, and upgrading of wood and glass GBs as well as a few people who have rebuilt GBs almost literally from the keel up including completely tearing down and rebuilding the FL120 that was in it. Those guys are a wealth of information in the same way that the shipwrights and mechanics we know personally in our local yard and diesel shop are a wealth of information.

But TF can offer valuable guidance as to what direction to go for the information one seeks. I think the newbies or wannabes that have written their basic "what should I get, what should I do" queries to TF have, for the most part, gotten valuable answers, particularly from those people who offer guidance on how to approach the whole boat-acquisition process and define what sort of questions the newbie should be asking and answering themselves to help them determine the best course of action.* To that end, I think TF can play a very helpful role.

For whatever reason, I don't see the other "general" boating forums I have either participated in or looked at working quite as well in this respect as TF does.* T&T comes close but without the abilityt to post photos (which I feel is a very imporant aspect of being able to provide useful information) and with a very user-unfriendly search function, T&T doesn't have the in-depth capabilities of TF.

Of course a forum is no better than its participants.* The administrators of TF do a great job, I think, of allowing a lot of freedom while preventing things from getting out of hand.* People like RickB, Tom (sunchaser), Carl (Delfin), Eric, Walt, Don (Moonstruck), PeterB, Dave Hawkins--- and there are others whose names don't readily come to mind--- have more experience than most of us can ever hope to even approach.* And some of them-- RickB in particular--- are actually actively employed in the marine industry in capacities that expose them on a daily basis to all sorts of boating topics from propulsion to boat systems.

I guess the issue I have with regards to Walt's original question is that newbies and wannabies can be easily overwhelmed by the information that can be fireshosed at them in response to an initial question.* Sort of like a college freshman showing up on Day One and being handed a schedule consisting entirely of post-graduate courses.

It's on the active TF participants, I think, to make sure people expressing an interest in boating are not driven away by too much information and a lot of conflicting "you should do this" advice.

And, I have learned from TF where to find all kinds of information about RV's. I have leaned enough about them in the last month to decide that I want another boat now and maybe, sorta, perhaps, an RV in the future.

Thanks Larry and Everyone else that replied. *Now for the reality check of boating. *I just got email from Marina in Boca's (only game in town) and fuel is $4.45 a gal and I have to take on 1100 gallons but I get a nickel off whoohoo!!! *I wonder what fuel cost is in Rio Dulce? *The price of an adventure surely is soaring ! *BOATT (break out another Ten Thousand)

Like a lot of people on this forum, I became interested in boats long before there was an internet. I bought some cruising guides, local charts and took a Coast Guard course. I made a lot of mistakes along the way (like most people). I would have made a lot fewer if I had access to a forum like this. I think it's great and extremely helpful.

John
390 Mainship

I may be one of the few here that never wanted to have a boat. Being a Baltimoron, most of my friends had boats and all I did with them was work on their boats. Then came my Admiral into my life about 6 yeas ago while living in Santo Domingo, Dom. Rep.. We moved to Miami and she says: "Are we going to do the Miami thing or not", (meaning are we going to do the Boat thing or not). I said "No way". Our first boat together was a 24 ft. Bayliner Cabin Cruiser. Not our kind of cruising.

Three years in Berlin gave me a chance to study hull design, the Architects, and follow the market closely. We rented 43 ft. diesel trawlers and cruised through the 400 or so miles of connected lakes, rivers and canals of the old GDR (East Germany). We loved it. The first boat I "accepted" as a practical design was over a million dollars to build. The next year found me at about a half-million, the next year at 250 to 300K, and by the time we were headed back to the US, we were searching the world for one particular boat, and we got it for under 150K. All of this was due to the unbridled opinions and reasoning of forum members with the knowledge and experience gained from owning, cruising and/or living aboard boats. Early fantasies got my ass kicked and my tree chopped down so many times that it finally drove me to sensibility. People who seek solid advice (rather than validation of opinion) will likely be the least deluded, and therefore the most successful boaters. (Do you know of anyone more miserable than a deluded boat owner?) When it comes to learning about boats and systems, a healthy combination of humility and curiosity is sure a lot cheaper than the alternative. I hope the forum keeps right on doing what it does the way it does it. The rare, so-called "spitting contest" is unimportant if it remains rare, and it seems that the monitors here do a quality job of objective impartiality.