USPS Course Advice, Please

charles wrote:

More, the ease and safety of adjusting the lines during the night. That is all, if one really wants to get off of one's boat in a storm to get to the line on the dock so be it, just not me.

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Almost without exception everyone here from rowboat people on up moors to floating docks. The huge tidal range precludes the of fixed piers except for ships.* We have never experienced any need to adjust lines once they are secured to the dock--- the dock and the boat maintain the same relationship from then on.

Here in central California, we have tides up to*7 feet.** Small boat docks are all floating here.* For me, it's most convenient*with the bitter end tied to the dock.* Here at KKMI in Pt. Richmond (Santa Fe Channel) as well as home berth in Vallejo:

This is what Chapman has to say: "Dock lines frequently have en eye splice in one end but not the other.* You must decide whether to use the end with a loop on shore or on the boat.* If you are going to be on board, it is better to retain the plain end on board.* This means that you can make adjustments without getting off the boat.* If there will be no one on the boats, use the end with the eye on board; the plain end ashore will allow adjustment without the necessity of boarding."

Nevertheless, with floating docks there is usually no need to make adjustments once the lines have been initially*set to one's satisfaction.

Large boats and ships use their winches/windlasses to adjust their dock lines, so obviously they have to have the non-looped, loose end onboard.

So now we see why USPS courses are snoozers. If the subject thread were how to tie your vessel up to a dock then we'd be right on track by saying "many different ways can be utililzed so long as it is safe and secure for the crew and vessel." Or something like that.

Right now I am on our vessel which is securely affixed to the*docks at Roche Harbor. I type while my wife is Christmas shopping. Martini time beckons. Not once did this thread cause me to redo my dock lines!

charles wrote:
Marin, You are doing exactly what you accused me of. I said, in my article, again in my article, PNW excepted. Now you tell us abt the floating docks out there. I am talking about FIXED DOCKS and quays and pilings and the like.

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*That's fine but unless I missed it--- and I may have although I*read your quoted article section*twice--- you never confine your comments to fixed docks specifically but imply that yours is the method that should be used on all docks period.* At least that's the way that I and several others interpreted it.* You talk about pilings and*cleats.* Well, we have pilings and cleats out here, too.** If you mean only*fixed docks, then say so at the outset.* Saves misinterpretation and attempts--- mental or otherwise--- to conform a process to a situation that's not suited for it.

*

Wizard, you have heard my opinion as well as others. *My suggestion is not take anyone's advice, but see for yourself. *Ask to check out the course material. *If it is possible, ask to check out the Advanced Piloting materials. *there are a couple of prerequisites for taking that level, but taking a look will let you know what is in store.

Kudos to you for wanting to learn the proper ways. *No matter what courses you take, you will adapt to what works best for you. *Good luck on your quest.

charles wrote:
1. I have been on a boat out there several times and saw how people JUMP OFF OF THE BOAT WHILE IT IS STILL MOVING. Even saw some have their GUESTS do that.

2. Speaking of the Great Circle Cruise, we were tied to a concrete wall higher than the bow of my boat....OK lets cut to the chase, what would you have done in my case?

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*1.* What's the big deal about that?* I see people jump from boats to*docks all the time and so far have never seen anyone get hurt.* Actually*most people don't jump, they step although on some boats it can be a long step down.* It's the ONLY way to*get onto a dock to pull a moving*floatplane to a stop and a zillion floatplane drivers do this daily without incident.* I've been stepping-- and occasionally jumping--*to*docks*to drag*a two and a half ton*floatplane to a stop since about 1980 and have never had a problem.

And since you seem to*have some abhorrance about the practice, if you really want to give yourself nighmares, watch a floatplane depart a dock sometime.* In most cases the plane is turned out 90 degrees from the dock and then the pilot not only*JUMPS*from the dock to the much lower*rear of the float but he*then RUNS up the narrow*float deck both to avoid*getting *his feet wet as his weight drives*the rear of the float underwater*as well as*to scramble up some thin aluminum bars into the cockpit as fast as possible*to get the engine started before the plane drifts or is blown into something expensive.

On the rare occasions we have guests on our boat we have*one of them perform the step-to-the-dock-with-the-line maneuver every time because the husband can usually do it faster and easier than* my wife who is rather short.* Sometimes the boat will still be moving very slowly when they do this,*depending on the wind and how fast we*need to get a line secured to the rail.* We make sure they know what to do when they get to the dock with the line, and in years of doing this nobody has ever experienced a problem.

I agree the potential of injury*is there with either the boat or the plane*but*the same potential for injury*exists crossing a street or climbing a ladder.***If one is not capable of doing it than one ought to not do it.

2.* In the case you describe, you were tied to a fixed dock, or wall in this case, that was a long ways above the boat.* So common sense would seem to indicate that the smartest move was to secure the lines in such a way that they could be adjusted from the boat since you couldn't get off the boat, safely or at all.

That's the thing about boating.* There is generally no "always do it this way" way.* I think 90 percent of boating is simply common sense.* In your area it apparently makes sense to put the loop ashore and the bitter end on board.* Out here it makes more sense to keep the loop aboard-- or if there isn't any loop keep one end of the line cleated to the boat---*and put the bitter end ashore.* Your system wouldn't work here because you'd still have to get the line to the dock to pass it around the bullrail.* Which means you or someone on board has to step or jump to the dock or there needs to be someone on the dock to take at least your first line and pass it around the bullrail and get it back to you.

In China where I observed crews securing coastal freighters*ranging from 60 to 120 feet long or so*to docks and piers, if the dock was low somebody jumped--- usually literally with the boat still moving and several feet out--- to the dock with a line and made it fast or put it around a bollard and then either jumped back aboard with the bitter end or tossed it to someone on board.* If the dock or pier was higher than the boat a crewman woud jump or scramble--- sometimes from the top of the pilothouse--- to the dock.* Some docks and piers had ladders inset into them at intervals for this purpose.* In one case I watched were the pier was too high to scramble onto from the boat and there was no convenient*inset ladder the boat*was brought up against the pier and a crude ladder was leaned out from the deck to the pier and a crewman scrambled up to secure the line.* In all cases, the mooring lines, fore, aft, and midships, were permanently spliced to--- not looped around--- fittings on deck.

This obviously works well for them as dangerous as it may seem to us.* I suspect they would*find your description of placing a loop of line over a piling or cleat from the boat*quite funny

As a point of interest the canal boats in the UK*also*have their mooring lines permanently spliced to rings on the boat.* The lines are taken ashore--- sometimes jumping over several feet of water is the only way to do it--- a heavy iron stake is pounded into the bank with a lump hammer (short-handled sledge hammer), the line passed around the stake and then tossed or taken back to the boat.

So lots of ways to do things, no single one is right for all occasions or locations.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 19th of December 2011 08:09:19 PM

We have a very firm "no leaping" rule.* Its the skipper's job to bring the boat to a halt next to the dock.* If the line handler doesn't feel secure stepping to the dock she says so and I adjust.* Absolutely no leaping under any circumstances.

*

bobofthenorth wrote:
We have a very firm "no leaping" rule.* Its the skipper's job to bring the boat to a halt next to the dock.* If the line handler doesn't feel secure stepping to the dock she says so and I adjust.* Absolutely no leaping under any circumstances.

*

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*That is a very good rule. *My instructions are that no one leaves the boat until I direct them. *Also, it is emphasized that they never get any part of their bodies between the boat and an object. *A 32,000# boat with momentum can cause serious injury. *If I can't get the boat to the dock or piling, we don't need to be there.

Speaking as a Past Commander of the Fox Valley Power Squadron in NW suburban Chicago, I think several things need to be mentioned.

1) The variability of instructor quality is definitely the Achille's heel for both USPS and USCGAux. I also used to teach Red Cross classes, same problem. Still, thank God for folks who will make a commitment and volunteer time to help others. But when you get a good instructor - it's golden. I used to love teaching about charts and aids to navigation in the ABC class to folks who never thought they needed to "waste their time with that junk". Then I'd see one spouse elbow the other when they realized what all those funny-looking red and green things were that they'd seen on a trip to Florida. You could see the light bulb flash over there head as they realized the potential to expand their boating horizons. Totally cool.

2) The other thing that the USPS course sequence offers is camaraderie. While you'd miss this with the online approach, it's quite common to see familiar faces as you proceed through Seamanship, Piloting and Advanced Piloting. Often classmates have very different boating styles and plans. But you learn by hearing the other guy's point of view (even if you never plan to trailer, etc.). Especially during long, cold Chicago winters, it was nice to look forward to being with like-minded souls for the weekly class.

3) As a motorcyclist as well as a boater, I think it's critical to avoid thinking "been there, done that". When you re-study basic, introductory material as someone with experience, you hear with different ears and learn with a different mind - if you come in with an open mind. Safety is never learned, but always in a state of practice, practice, practice.

4) When I took the 100 ton master's class, all my USPS learning gave me a solid well-rounded foundation.

My 2 cents.

Jeff Wolf
Vagabond
Pilgrim 40 Trawler
Currently in Thunderbolt, GA

Wolfie,

I was wondering if anyone was going to mention camaraderie. You meet and get acquainted w quite a few people interested in what you're interested in. Kinda like Trawler Forum.

Eric

Wow, that was quite a read.* For me, the bottom line is that you will learn that there are several different ways to do anything.* Picking the one that's right for your particular situation at that moment will depend on your past experience.* How you get that experience will also color your decisions.* Getting the broadest range of experience gives you the ability to make the most informed decisions. Come on up to Alaska, and let me show you how we do it up here.* I'm certain that if you can do it safely in Alaska, you can do it almost anywhere...........Arctic Traveller

By the way, as a professional mariner running boats in Alaska for a large part of my life, I prefer to leave the eye splice on the boat, run the bitter end under the bull rail, and then back to the cleat.* That way, we can depart the dock when the winds screaming and the current is running without getting off the boat.* Just make sure you run the bitter end UNDER the bullrail, or you will have problems pulling it back aboard, but that's just my opinion based on what works for me, your experiences may dictate differently*

*

Trawler Training and charters at www.arctictraveller.com

Arctic Traveller wrote:
Just make sure you run the bitter end UNDER the bullrail, or you will have problems pulling it back aboard

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Yep.

Marin wrote:Arctic Traveller wrote:
Just make sure you run the bitter end UNDER the bullrail, or you will have problems pulling it back aboard

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Yep.

*I'll try to remember that.* Regarding dock lines, the USPS basic course I attended to only discussed how to tie to a cleat.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 01:02:50 AM

Wolfie,

As a 30+ year member of USPS, I can verify what you said. *You can make lasting friends in that organization. *Like any organizaton, get active, and you will get to know people. *Just go to an occasional meeting, and it would be very hard to really get to know anyone or them you.

By the way, on Nov 5 would you have been cruising between Thunderbolt and Jekyll.? I think we passed you somewhere down that way.


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 06:56:59 AM

The discussion between Marin and Charles puts me in mind of changes that I have observed in the docking procedures of the BC Ferries, over the past 35 yrs. In that time, there have been some docking incidents that have prompted the BC Workers Comp branch, now know as "Worksafe BC" to enact restrictive regulations and BC Ferries to institute SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) that now resemble Charles article, as Marin interprets it, in that there is now only one way to bring the boat to the dock, only one way to tie the boat up, only one sequence of procedures that will result in the gates being opened so that unloading or loading may occur.

Any first time observer will note that this all takes a lot of time, but is very safe. To do it any other way, would be much quicker, and more efficient, in both manpower and fuel consumption, but would violate the SOP and, in extreme weather, might be unsafe. In good weather, it all seems to be inefficient and violates "Common Sense". In this day and age, when the worker today is not the same guy as was doing that job yesterday, unless you know the SOP, you don't get to do the job. If you wish to use Common Sense, rather than follow the SOP, you are a rebel and should look for work elsewhere.

koliver wrote:
*it all seems to be inefficient and violates "Common Sense".

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Yes, our politically correct "feel good" nanny state will eventually bring progress to a halt. At which point the people with common sense (if there are any left) will move in, relegate the paralyzed nanny-state crowd to the poorhouse, and rule the world again.

koliver wrote:*If you wish to use Common Sense, rather than follow the SOP, you are a rebel and should look for work elsewhere.

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Standardization is why there has not been a repeat of the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster and one of the reasons*why airline flying is almost twice as safe as it was just 10 years ago.

*

Rick:
I don't disagree with you. I just lament the lack of sufficient SOPs to include some "common Sense" procedures for when the conditions warrant some relaxation. We may eventually get there, but are plainly not close just yet.

RickB wrote:Standardization is why there has not been a repeat of the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster and one of the reasons*why airline flying is almost twice as safe as it was just 10 years ago.

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*

Common sense does not automatically oppose standardization. *Where it makes sense to use standarized operating procedures--- as in flying for example--- they should be used and common sense recognizes the advantages of doing so.

My objection is to the "standardization" of virtually everything, often at the expense of efficiency and productivity. *This sheep-like devotion to "processes" is the fundamental reason the 787 is 3-1/2 years late.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 01:21:23 PM

Marin wrote:
Common sense does not automatically oppose standardization. *Where it makes sense to use standarized operating procedures--- as in flying for example--- they should be used and common sense recognizes the advantages of doing so.

This sheep-like devotion to "processes" is the fundamental reason the 787 is 3-1/2 years late.

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You got it. Good standards incorporate "common sense" and do not replace it.

Relying on "common sense" alone has always been shown to lead to disaster because it is not as common as some would like to believe.

The premise of the recent posts seems to be that SOP* has replaced common sense in the BC Ferry system. If it has and safety has improved then it is hard to say that much aside from a few bruised egos *has been lost.

As a 20+ year USCG helo pilot with LOTs of shipboard experience, I can honestly say SOPs save a lot of lives, prevent injuries and protect property.

On the other hand SOPs are for a certain set of circumstances...once the equation changes...SOPs go out the window and only a HUGE amount of common sense and experience can make the outcome favorable...well luck can certainly have its part too.

Listening to people argue over where the "eye" end goes makes me laugh.* Most of the boats I have worked on don't even have loops in many of their lines.* The only reason to have a loop/spliced eye*in a line is if it's too large for a person or two to create one quickly*or if you are dealing with people who can't tie bowlines/clove hitches, or a cleat hitch*in a snap.*



-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 05:48:30 PM


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 05:48:47 PM

psneeld wrote:
As a 20+ year USCG helo pilot with LOTs of shipboard experience, I can honestly say SOPs save a lot of lives, prevent injuries and protect property.

On the other hand SOPs are for a certain set of circumstances...once the equation changes...SOPs go out the window and only a HUGE amount of common sense and experience can make the outcome favorable...well luck can certainly have its part too.

Listening to people argue over where the "eye" end goes makes me laugh.* Most of the boats I have worked on don't even have loops in many of their lines.* The only reason to have a loop/spliced eye*in a line is if it's too large for a person or two to create one quickly*or if you are dealing with people who can't tie bowlines/clove hitches, or a cleat hitch*in a snap.*

*

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*My 4 dock lines have no permanent eyes spliced in. *There are a couple of reasons that I went to this system. *One is that if in a slip only a few nights (talking fixed docks with pilings) the bitterend will be secured to the boat. *The line will be taken to the piling with one turn. *The free end is led back to the boat and secured. *It makes it easy to get in the lines when leaving. *The second reason is that the line can be adjusted at either end if on a cleat at the dock. *Third is that you can always make a loop with a bowline when needed.

I do use a spliced in eye on the 4 sprng lines. *The eye is of both fore and aft spring lines is on the midship cleat. *Because the lines lead through a fair lead that makes them a little cumbersone to cleat off> *The four lines are coiled and hung on the rails to always be ready> *Usually a spring line is the first ashore*

Don, you must have seen my evil twin. On Nov. 5 Vagabond was on the hard at Thunderbolt Marine - almost 4 months of drying after a bottom peel. I was back in Chicago to sell my house (and get rid of waaaayyy too much junk) from late August to mid-November.

As an aside, Thunderbolt Marine is the old Palmer Johnson yard. Pretty funky being the pipsqueak amongst the megayachts. I saw a 187' power yacht get launched and a 112' sailboat's masts stepped. Also got invited to a BBQ at a 130' powerboat and for cocktails on an 80' sailboat. Damn, those professional yachts crews (with their professional chefs) eat good! I think there's only one other owner-operated boat here. But they were hungry for business in this economy and gave a nice discount off their labor rates for first class work.

Heading out after Christmas. I'll fondly remember hanging with the upper crust, but I know where I really belong.

Wolfie wrote:
Don, you must have seen my evil twin. On Nov. 5 Vagabond was on the hard at Thunderbolt Marine - almost 4 months of drying after a bottom peel. I was back in Chicago to sell my house (and get rid of waaaayyy too much junk) from late August to mid-November.

As an aside, Thunderbolt Marine is the old Palmer Johnson yard. Pretty funky being the pipsqueak amongst the megayachts. I saw a 187' power yacht get launched and a 112' sailboat's masts stepped. Also got invited to a BBQ at a 130' powerboat and for cocktails on an 80' sailboat. Damn, those professional yachts crews (with their professional chefs) eat good! I think there's only one other owner-operated boat here. But they were hungry for business in this economy and gave a nice discount off their labor rates for first class work.

Heading out after Christmas. I'll fondly remember hanging with the upper crust, but I know where I really belong.

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*Jeff, I have been in Thunderbolt many times. *Tubby's Tank House is one of our favorites. *We stopped at Thunderolt Marina to pick up 100 gal. of fuel on Nov. 5. *It is always loaded with mega yachts. *Let me know if you are headed south. *Ft. Pierce City Marina is a great stop. *Also there is a protected anchorage on the other side of the river.

Doesn't Thunderbolt GA claim to be the home of the KKK?

FF wrote:
Doesn't Thunderbolt GA claim to be the home of the KKK?

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*Thunderbolt may claim it, but it was formed in Pulaski, TN. *Nathan Bedford Forrest (with 2 r's) was one of the first leaders.