Black water discharge

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friz

friz

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
279
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Chez Reagan
Vessel Make
Cargile Cutter
I was speaking with broker at Pop Yachts today about a boat. 48' boat with a Lehman 135. When I asked him about holding tank capacity he replied there is not a holding tank but it has a mascerator which enables/allows you to pump overboard as needed - like everytime you sit on the head (men). I did not press the broker but he felt that it was legal. Am I daft? I understood that no discharge meant no discharge no matter what you did to the sewage. If it is relavent, the boat is in South Carolina.
 
Not legal. It doesn’t have a holding tank? Never heard of a boat that size without a holding tank.

While we are at it, 1 Lehman engine 135? Way underpowered.
 
My guess is that it is an older boat. Many older boats were built without a holding tank and always were direct discharge. A couple of my folks older sailboats were this way.



The boat would not be legal in any US coastal waters that I'm aware of. You would need to add a holding tank. That may not be a big problem if there is a good place for it, but if not, it can get complicated and often it is hard to find sufficient space for a holding tank of sufficient size to be useful.


As for being underpowered, that all depends on the type of boat and its use.
 
Gotta be 3 miles out to discharge. Special restrictions in some areas.
 
He may mean that the boat has a treatment system like a Raritan Lectra San. In some areas you can discharge treated sewage near shore.

The broker sounds like he doesn’t know much about boats. I used to tease the brokers I knew by saying they were just used car salesmen in Topsiders.
 
Thinking along the lines of Hopcar.... Might have meant legal discharge from a Type I MSD....

But before buying the boat figure out how to get a holding tank on board also.
 
I have a 40 gallon holding but no pump out on the deck, all my holdings go overboard, usually I’m 30-40 miles out
 
You could always swap out the regular toilet for a composting toilet. Easier than installing a holding tank, less complicated, no smell.
 
friz said:
I was speaking with broker at Pop Yachts today about a boat. 48' boat with a Lehman 135. When I asked him about holding tank capacity he replied there is not a holding tank but it has a mascerator which enables/allows you to pump overboard as needed - like everytime you sit on the head (men). I did not press the broker but he felt that it was legal. Am I daft? I understood that no discharge meant no discharge no matter what you did to the sewage. If it is relavent, the boat is in South Carolina.
Click to expand...

You aren't daft, but someone needs to acquaint that broker ith US marine sanitation laws! It's illegal discharge raw waste directly from the toilet or dump a holding tank in any US waters. To do either you must be in open ocean at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US coastline.

However, in most coastal waters including SC's coastal water and most of the rest of the East coast south of New England, the discharge of TREATED waste from a USCG certified Type I or Type II MSD (treatment device) IS legal. Macerator pumps are not USCG certified MSDs (treatment devices).

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
 
Wow should be nice when at the dock and having a quick need in the middle of the night, pretty sure your dock neighborhood would like to smell what you eat the evening before :)
L
 
Two different issues here.


First - there are areas within coastal regions where discharge of black water is illegal.


Previous poster said it best - "no means no"


You can venture into offshore waters where discharge of Black Water is legal - but that brings us to the second issue.


Personal situation, given the layout of the two holding tanks on my boat - the pump out runs through lines that are horizontal. Previous owner clued me in - if I chose to pump out - I will have lines that don't clear in the process.


So, even if I am in a situation where I could pump out overboard, discharge blackwater - I prefer not to.
 
"The broker sounds like he doesn’t know much about boats"


Whats new?
 
Thanks for all the replies. Now the rest of the story. The boat is a 1993 48' Holiday Mansion Coastal Commander. Yeah, I know it is not a trawler. I would think though that a boat/houseboat of that size, built in 1993 would have a holding tank. My 1971 has a holding tank. Actually it did until I removed it and installed a C-Head. So, I suspect a holding tank has been removed. As far as the engine goes when I read diesel, 135 HP Lehman I thought the owner had removed the original gassers and replaced them with diesels. Now that got my attention. He had in fact removed the gassers and replaced them with a single diesel. A 3 belt pulley system drives each outdrive transmission! I agree the boat is woefully under powered. But the owner also refines his own waste vegetable oil for fuel. So I am not any longer interested in the boat but the broker's statement about sewage discharge piqued my interest. I thought I would ask the question here. Oh. by the way, the broker although pleasant and helpful supplied to many answers prefaced with "I believe", "oh about" etc. When I responded to the Ad I asked to communicate with the owner. I guess protecting his commission was more important.
 
The broker knows better.

No black water tank? Walk away.
 
HeadMistress said:
You aren't daft, but someone needs to acquaint that broker ith US marine sanitation laws! It's illegal discharge raw waste directly from the toilet or dump a holding tank in any US waters. To do either you must be in open ocean at least 3 miles from the nearest point on the whole US coastline.

However, in most coastal waters including SC's coastal water and most of the rest of the East coast south of New England, the discharge of TREATED waste from a USCG certified Type I or Type II MSD (treatment device) IS legal. Macerator pumps are not USCG certified MSDs (treatment devices).

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Click to expand...

Thanks Peggie. The broker did say "macerator". Although I have heard of treated sewage systems I know nothing about them. Does a treatment device require a holding tank of any sort? Also when you say "coastal waters' does that mean I can pump treated sewage overboard tied up at my marina in St. Augustine (or anywhere coastal)? Yuk! Doesn't sound very appealing.
 
Although I have heard of treated sewage systems I know nothing about them. Does a treatment device require a holding tank of any sort?

It depends on the type of system. The most popular treatment devices--the Raritan ElectroScan ElectroScan promo sheet and PuraSan Raritan PuraSan Promo Sheet do not.

Also when you say "coastal waters' does that mean I can pump treated sewage overboard tied up at my marina in St. Augustine (or anywhere coastal)? Yuk! Doesn't sound very appealing.

Each flush, even solid waste, is so diluted and rendered odorless by treatment that, unless the toilet discharge thru-hull is above the waterline, it's totally unnoticeable. Bacteria count has also been reduced to <10/100 ml....federal water quality standards for swimming allow up to 200/100ml.

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
 
I have 3 macerators, and YES it is legal to dump directly overboard, no black water holding tank needed, but you see not enough information is being given, like the word 'Lecrasan.'

I had a courtesy USCG inspection done, the inspector noted it had a macerator and was legal, the macerator he just equated with the Lectrasan, which has 2 macerators inside.

My third macerator is in the head itself.

I mean if you can't get the terms right, people are going to ge confused!
As bad as speaking broken english.
 
Last edited:
Are you saying you dump with just using macerators and no type I of type II MSD? Or are you saying YOUR Lectrasan has 2 macerators and the toilet makes 3?

The Electroscams have one chopper blade on one side and one stirring padfle on the other.
 
Last edited:
sdowney717 said:
I have 3 macerators, and YES it is legal to dump directly overboard, no black water holding tank needed, but you see not enough information is being given, like the word 'Lecrasan.'

I had a courtesy USCG inspection done, the inspector noted it had a macerator and was legal, the macerator he just equated with the Lectrasan, which has 2 macerators inside. My third macerator is in the head itself.
I mean if you can't get the terms right, people are going to ge confused!
As bad as speaking broken english.
Click to expand...

That inspector doesn't seem to be any more familiar with the correct terminology than the broker was!

To anyone familiar with correct terminology, the term "macerator" (short for "macerator pump") refers to a separate freestanding PUMP that has a macerator blade in it, commonly used to dump a holding tank. No one would call a macerating electric toilet just a "macerator"...nor would anyone refer to a treatment device as just a "macerator" (or a pair of them). You're quite right that doing so would not only be confusing, but totally misleading.

So what you really have is a macerating electric toilet and a Type I treatment device, which is entirely legal in all waters not specifically designated to be a "no discharge" zone (NDZ).

And btw, if you check the exploded drawings and parts lists for the ElectroScan ElectroScan owners manual and PuraSan Raritan PuraSan EX owners manual , I think you'll find that both only have ONE macerator blade, that you're mistaking the mixer impeller for a second one.


--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
 
Last edited:
Here's the "poop" on MSD's:

Type I Flow-through treatment devices that commonly use maceration and disinfection for the treatment of sewage May be installed only on vessels less than or equal to 65 feet in length
Must produce an effluent with:

No visible floating solids
A fecal coliform bacterial count not greater than 1000 per 100 milliliters

Type II Flow-through treatment devices that may employ biological treatment and disinfection (some Type II MSDs may use maceration and disinfection) May be installed on vessels of any length
Must produce an effluent with:

A fecal coliform bacterial count not greater than 200 per 100 milliliters
No more than 150 milligrams of total suspended solids per liter

Type III Typically a holding tank where sewage is stored until it can be discharged shore-side or at sea (beyond three miles from shore) May be installed on vessels of any length No performance standard; must "be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage." 33 CFR 159.53(c) (PDF)(2 pp, 163 K)).
 
Pop Yachts brokers are really not brokers to begin with. They are salemen off the street with no or little knowledge of boats. I had one of POP Yacht "brokers" try selling my boat and the guy never even looked inside of the boat. How the heck can you sell something you never even seen completely?
I would never trust a POP broker.
 
Code:
kenk said:
Pop Yachts brokers are really not brokers to begin with. They are salemen off the street with no or little knowledge of boats. I had one of POP Yacht "brokers" try selling my boat and the guy never even looked inside of the boat. How the heck can you sell something you never even seen completely?
I would never trust a POP broker.
Click to expand...


I got the same impression of the "broker". I have moved on.
 
Type III Typically a holding tank....
...But is any device intended to receive and retain, but not discharge, human body waste and the waste from toilets. That includes not only holding tanks, but portapotties, composters and even a bucket...which makes "bucket and chuck it" as illegal as dumping a holding tank inside the 3 mile limit.

Although US marine sanitation law only requires a Type I treatment device to reduce bacteria count to max of 1,000/100ml, the Raritan LectraSan, ElectroScan and PuraSan reduce it to <10/100 milileter. The Groco ThermoPure, which uses heat (and requires 115v/AC power) reduces it to -0-.

Type II MSDs only use bio-active products to assist maceration in breaking down and liquifying solid waste and TP, but disinfection requires chemicals (typically chlorine).

Although Type II is allowed on vessels of any length, it's the only choice for any vessel 66'+. Type IIs are so much bigger, more complex and more expensive than any Type I that few people would even consider a Type II for any boat smaller than that (although I've run into a few who have).

--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
 
dhays said:
As for being underpowered, that all depends on the type of boat and its use.
Click to expand...
Exactly. 135 hp is PLENTY to push most any 48' boat to hull speed. If you want to go faster (and use a lot more fuel in the process) then you need more horsepower. But for hull speed cruising -- more than enough.
 
HeadMistress said:
That inspector doesn't seem to be any more familiar with the correct terminology than the broker was!

To anyone familiar with correct terminology, the term "macerator" (short for "macerator pump") refers to a separate freestanding PUMP that has a macerator blade in it, commonly used to dump a holding tank. No one would call a macerating electric toilet just a "macerator"...nor would anyone refer to a treatment device as just a "macerator" (or a pair of them). You're quite right that doing so would not only be confusing, but totally misleading.

So what you really have is a macerating electric toilet and a Type I treatment device, which is entirely legal in all waters not specifically designated to be a "no discharge" zone (NDZ).

And btw, if you check the exploded drawings and parts lists for the ElectroScan ElectroScan owners manual and PuraSan Raritan PuraSan EX owners manual , I think you'll find that both only have ONE macerator blade, that you're mistaking the mixer impeller for a second one.


--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Click to expand...

I am so glad you are here to explain these things, Peggy! There are still a lot of people (boaters AND brokers...) that don't understand the differences in marine sanitation systems, let alone know the laws governing onboard sewage in their own areas!
 
Thank you for the kind words. And fwiw (stand by for shameless plug), everything I wrote that you quoted--and whole lot more useful info--is in my book.



--Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
 
The Florida Keys are a No discharge Zone. No treated sewage can be dumped overboard.
 
Hi All
Interesting reads on internet about said brokerage. I had researched them after hearing other stories in the past. Always good idea to pop (lol) into the internet and and research who you are doing business with.
 
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