Propane storage on Taiwan builds

Propane storage is an issue on any boat however a great number of Taiwan builds came with the propane storage on the fly bridge in the eye brow.

I badly want to get our propane properly stored on our Sealord 35 (which is identical to the Oceania 35) and am looking to see what others have done on their Taiwan boats.

My initial idea was to simply build a sealed, vented locker inside the eyebrow however all approved storage lockers are top loading and the height available just isn't there for that.

I have a fabric cover over mine and have it secured near the aft rail on the flybridge.

I have a self survey coming up, we will see if they like that......the survey specifically asks if it is under the flybridge fairing.....leading me to believe it's a no-no.

My boat has a sealed and properly vented compartment on one side under the brow. The only requirement it doesn't meet is the relatively new one that says it must be top loading. This I can live with and indeed my setup is perfectly "legal" in my older boat.

Ken

That's what I was thinking. Build a locker inside the eyebrow until I saw the top load requirement to meet full standards.

ksceviour said:

That's what I was thinking. Build a locker inside the eyebrow until I saw the top load requirement to meet full standards.

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Can you hinge the locker so you can tilt it to load, unload, and check/ do maintenance?

Have a lock down on the far side....

How about ..... Safe Propane Installations to ABYC Standards

boatpoker said:

How about ..... Safe Propane Installations to ABYC Standards

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Yeah read that site. Unless I start from scratch and relocate the system I'm stuck with a locker 'inside' the eyebrow which should be better than no locker.

Plenty of room on the sun deck but I hate the thought of rerouting the entire system.

Only thing you should take great care about is the path of propane in case of a leak. It should go overboard without any chance to get into the boat. Think of it as water, in case of a leak is there any chance it could get onboard? Is there any opening?
As an example, my tanks are on the aft deck, under a bench. In case of a leak only path is aft where there is no opening.

L

Lou_tribal said:

Only thing you should take great care about is the path of propane in case of a leak.

L

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The standards require the overboard vent be at least 24" from any opening into the boat so that's another complication for locker location. I think every Taiwan built boat was delivered with the tanks in the same place.

ksceviour said:

The standards require the overboard vent be at least 24" from any opening into the boat so that's another complication for locker location. I think every Taiwan built boat was delivered with the tanks in the same place.

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It is (almost) impossible to find a spot for a locker with a drain hose overboard below the gunnel on a double cabin trawler without running the drain line back inside or crossing a deck as a trip hazard.

So I opt for open air storage on the bridge and at least 24 inches from an opening window.

It may be flagged by some overzealous surveyor. However, after discussing it here and having ABYC guys cite that there are allowances for less than perfect systems on older boats as long as the spirit is met and is less dangerous than trying to make it "perfect", I am satisfied it is safe enough.

Mine is still on the bridge under the brow. Been thru 2 surveys and it was never a problem.
One of my flybridge seats was designed to be a cooler with an overboard drain and that is where I store the small canisters for the gas grill.

Mine's in a cabinet on the aft cockpit... right next to the electric grill.

Can someone explain the need for top loading only? I am planning a side-loading gasketed door for my new construction. I still need to check what the classification rules say because I'm not planning on ABYC.

Edit: I checked CCS and all it says is "6.3.1.6 The sealed protective box is to seal the opening of gas tank and its accessories reliably and vent pipe is to be provided to lead the leakage gases to safe spaces outboard." Nothing about top loading.

I believe the top loading is so when you open the door the propane that may be in the locker will not run out. Propane is heavier than air so with the top loading the propane will remain in the locker and run out through the discharge tube as designed.

Top loading sealed compartment with a drain below the gunnel is ABYC’s way of idiot proofing propane (I am not knocking ABYC). Is it unreasonable to have a side loading gasket sealed locker that also uses a sniffer and an automatic shut off valve? No it is not. Why can’t ABYC allow for this? Cause your battery might go dead and then you would have inadequate protection. Are you willing to play the odds (and they are very small odds) that you will suffer a propane leak on the same day your battery goes dead? I have 1400 amp hrs of battery so i’m Willing to take those odds.

Plan A;

I've been sizing up our situation and I'm going to see if I can fit a double tank top loading locker through the eyebrow hatch. If I can then I'll look at building a tilting deck inside the brow to accommodate opening the locker lid. I can then pipe the drain to a spot on the brow far enough away from windows and doors to satisfy the requirements.

Plan B;

...make Plan A work because I can't think of another way without an exposed locker on the deck and rerouting.

ksceviour said:

Plan A;

I've been sizing up our situation and I'm going to see if I can fit a double tank top loading locker through the eyebrow hatch. If I can then I'll look at building a tilting deck inside the brow to accommodate opening the locker lid. I can then pipe the drain to a spot on the brow far enough away from windows and doors to satisfy the requirements.

Plan B;

...make Plan A work because I can't think of another way without an exposed locker on the deck and rerouting.

Click to expand...

Which is my gripe concerning those that argue that a vent opening from the flying bridge does not meet the requirements as they feel the vent has to be below the gunnel.

ABYC, A-1
1.8.5 Locker vents shall be led outboard, without pockets, through the hull to a point lower than the locker bottom and above the waterline with the boat in the static floating position.

As most have said, as long as the propane can drain overboard.
My tanks are under the seat on the fly bridge. The locker is vented outboard.
It works because when I test it with water, no water gets in the boat.
It's also on electric solenoid, when is only on for limited time.

boatpoker said:

ABYC, A-1
1.8.5 Locker vents shall be led outboard, without bpockets, through the hull to a point lower than the locker bottom and above the waterline with the boat in the static floating position.

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So 3 things...does outboard ABSOLUTELY mean below the gunnel? And if so, why is ABYC language usually so specific they didnt say so in this case.

Does running a drain line back within the hull just to drain below the gunnel, posing in my mind a greaterchance of a leak inside the hull, or running it across a deck make more sense than "outboard" but not necessarily beyond the gunnels but not into or above a cockpit?

And 3, would not above fall into the catch all paragraphs at the beginning of the standards that say while the standards are preferred, so allowances can be made for variation when practicable?

kchace said:

My boat has a sealed and properly vented compartment on one side under the brow. The only requirement it doesn't meet is the relatively new one that says it must be top loading. This I can live with and indeed my setup is perfectly "legal" in my older boat.

Ken

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Ken:

The top load requirement has been in the ABYC Standards for a long time, it's not new.

Having said this, it's one of the most challenging aspects of the standard for boat builders to meet unless they design the locker into the boat, or use a stand alone add on locker. I see it frequently on many power vessels of all stripes and price ranges.

ABYC Standards are purely voluntary, however, many insurers look at them as the law. In my experience, there's usually no blanket 'grandfathering' for every 'violation' per se, it's on a case by case basis, but many insurers also recognize that if the locker was not built to meet the standard, changing it after the fact is challenging, and may waiver it. However, if the tank is under the FB brow, not in a locker, and that space is not ignition protected (I've seen this on a number of occasions), and few are, that's a different story, an insurer may not approve of this, and nor should you, it's dangerous. Among other things, the tank needs to be in a gas-tight locker which vents directly overboard.

This article covers most of the LP Standards requirements http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LPGas169-02.pdf

On the boat that you see in my avatar the two propane tanks were stored on the aft deck in the cockpit, they were canvas covered only. They would drain overboard if leakage occurred, which never happened in the 25 yrs that I had the boat.
They were the large bottles not the "bar b q" size.
CCC
p.s. Passed numerious surveys, never a question.

Mine are stored in the eyebrow as well. No issue on any survey.
One surveyor did comment to make sure any conduit going down through the boat was plugged so if a leak did occur, it wouldn't find it's way to the bilge. There are a couple of vents cut into the sides of the eyebrow.

charles said:

On the boat that you see in my avatar the two propane tanks were stored on the aft deck in the cockpit, they were canvas covered only. They would drain overboard if leakage occurred, which never happened in the 25 yrs that I had the boat.
They were the large bottles not the "bar b q" size.
CCC
p.s. Passed numerious surveys, never a question.

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You need a better surveyor.

boatpoker said:

You need a better surveyor.

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All of them certified and most hired by the insurance co. ( I hired ONE on purchase.)

Obviously they knew their business.
Unlike you I am relating FACTS as opposed to opinion.
CCC

charles said:

All of them certified and most hired by the insurance co. ( I hired ONE on purchase.)

Obviously they knew their business.
Unlike you I am relating FACTS as opposed to opinion.
CCC

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I offered no opinion. I just quoted the ABYC Standard. Suggest you take it up with them.

The original question asked about storage solutions on Taiwan builds that came with the tanks in the eyebrow. (Rather than discuss the standard, lets assume that any proposal was/is an attempt to come as close to standard as possible).

The more I look at it the more I think the only real solution is to move the tanks out of the eyebrow and accept the necessary line reroute.

The reroute wasn't all that hard for me.

Ran approved, continuous hose around and underneath flybridge overhang in PVC pipe with drainage holes drilled in. Drilled an appropriate sized hole and grommet through the cabin side to where the copper tubing went down to the galley. A few holes had to be enlarged from copper tubing size, and some trim had to be moved to finalize the run to the stove.

Because my tank is just open air on the flybridge, the hose run really only took a couple hours after the copper was pulled out.

We will see if my insurance allows it all as I just sent in my self survey.

Opinion

Under eyebrow ABYC approved container. Vented overboard. Solenoid. All safe. One gallon tank. Just began cooking aboard and enjoying it - getting over the fear of using propane in the salon.


How long should a gallon of propane last? Hours? Anyone know?


mike

Islanddreamer said:

Under eyebrow ABYC approved container. Vented overboard. Solenoid. All safe. One gallon tank. Just began cooking aboard and enjoying it - getting over the fear of using propane in the salon.


How long should a gallon of propane last? Hours? Anyone know?


mike

Click to expand...

Just for cooking I would say a fair while. Less than half a 20# tank (4ish gallons) lasts me an entire season and then some.


Ken