Do windlass motors wear out?

I have a Lewmar concept one windlass on our 2005 Mainship 400. It is original to the boat. I'm pretty easy on it, I never anchor in more than 20' of water (usually 10 or less) and never use it to pull the boat up to the anchor. I tie off to the samson post when anchoring or setting the anchor so as not to stress the windlass.



Until last year I had a 44 lb delta with 75 feet of G4 chain, (I'm not sure of the size) but a year ago I upgraded to a 55 lb Rocna.


The windlass worked great for a long time, even after the anchor upgrade. But on our last trip where we anchored almost every day for a month, it seemed to be weaker than before. It had trouble popping the anchor over the roller and was slow pulling up 15' of chain plus the anchor.


Otherwise, it works great. Do electric motors weaken over time? Anything else it can be? Can they be refurbed?


Thanks,
Doug

The warning signs are there my friend. Get the motor rebuilt asap. It will crap out and not at your convience, trust me on this one.

Are you sure it is the motor? It could be a low voltage issue. It could be the motor, but I would check the simple stuff first. Check the voltage at the windlass while it is pulling the anchor and compare that to what is at the batteries while pulling. Is there a significant drop in voltage? If so it could be a loose or corroded connection. Is the voltage at the batteries good would actually be the first thing to check. If you are getting good voltage then look at the motor. Yes they can be rebuilt or replaced.

I had the same problem last year while in the Bahamas. I first took out the motor and a local electrician found that it was shorting out. Of course, I could have had it rebuilt in the states, but not there. A friend lugged a new motor to me, but that did not solve all the problem.

Motor worked will, but I kept breaking shear pins on the worm drive. I bought a new gear housing and worm drive, all good.

Motors can be rebuilt (except in the Bahamas). I think a misaligned wormdrive led to the early demise of the motor.

Gordon

And it's not always an electrical issue. If the gears are corroded or binding, that can cause these symptoms too.

Have you serviced it? The mechanism in mine needs a good annual cleaning minimally, and lubricating occasionally keeps it limber. Mine has adjustable friction plates that sometimes become more sticky than they should either because they've gotten dirty or I've adjusted them to be without realizing it. There's also a big oil sump in which the gears sit that needs to be checked occasionally for proper level and oil quality. I've learned all this by experiencing the same symptoms you're seeing plus blowing CBs and discovering what should have been done that I hadn't.

It could be that you need to tighten the clutch. Mine has a tool (similar to a winch handle) that can be used to adjust the clutch.

The symptoms you describe are consistent with one of the most common windlass problems: worn carbon brushes. I don't know about Lewmar, but on my Lofrans these are easy to remove, measure and if necessary, replace. Search YouTube and see if someone has posted a guide on how to do this or call Lewmar direct...they may be able to send you instructions. Of course any marine electrician should be able to come aboard and remove the brushes while the windlass itself remains installed and if he comes equipped with new brushes he could compare on the spot.

Yes, brushes are the most common failure point on a windlass motor. They wear down and stop making good contact with the commutator.

Find a good automotive starter/alternator shop to do the rebuild. Look for one with an old timer there who is used to making things work.

I had my Simpson Lawrence windlass motor rebuilt at a shop in Annapolis that the local S-L (well Lewmar actually) dealer recommended. He adapted (by grinding one side) a brush he had in stock to the motor. He also replaced a suspicious bearing.

David

In addition to all of the good advice above, make sure all cable connections are in good shape, no corrosion, loose,etc. and don't forget the batteries that supply the motor. How are they?

Ken

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll look into the small things and then go bigger as needed.


Batteries are good, that part I know. I visually checked the connections before we left, but not the voltage, so it could be something like that.



Sounds like a rebuild is not a huge deal. I think I'll call Lewmar and see if they do it, I don't mind sending it off, and they have all the correct parts etc.

Basic troubleshooting says start with the simple stuff first. Don’t fixate on the fix first. Make a logical plan and then test your plan step by step. I would do the simple voltage checks first. It may not be the problem, but make sure in a few minutes. You would hate to do a rebuild of the windlass and put it back in and it still not work. If the voltages are good then move to the next step in your plan. Good luck and let us know what fixed it.

Comodave said:

Basic troubleshooting says start with the simple stuff first.... You would hate to do a rebuild of the windlass and put it back in and it still not work....

Click to expand...

Indeed. When my Muir died I got an electrician in to do the tests. Advice was: rebuild. Turned out it needed a new motor, now it runs almost too fast.

Not sure about the Lofrans but when I removed my Muir it was seriously heavy, I needed to be careful with my back while moving it. And local repair might save some costly freight.

Recently had the same issue with my own Lewmar. I replaced it with a spare I already had because I had been waiting for it to fail. As it turned out, it was probably the easiest thing to do but it was still weak. More checking revealed a corroded condition inside the old windlass breaker. Although the windlass change was simple (I was back in business in a half hour), I still feel silly for not checking more carefully.

Dougcole said:

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll look into the small things and then go bigger as needed.


Batteries are good, that part I know. I visually checked the connections before we left, but not the voltage, so it could be something like that.



Sounds like a rebuild is not a huge deal. I think I'll call Lewmar and see if they do it, I don't mind sending it off, and they have all the correct parts etc.

Click to expand...

A Visual inspection of terminals does not do it. The actual contact areas can become oxidized out of sight. You won't see it. A big Vdrop is an indicator but even so it is worthwhile taking the joints apart and cleaning them with a wire brush and then using something like a NoAlox or a dielectric [silicone] grease. But they can still oxidize enough to cause trouble.

You're getting some good counsel. Come up with a plan. Work the plan. Troubleshooting is about doggedly following logical steps that eliminate contributing factors on the way to finding the problem. Troubleshooting isn't about fixing the problem, that's repair. Troubleshooting is about defining the problem. You can't fix it if you don't know what's broken.

I will let you guys know what I find out, but won't get to this job for at least a month.



We just got back from a month in the Bahamas and I'm buried with things to do that are on the list in front of it. Not the least of which is figuring out where the coolant in my bilge under the tranny end of my port motor came from on the run back across the stream.



Motor is not low on coolant, no milky oil, did not appear to be any saltwater in coolant, no extra in overflow canister. Ran the motor on fast idle for 10 minutes (up to 150 degrees, it was still warm from the 5 hour run) and saw no leaks anywhere. Motor never ran hot on the gauge, 180 degrees all the way across at 2900 rpm. Could be the genset I guess, as there was also a little in the lazzerette. But if so, how did it flow into the ER? I haven't had a chance to run the genset yet.



Oh well, more detective work.

I'm curious about the windlass battery voltage.

Electric DC motors, from windlass motors to autopilot and water pump motors, have brushes and commutators that require periodic maintenance. They also have bearings that may need changing. They require a good electric supply. A lower voltage to the motor will increase the amperage being drawn by that motor, sometimes to a critical point and burn up a motor or the wiring to it.
Any of these things can contribute to a motor failing. If you aren't a hands-on boat operator you need to bring in a good electrician periodically to service your electric motors, if you do not want a failure at an inconvenient time.
In this case, without knowing the voltage to the motor under load, no one can determine if the problem is with the motor or the power supply. That is the first place to start. Like you car, the headlights may shine brightly, but the starter will not turn the motor over because the starter draws many times more amps than the lights do and the battery just doesn't have that power, if it is weak or discharged.
Most often, on a boat, it is the connections that are the cause of an electrical problem. Corrosion in the crimp connectors is common, as is the possibility that these connectors have a poor contact at their attachment points.
Generally speaking, though probably not in this case, the negative ground from the batteries to the engine block is very often the culpret in whole system electrical issues. That connection is frequently made lower down on the engine where any leaking water can easily get to it and corrode the connection.

I had a similar problem. Connection posts on the electric motor were heavily corroded, as were the connections on the wires themselves.

Lewmar sells replacement motors and replacement motors and gearboxes. My entire gearbox and motor was a ball of rust. I replaced the motor and gearbox, then cut, and re-crimped all the wire connections.

It works great now.

Tidbits and a link from a marine engineer....


"Reducing voltage supplied to a DC motor is one of the ways used to control speed. The OP stated that aside from being very slow, his windlass works fine. "

From the link...

"Operating a motor at a voltage below nominal generally has no detrimental effect on performance. In fact, running a motor at lower than nominal voltage (and, therefore, slower than nominal speed) can result in less brush and commutator wear (for brushed motors), lower current consumption, and longer motor life. On the other hand, running a motor at a voltage higher than nominal increases current draw and can cause the motor coils to overheat, decreasing motor life."

https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-can-dc-motors-run-lower-than-nominal-voltage/

Multi Faults

Dougcole said:

I have a Lewmar concept one windlass on our 2005 Mainship 400. It is original to the boat. I'm pretty easy on it, I never anchor in more than 20' of water (usually 10 or less) and never use it to pull the boat up to the anchor. I tie off to the samson post when anchoring or setting the anchor so as not to stress the windlass.



Until last year I had a 44 lb delta with 75 feet of G4 chain, (I'm not sure of the size) but a year ago I upgraded to a 55 lb Rocna.


The windlass worked great for a long time, even after the anchor upgrade. But on our last trip where we anchored almost every day for a month, it seemed to be weaker than before. It had trouble popping the anchor over the roller and was slow pulling up 15' of chain plus the anchor.


Otherwise, it works great. Do electric motors weaken over time? Anything else it can be? Can they be refurbed?


Thanks,
Doug

Click to expand...

The advice you are getting here is all good but having just rebuilt my Muir Cheetah, thought I would chip in with my experiences as I wasted a lot of time chasing faults, the first being the cable connection to the motor itself which fell out because of the heat caused by other problems made the solder in the lug melt

I resoldered that lug while at sea and then started blowing fuses and then replaced them so quickly that the motor (which had a problem) smoked,
the issue was the rear bush(bearing) in the motor was worn and the armature was poling out in the motor, so if you change the brushes, check the bearings, had I replace these , I would not have had to buy a new motor
Remember that if the voltage goes down, the amps go up and anchor winches already use a lot of amps and although I haven't heard of fires starting there , I have certainly had one friend who had that much smoke coming out of the winch/chain locker that he ahd a fire extinguisher in his hand when he opened the locker, just incase he got flames after giving it air

Just to keep everyone updated on this, I will be down at the boat next week, and will try to get to it then, and I'll post my findings.


Honestly though, it's about third on my list of tasks, as I won't be anchoring the boat for a while. I'm above average (not great, but OK) with my fluke, so I can likely run the problem down with y'alls much appreciated help.


I've been thinking on it some, and while I still think the windlass is weaker than it was, I think the bow roller may be contributing to this issue. While we were in the Bahamas I had the old roller split in two. No available exact or even close replacement over there, so I replaced it with the roller from a boat trailer. It's smaller in diameter than the old roller and is v-shaped rather than grooved. It somehow puts a twist in the chain as it comes up and eventually kinks it, causing it to jam in the gypsy. I think the smaller diameter could make the anchor tougher to pull up. Especially the part where it has to pull the anchor shank over the roller. That is where the weaker windlass is most noticeable. I'm looking at one of these wheels, but need to do some measuring before I order one.


https://windline.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=81

GregBrannon said:

Have you serviced it? The mechanism in mine needs a good annual cleaning minimally, and lubricating occasionally keeps it limber. Mine has adjustable friction plates that sometimes become more sticky than they should either because they've gotten dirty or I've adjusted them to be without realizing it. There's also a big oil sump in which the gears sit that needs to be checked occasionally for proper level and oil quality. I've learned all this by experiencing the same symptoms you're seeing plus blowing CBs and discovering what should have been done that I hadn't.

Click to expand...

What type and viscosity oil do you fill the windlass with?

steve marcus said:

The advice you are getting here is all good but having just rebuilt my Muir Cheetah, thought I would chip in with my experiences as I wasted a lot of time chasing faults, the first being the cable connection to the motor itself which fell out because of the heat caused by other problems made the solder in the lug melt

I resoldered that lug while at sea and then started blowing fuses and then replaced them so quickly that the motor (which had a problem) smoked,
the issue was the rear bush(bearing) in the motor was worn and the armature was poling out in the motor, so if you change the brushes, check the bearings, had I replace these , I would not have had to buy a new motor
Remember that if the voltage goes down, the amps go up and anchor winches already use a lot of amps and although I haven't heard of fires starting there , I have certainly had one friend who had that much smoke coming out of the winch/chain locker that he ahd a fire extinguisher in his hand when he opened the locker, just incase he got flames after giving it air

Click to expand...

Reread post #21 about voltage and amperage on DC motors....

My windlass failed last season, called Lewmar and they said we could rebuild but it was almost 20yrs old so I bought a new one. Was not the easiest install but we got it replaced and it works great

Muir replaced the dead motor on our horizontal Muir, previous boat. Cost $1200 I think, new one(HR2500)is over $4K.They had it running nicely on the bench. It was the newer more powerful motor,it stuck out below the case,had to make a wooden plinth to contain it, slight inconvenience all considered.

"Remember that if the voltage goes down, the amps go up and anchor winches already use a lot of amps and although I haven't heard of fires starting there ,"


A useful rule on most AC motors , not valid on universal (has brushes) AC or DC motors.