Insurance requires a survey, but I don’t want one...

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Steve91T

Steve91T

Guru
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
898
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Abeona
Vessel Make
Marine Trader 47’ Sundeck
I already know how this thread is going to go over, so I’ll try to justify. M

We are under contract with a 47’ 1987 Marine Trader. It’s got some known issues (dirty fuel tanks) that are being addressed. The owners are being really great about getting the boat up to my standards. If something needs to be addressed, they are having it correct with no questions asked.

So, I’m mechanically inclined. I do all my own work. I’m not saying I know everything, I absolutely don’t. The boat is in really pretty decent shape. They are getting the boat ready for sea trial with a captain and the mechanic. Once they say it’s ready, I’ll come down and that’s when they’ll take me out and I’ll be able to test all the systems and poke around.

I don’t need to pay someone to tell me that the hot water doesn’t work, or that the a Bildge pump doesn’t work. The survey doesn’t even include the engines.

So here’s my plan, I’m going to go through the boat myself and test the systems. I’ll also run the gen and make sure it doesn’t have blow by and can hold the load. For the mains, I want to again, check blow by, make sure it makes dates RPM and then have the oil sent out to be analyzed.

Also we will be paying to have the boat hauled out, checked for blisters and bottom paint.

The problem is my insurance (Boat US) requires a survey. I wanted to ask here first, but has anyone had any luck with basically convincing them to allow you to do the survey yourself? Or does it have to be from a proper surveyer? Anyone know of a good insurance company that doesn’t require one? I’d like to shop around for insurance anyway.

Thanks guys!
 

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Steve91T said:
I already know how this thread is going to go over, so I’ll try to justify. M

We are under contract with a 47’ 1987 Marine Trader. It’s got some known issues (dirty fuel tanks) that are being addressed. The owners are being really great about getting the boat up to my standards. If something needs to be addressed, they are having it correct with no questions asked.

So, I’m mechanically inclined. I do all my own work. I’m not saying I know everything, I absolutely don’t. The boat is in really pretty decent shape. They are getting the boat ready for sea trial with a captain and the mechanic. Once they say it’s ready, I’ll come down and that’s when they’ll take me out and I’ll be able to test all the systems and poke around.

I don’t need to pay someone to tell me that the hot water doesn’t work, or that the a Bildge pump doesn’t work. The survey doesn’t even include the engines.

So here’s my plan, I’m going to go through the boat myself and test the systems. I’ll also run the gen and make sure it doesn’t have blow by and can hold the load. For the mains, I want to again, check blow by, make sure it makes dates RPM and then have the oil sent out to be analyzed.

Also we will be paying to have the boat hauled out, checked for blisters and bottom paint.

The problem is my insurance (Boat US) requires a survey. I wanted to ask here first, but has anyone had any luck with basically convincing them to allow you to do the survey yourself? Or does it have to be from a proper surveyer? Anyone know of a good insurance company that doesn’t require one? I’d like to shop around for insurance anyway.

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

Super nice looking boat. Those two water streams on docked boat coming from then working engines on board or from bilge pumps? If bilge pumps... check all through hulls really carefully - including rudder shafts.

SAFECO ins is my recommendation. Still need a licensed surveyor. That seems to be a formality of every ins co.
 
Art said:
Super nice looking boat. Those two water streams on docked boat coming from then working engines on board or from bilge pumps? If bilge pumps... check all through hulls really carefully - including rudder shafts.

SAFECO ins is my recommendation. Still need a licensed surveyor. That seems to be a formality of every ins co.
Click to expand...

I believe those are from the AC’s.
 
Steve, you're not going to have much luck with convincing any insurance company to let you do your own survey, unless you're a licensed surveyor. And even then they likely would not allow it.


The whole key to a survey is objectivity. A surveyor is putting his license and reputation on the line every time he does a survey so it's in HIS best interest to do a complete and unbiased survey.


The insurance company requires it because they're going to be on the hook financially if something happens to your boat and it sinks, burns to the waterline, etc. They want to know that what they are surveying is a sound boat.


If you don't want a survey done, check around for other insurance companies to see if one of the others might insure it without a survey.
 
my insurance is allowing a self survey because my boat is turning 30 this summer, but only because the last real survey is less than 10 years ago.

if you have a a recent survey or can get one, negotiate possibly.
 
At least with BOAT/US once you do the initial survey, if they ever want another one they'll pay for it. Other companies I've done business with want an out of the water survey every 3 years or so at the owners expense. I've been with BOAT/US for 18 years now with no requirement for any survey since the first one...
 
psneeld said:
my insurance is allowing a self survey because my boat is turning 30 this summer, but only because the last real survey is less than 10 years ago.

if you have a a recent survey or can get one, negotiate possibly.
Click to expand...

Oh we have one that was done 3 years ago. I’ll see what they say. Who’s your insurance with?
 
They may accept the 3 years old one or maybe not. But they will not take your word in place of a survey. It may depend on who did the survey and what accreditations they have or didn’t have. If you are going to have a survey done, make sure they will accept the surveyor. Better to ask before you pay for it than after and the insurance company says they won’t accept the surveyor.
 
The inconvenience/cost of an insurance survey seems to me to be a poor reason to choose an insurance company.

I'd look for a company with good financial stability, a track record of standing by their policy holders when claims arise, that offers the coverage I want at what I believe is a reasonable price.

On the off-chance there are two such companies that are exactly equal in the above, and one wants a survey and one does't, then sure...
 
Seems to me if you find an insurance company that doesn’t require a survey, they may not come through when you need them the most. Not a corner I would care to cross.
 
I dont know, with sufficient experience and a good track record, I am glad an insurance company takes my word for things.

If something goes wrong and its something I missed or lied about on the self survey, they can deny my claim anyhow. But at least at some point I know they may trust and listen to me.

Sounds like a user friendy and solid risk management company to me.
 
I’ll say what I know you don’t want to hear. IMHO, not getting a survey on a 30 year old boat is the wrong place to save money. It’s about a lotmore than a hot water heater.

Just my $.02.
 
Hire a surveyor who will work on a contingency with the contingency being whether he comes up with substantially more than you do. But if he does you pay double (or some appropriate, mutually agreeable multiple). Either way, you win -- no matter what you get your survey, either for free (because it had no value to you beyond satisfying an insurance requirement) or for substantially more than you could have paid (but then, you got some very valuable information that you should be more than happy to pay for).
 
We have had to survey our boat everytime we get a new insurance company thru our broker, if insurance changes. Last one was 10 years ago as we have had the same company . Not a through buyers survey but one that looks at over all seaworthlyness of vessel and such things as thru hulls, battery nuts,fire equipment, electrical panel,overall shipshape of vessel. Are you going to buy this boat without a survey???? Seam that even with your mechinal knowledge, you might want one , just to find anything you have not been told about or shown by owner or broker. With so much found so far ,, I would think that you would want one and then you have one for the insurance company and a knowledge of what you need to address. Good Luck
 
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Another reason they want an independent survey is to verify the boat is real, not someone trying to scam the insurance company.
 
They are looking an objective market/condition valuation and risk. If the boat has a three year old survey they may accept it and allow you to submit a self survey for any deficiencies identified on the original.

Worth asking.

I'm also a DIY guy but I really like the idea of a surveyor onboard for inspection and sea trial. A small price to pay for access to all of that experience.
 
Last edited:
Steve91T said:
We are under contract with a 47’ 1987 Marine Trader. It’s got some known issues (dirty fuel tanks) that are being addressed. The owners are being really great about getting the boat up to my standards. If something needs to be addressed, they are having it correct with no questions asked.
Click to expand...

Lots of good advice here, and I'd echo that you don't want to limit your choices to only those that don't require a survey. I bought my boat without a survey, then found a reputable insurer that had a package that suited me at a fair price. So I paid to have a survey done a couple of days after after I'd closed in order to make the underwriter happy. Think I'll do things differently next time :)

I'm not sure why you'd buy the boat without a survey anyway. Where did your list of known issues come from? Are you confident in your ability to understand what to look at/common issues/what's important? I'd be looking for a good purchaser's survey rather than trying to avoid one altogether.
 
Now, having a previous survey may be ok with them. However, a self survey in your situation would have one other negative. Were you to have a claim, they might come back and claim it was something pre-existing from the purchase and that you didn't find. You put yourself at risk in the event of a claim as you can't cite the survey and say someone independent approved it.
 
An insurer asked to accept the risk of your boat without the survey most buyers obtain as a matter of course might be concerned. First they have no independent advice about the state of the boat and second they have an insured who wants to avoid getting the usual pre purchase survey. They might think you are going to be tight on maintenance for reasons they could speculate on,and that you are somehow different to the normal prudent purchaser who gets hull and engine surveys.

Consider that your view of the boat you`ve chosen to own might color your view of it, however objective you try to be. IMO you should get that survey. Limiting your range of insurers to those who don`t mind you not getting a survey sounds unwise.
 
I'm going to go against the grain a bit here.

I agree the insurance company will want the survey, no other option.

Where I differ is the value of the survey. So the surveyor comes up with a list of little non-safety issues like the water heaters don't work or (in my case) the stupid useless little windshield wiper on the lower helm (which I've never used) didn't work.

Then you have to fix them all BEFORE they'll issue the policy. Why? They don't think I can get the boat home safely without a water heater or a tiny wiper on a window that's covered anyway?

It may be possible to get an "insurance survey," which is less intrusive than a full survey. Worth asking, anyway.
 
Sooo... sure have been a more than few posts to help you.

May I ask - Is it simply personal financial savings why you do not want a pro surveyor? Or, are you already afraid of what a pro may find and you'd rather the ins co not know.

Either way... the devil's in the details; so to say.

I strongly recommend you to find a good surveyor and have the best survey possible completed. It is in the best interest for all concerned.

:popcorn:
 
The other thing a survey will provide is the surveyors opinion of the value of the vessel.... This is the other part of the reason insurance companies typically require a recent survey.
 
CaptTom said:
It may be possible to get an "insurance survey," which is less intrusive than a full survey. Worth asking, anyway.
Click to expand...

That's often possible and reasonable. Insurers may even recommend surveyors and, in this situation, no problem using one of their recommended surveyors.
 
CaptTom said:
I'm going to go against the grain a bit here.

I agree the insurance company will want the survey, no other option.

Where I differ is the value of the survey. So the surveyor comes up with a list of little non-safety issues like the water heaters don't work or (in my case) the stupid useless little windshield wiper on the lower helm (which I've never used) didn't work.

Then you have to fix them all BEFORE they'll issue the policy. Why? They don't think I can get the boat home safely without a water heater or a tiny wiper on a window that's covered anyway?

It may be possible to get an "insurance survey," which is less intrusive than a full survey. Worth asking, anyway.
Click to expand...


My insurance company wanted the deficiencies corrected, but not before they wrote the policy. They gave me 60 days if I remember correctly to correct the deficiencies, it may have been 30 days. But they didn’t require them corrected prior to writing the policy. If they did that you would not be able to get a mortgage on the boat.
 
Comodave said:
My insurance company wanted the deficiencies corrected, but not before they wrote the policy. They gave me 60 days if I remember correctly to correct the deficiencies, it may have been 30 days. But they didn’t require them corrected prior to writing the policy. If they did that you would not be able to get a mortgage on the boat.
Click to expand...

That may be true. In my case I bought the boat in February and couldn't get underway until April, so had they given me 30 or 60 days, it still would have forced me to fix everything before getting underway.

My point was, they wanted me to fix things that were pretty low on the priority list. New or upgraded equipment I felt I really needed for safety wasn't on their list at all.

So without saying a survey is a bad thing, I understand the desire to avoid one.
 
A survey for insurance purposes doesn't seem avoidable here. When I bought my boat there was a survey left aboard by the PO that was only a couple of years old. My insurance co was happy with that at the beginning, but as soon as the boat aged to 20, they have consistently required a survey every 7 years. This time, for the first time, they also required a mechanical inspection. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any well established criterion for a ME, so it took a few back and forth emails with the insurer to define the scope of that ME. I hope the insurance co is OK with what was done, as I was surprised at how superficial it was.
 
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