1/2 or 5/8 Chain for Krogen 54?

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Arthurc

Arthurc

Guru
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
752
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Sea Bear
Vessel Make
Kadey-Krogen 54
Well after all the feedback about 3/8 chain in my snubber post I have been able to confirm with Ideal that they can make a new Wildcat in either 1/2 HT or 5/8 HT chain.
Being that I will likely be often rafting with my fathers boat would it be worth going up to 5/8ths? It seems like the bigger the better in terms of what I hear about chain but want to confirm there isn’t a drawback to that.

I did also learn that they dont want me to go over 55KG on any anchor so I wont be upping the anchor when I buy my second (I currently have a Rocna 55KG)

Thoughts?
Arthur
 
What does Krogen say? They are not known to skimp when building their boats.
 
Well they put 3/8s on originally which is too small. Since so few kk54s were build I’m not sure they put much thought Into it. The ideal folks said my windlass is total overkill for the boat. Other than a few dollar a ft price difference I don’t know if I see a big drawback to going larger.
I’ll ask Krogen about the 58 and what it comes standard with.
 
One last thought, there is also a length consideration. Figuring you are in 50 ft of water would you rather have 1/2 at 8:1 or 5/8 at 6:1?
 
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One of the things I would consider is the weight per foot of the 2. While it likely won't make any difference in shallow water, lifting 50 to 100' plus the weight of anchor, could be significant. If you're anchoring deeper than 100', weight could be a huge issue.

Ted
 
Our 56 Hatteras was OEM with 3/8 BBB and did a great job for many years of anchoring, several times in awful, extended microcell type conditions. She was about 80,000lbs + fully loaded.
So if you are that paranoid go 1/2" HT at most, or switch to 3/8 HT better yet and get more.

In 50 ft, 5X chain, and in OK conditions (< 20kn) 3X worked just dandy with our dreaded old fashioned Delta anchor. Heck, I anchored a 49 Grand Banks Classic in 70 ft off Rosario with 200 ft of chain, and (the horror!) a CQR but weather was around 10kn. We spent the day getting pampered at the resort unafraid.

Have you read Hinz's Complete Guide to Anchoring and Mooring? Pretty good read and gives you a bit of triangulation.
 
Looks like timelines dictate my decision, the lead time on 1/2 is 2 weeks, on 5/8 it’s months. I’ll be going with 1/2 HT, about 400ft paired with the 55kg Rocna.
 
Arthurc said:
Well after all the feedback about 3/8 chain in my snubber post I have been able to confirm with Ideal that they can make a new Wildcat in either 1/2 HT or 5/8 HT chain.
Being that I will likely be often rafting with my fathers boat would it be worth going up to 5/8ths? It seems like the bigger the better in terms of what I hear about chain but want to confirm there isn’t a drawback to that.

I did also learn that they dont want me to go over 55KG on any anchor so I wont be upping the anchor when I buy my second (I currently have a Rocna 55KG)

Thoughts?
Arthur
Click to expand...

1/2" G4 with the snubber you've described will hold Delfin just fine, and my guess is that she weighs a tad more than you do, with about the same windage.
 
Seems to me that if the windlass is limited to a 55kg (120lb) anchor you should seriously consider the weight of the chain. We carried a 44kg with 350ft of 3/8 chain on a 65,000lb Selene. The difference in chain weight is very substantial. 100ft of 3/8-in weighs approx. 140lb; 1/2-in weighs 240lb; and 5/8-in weighs 380lb. So if you anchor in 100ft deep water you have a straight lift of 260lb, 360lb, or 500lb. Depending on where you anchor you might even need more! I would make sure your windlass will be up to the job. I heard about a USN ship that let out too much anchor chain, was unable to retrieve, and neede to cut free. Needless to say the captain lost his job!!
 
While I agree with most of what has been said above, I want to point out that you should never raft with another boat when high winds are expected. Think about what two boats rafted to one anchor would do in 40-50 kts of wind.

As an example, early in our cruising life we chartered an Island Packet 350 out of Rock Hall, Md. Late in the afternoon we dropped anchor in a small inlet off of the Chester River. There were a dozen power boats anchored/rafted outside of the inlet.

At about dark thirty a strong norther came through (it was forcasted and expected) and flipped us 180 degrees in about thirty seconds. We dragged (virtually no anchor will reset in those conditions) but got the engine started and motored out to deeper water just before grounding. Winds were 40+ kts.

The next morning all dozen of the power boats were piled up on each other and grounded at a nearby island. That must have been quite a night for those guys.

David
 
I don’t think they are worried about the actual weight of the anchor, anchor size is a way of inferring holding power and what would be required to rip the anchor out when set. When I asked about larger anchors they simply said I’d likely need to break the anchor free by running over it more often if it was too large.
The stress on the Windlass by an extra couple hundred pounds is small versus trying to pull the anchor out of a deep mud set or pulling up anchor in windy conditions without staying right over top of it.

Chrisjs said:
Seems to me that if the windlass is limited to a 55kg (120lb) anchor you should seriously consider the weight of the chain. We carried a 44kg with 350ft of 3/8 chain on a 65,000lb Selene. The difference in chain weight is very substantial. 100ft of 3/8-in weighs approx. 140lb; 1/2-in weighs 240lb; and 5/8-in weighs 380lb. So if you anchor in 100ft deep water you have a straight lift of 260lb, 360lb, or 500lb. Depending on where you anchor you might even need more! I would make sure your windlass will be up to the job. I heard about a USN ship that let out too much anchor chain, was unable to retrieve, and neede to cut free. Needless to say the captain lost his job!!
Click to expand...
 
Totally agree with what you just said, not only does rafting need more holding power but getting free of each other can be a nightmare if conditions change. That said I have yet to hear anyone complain that their anchor/chain is just too large so in the off chance things whip up when not expected I’ll appreciate the extra holding power.

djmarchand said:
While I agree with most of what has been said above, I want to point out that you should never raft with another boat when high winds are expected. Think about what two boats rafted to one anchor would do in 40-50 kts of wind.

As an example, early in our cruising life we chartered an Island Packet 350 out of Rock Hall, Md. Late in the afternoon we dropped anchor in a small inlet off of the Chester River. There were a dozen power boats anchored/rafted outside of the inlet.

At about dark thirty a strong norther came through (it was forcasted and expected) and flipped us 180 degrees in about thirty seconds. We dragged (virtually no anchor will reset in those conditions) but got the engine started and motored out to deeper water just before grounding. Winds were 40+ kts.

The next morning all dozen of the power boats were piled up on each other and grounded at a nearby island. That must have been quite a night for those guys.

David
Click to expand...
 
1/2 inch grade L on ours @ 154000 lbs
Haven't had any issues but would go bigger for the hell of it if I could.
 
I have 300' of 7/16, G70 tied to a 139 lbs Sarca Excell.....the other end is attached to an Ideal H6 winch and a Diesel Duck Sedan, about 75.000 lbs displacement.

This setup is heavier at the bottom (large anchor and smaller chain)...not sure I would do it this way today as it is very strong, it just looks a bit skimpy...
 
I have a 83', 80 ton boat and I use 1/2 BBB chain. It's plenty strong enough. Make sure your winch will lift the full rode if you're anchoring in deep water. Chain weight adds up fast.
 
One thing to also consider...if the windlass has a problem, can you retrieve the rode and anchor by hand?
 
As some of you old timers here know, I've put some ground tackle to the test and I want to point out a common misconception. The fact is, the heavier the boat the less need there is for a heavier chain. The stability and decreased motion of the heavier boat in a wind state means less snap pull on the ground tackle. My 5/16" chain rode (60,000 lbs) rode out Irma, Sandy and Mathew without any issue. The anchor (70# Danforth) never got pulled on with a 16/1 scope. The point about being able to retrieve the tackle if the windlass goes down is well founded.
 
"The stability and decreased motion of the heavier boat in a wind state means less snap pull on the ground tackle."

In a protected anchorage where wind is the only problem , this may be true.

In a wind shift , where an anchorage is less protected wave action surging the boat can tighten chain to a bar , with no stretch.

No stretch meas very high loads on every thing.
 
Arthur, don’t get too caught up in anchor or chain size. FWIW your 3/8 bbb will work fine with proper planing.The thing with snubbers is you don’t really need one until you do. We usually put out a small one on which just starts to work around 40 knots. Chain catenary handles everything up to about 45 knots. Over 45 we let out more chain, lengthen the snubber and add another if needed. Rinse and repeat as the wind pipes up. The problem with using too big a snubber at first is you tend to yank on the chain and the anchor before the line begins stretching. This can break the anchor from its set or transmit shock loads to the anchor shackle.
 
As you are looking at winch capacity to lift your anchor and chain, keep in mind that some winches have different capacity ratings for hydraulics vs electric. A Maxwell 3500, for example, can lift 3500 lbs in it's hydraulic configuration, but only 1200 lbs in it's electric configuration. That's a big difference with electric having only about 1/3 the lifting capacity.
 
"That's a big difference with electric having only about 1/3 the lifting capacity."


The real concern is the overload condition , an electric unit may let all the white smoke our, the hyd will simply stop till you increase the hyd pressure , or relieve the load.
 
twistedtree said:
As you are looking at winch capacity to lift your anchor and chain, keep in mind that some winches have different capacity ratings for hydraulics vs electric. A Maxwell 3500, for example, can lift 3500 lbs in it's hydraulic configuration, but only 1200 lbs in it's electric configuration. That's a big difference with electric having only about 1/3 the lifting capacity.
Click to expand...

TT, I don't think that is right. I believe they lift the same.

Vertical Capstan Range
 
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Arthurc said:
Looks like timelines dictate my decision, the lead time on 1/2 is 2 weeks, on 5/8 it’s months. I’ll be going with 1/2 HT, about 400ft paired with the 55kg Rocna.
Click to expand...
You might want to check that your chain locker will actually take that much chain. When we switched from 300' of 3/8" to 200' of ½" chain we had just enough room in the locker if we kept the chain from piling up.
I don't see why you want to spend the extra money on HT chain, it still isn't strong enough to hold the boat if it comes tight from the anchor to the boat, yet it is lighter than BBB, which is the standard anchor chain, making it less efficient. The gypsy for ½" BBB may be cheaper too, as it is a more common size.

Our 44-kilo Rocna (77,000# boat) rarely takes more than it's own length to set (we dove on it for about a year when we first got it) and live on the pick in various anchorages 24/7/365, in the West Indies. We rarely use more than 3:1 scope unless we expect severe weather such as a gale or tropical storm, and have never once dragged.
 
I should be fine on chain storage, I’m 1/2 full with 400ft of 3/8 bbb.
On the bbb versus HT the HT wildcat was available, the bbb was not so hence an easy decision :)
 
Arthurc said:
I should be fine on chain storage, I’m 1/2 full with 400ft of 3/8 bbb.
On the bbb versus HT the HT wildcat was available, the bbb was not so hence an easy decision :)
Click to expand...
Yep, that I understand. A gypsy for our windlass is over a grand!

As for the locker size, we were also about ½ full w/ 3/8, and I never gave it a thought. Turned out the ½" was almost 3 times larger. Just saying.
 
Oh wow, not expecting that... guess I may be breaking out the hacksaw...
I do have two lockers so I could merge them to create one and put the backup chain on the bottom.
 
No, no, do not rip an anchor out of the bottom with engine power while the chain is only connected to the windlass. Use a short over-sized snubber to take the strain.

I had to have the shaft of my anchor windlass straightened after I bought the boat because of the previous owner's poor seamanship.
 
I dont think you should ever plan on using your windlass to support load of the boat, in my case Ideal makes a nice chain stopper fitting that is super beefy and I lock the chain in there before powering over it at all.
AC
 
Arthurc said:
I don’t think they are worried about the actual weight of the anchor, anchor size is a way of inferring holding power and what would be required to rip the anchor out when set. When I asked about larger anchors they simply said I’d likely need to break the anchor free by running over it more often if it was too large.
The stress on the Windlass by an extra couple hundred pounds is small versus trying to pull the anchor out of a deep mud set or pulling up anchor in windy conditions without staying right over top of it.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't use the windless to free a buried anchor. At some point, you'll end up pulling it up by hand.

I like your idea of the 44 kg anchor, but in deep anchorages the 3/8 BBB would work well.

My 25kg Delta has never dragged yet.
 
Agreed, even rated for 5/8 chain my Windlass shows/slows when it’s starting to pull up on the anchor if it’s really dug in (anything but a lunch stop). It’s easy to just lock the chain, bump her forward and then start lifting again.
I have put extra stress on it when trying to up anchor in very windy conditions. Not sure if anyone has any tricks for that (my only Windlass controls are up front)
 
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