Hurricane Safety

hmason · Jun 10, 2018

I'm asking a question that has so many variables that a definitive answer is likely impossible. I would however like the thinking of the group.

We are spending our first hurricane season as liveaboards in Florida. Should there be a hurricane targeting us we have no intention of staying aboard however we would like to protect the boat as well as possible. I've already decided not to haul the boat. I have seen scenarios where hauled boats have sustained significant damage while boats in the water did better. I've made that decision so let's not debate that.

The marina we are at was destroyed by a hurricane (Irene?) a number of years ago and has been rebuilt to very strong standards. We are at a floating dock anchored by steel pilings. All the floating docks are behind a seawall. The dock system is designed so that extra cleats are easily added at virtually any position to accommodate storm lines. The location is 5-miles up the St. Lucie River which is part of the Okeechobee Waterway. Storm surge is certainly possible but the likelihood of the docks riding over the pilings is quite small.

The marina also has a mooring field. The moorings are of helix design and are inspected annually. Although there are some boats in the mooring field during the summer season it is by no means crowded or near capacity. I have read that helix moorings when properly installed and inspected are extremely rugged.

OK, here's the question TF'ers: Which do you think would be the safest--dock or mooring?
Thanks, Howard

Donsan · Jun 10, 2018

I would say the dock.

You will be using multiple lines and cleats on the dock. With a mooring ball, you have a single point of failure and the boat will be bouncing hard like it was on anchor. A snubber won't help much in a cane. I used to live on the Indian River and literally saw boats that had broken loose float down the river to end on on the rocks for a bridge.

Larry M · Jun 10, 2018

Dock would be my first choice. More than 1 attachment point, boats can't drag down on you and you're behind a seawall.

O C Diver · Jun 10, 2018

If I could get on a mooring for a vessel significantly larger than mine, that would be my first choice. Having been on a mooring at your marina, I would feel comfortable with twin 1" lines with chafing gear securing your boat to the mooring pendant. I don't like being side tied to a dock in a really bad blow. In an over size slip with big pilings all around would be different.

From everything I've read, it seems it's as much about the risk from other boats around you breaking loose. Depending on the wind direction, your side tie spot might be more protected from other boats and floating debris.

Pros and cons to both.

I might be tempted to tie between the dolphins above the St. Lucie lock.

Ted

hmason · Jun 10, 2018

Ted,
If there were a storm I would move into a slip rather than a side tie. Does this change your opinion?

Donsan · Jun 10, 2018

There is no right answer to this. You either get lucky or you don't.

O C Diver · Jun 10, 2018

hmason said:
Ted,
If there were a storm I would move into a slip rather than a side tie. Does this change your opinion?

If you can get an oversized slip, I might be inclined to go that way. Consider the following:

When Ocean city, MD gets a hurricane, many of the sport fish get hauled as part of the insurance plan. So I usually move my charter boat (35') into a 60 to 70' slip. The issues with my normal slip are high tide rise or fall and ample room to stretch the dock lines without rubbing pilings. Normally the big slip gives me 8 to 10' on both sides to the pilings and 15' in front and behind. With the dock lines being really long, there's lots of stretch to avoid shock loading and plenty of line to allow for extreme tidal change. Also, the pilings in the bigger slips are much more stout. This arrangement has worked well 3 or 4 times in the last 20 years.

Before you commit to the slip plan, see how big a slip you can get. If you're leaving the boat, getting the lines right to eliminate piling rash and still have ample slack for a large tide range, could be tricky.

Ted

Lou_tribal · Jun 10, 2018

Come up here, we don't have hurricane! Ok I must admit we have cold and snow during 6 months but hey you cannot have everything.

L

Deckape · Jun 10, 2018

You will need to be centered in your slip if that possible, the bigger the slip the better.Lines tied to strong pilings and cleats. Tight enough to hold boat ,but long enough to ride with tide and surge. Figure want you need to do and ask dockmaster for advice. Get your lines now ,figure where and how they will work. Try getting them from 2nd hand marine stores,Sailorman here in Ft. Lauderdale. Protect your boat from others as they cause more damage ,than the stroms.Review your insurance ,and ask questions, know your policy,take pictures of boat before, tied up, and after strom. As far as using a mooring,I would not. Most of the boats on a boot key mooring in the keys, were taken out by other boats and the dink dock from the city marina. Many still had mooring line tied on, other lost cheats,simson poles or lines broke. Surge took many, you should be good that far up river. Good luck.

Comodave · Jun 10, 2018

I would recommend a dock in Michigan.

HopCar · Jun 10, 2018

Five miles up river, in a new marina with floating docks on tall pilings, I’d be inclined to stay in a slip.

Tie the boat in the middle, double lines and porous chafe guards. Porous chafe guards are important to keep the line wet. As the lines stretch and recover they can generate internal heat and wear. Keeping the line wet helps prevent this.

Remove all canvas. No matter how tight you lash it, the canvas will get loose and be destroyed.

All bilge pumps working on automatic and batteries fully charged. I like to leave the boat plugged into the dock so that the battery charger supplies power to the pumps as long as possible before the batteries have to take over.

BandB · Jun 11, 2018

Dock slip.

And your biggest risk in one is the boats on moorings.

FF · Jun 11, 2018

If you are out cruising, you should have almost a week of warning the breeze is coming.

A smaller river that is inland 5-10 miles may not have a surge problem , no extra 10-12 ft of water.

Anchoring with multiple anchors takes time , and is sometimes difficult to not block the waterway.

But of the river bottom is sand , or stiff enough it does work.

Select a shore that will not damage the boat , should the anchoring not be successful, enough.

Chafe is the biggest on board worry during the blow..

Gabe n Em · Jun 11, 2018

Make sure the marina won't kick you out. Some don't like anyone in there during a storm. Also, check what your insurance would have you do. You definitely want them happy.

Otherwise, another vote for s staying in the marina

Tom.B · Jun 11, 2018

Add me to the slip contingent. Make sure you tie mostly (if not completely) to the piles and not the floating docks.

Donna · Jun 11, 2018

Dock. I went through a couple hurricanes on a floating dock and never even lost power although I was without power for 11 days at my brick and mortar house. Go figure.

Larry M · Jun 11, 2018

Tom.B said:
Add me to the slip contingent. Make sure you tie mostly (if not completely) to the piles and not the floating docks.

I think a lot depends on the how the docks are constructed. When Irma went through, we were tied to 10 year old Bellingham floating docks. Given the flooding we had, I’m glad we were not tied to the piles. The blue tape is what the docks floated up to.

Edit. I added not .

BandB · Jun 11, 2018

Gabe n Em said:
Make sure the marina won't kick you out. Some don't like anyone in there during a storm. Also, check what your insurance would have you do. You definitely want them happy.

Otherwise, another vote for s staying in the marina

Illegal in FL for the marina to kick you out.

BandB · Jun 11, 2018

Well and properly built floating docks have had a very good rate of success.

caltexflanc · Jun 11, 2018

You already made a bad decision; there is a reason insurance companies pay to have you haul the boat. There are good marinas up the Okeechobee to do that in. Having made that decision, not to haul and/or move the boat inland, consult the marina and your fellow dock mates and develop a community plan.

Shrew · Jun 11, 2018

We've ridden out Irene and Sandy in the slip. These are things we keep in mind. YMMV

1) Lines need to be newer with plenty of stretch left in them. Lines will eventually lose their stretch with age and repeated loading.

2) Chaffe protection.

3) double lines for redundancy. I'd rather double the number of lines than the size of the lines. All our lines are tied in sets of 2. One is tied about 2 inches longer than the other. As the first line comes on tension it starts to stretch. Then the second line comes on tension. It decreased the hit and softens the loading on the lines. The boat doesn't just pull hard and even. They 'bounce'. They pull, eventually hit the end of the stretch, then spring back and then take the load over and over repeatedly.

4) Spring lines, spring lines, spring lines. (We use a minimum of 16 lines during named storms.)

5) pilings are better than cleats, however make sure lines don't become too tight or too loose in storm surge.

6) Take down all canvas and isinglass.

7) We use preservation tape and try to seal all exterior deck hatches. Let the deck scuppers handle the water. The hatch scuppers can tend to get overwhelmed and they start to drain into the bilge.

8) Drop the anchor chain in the locker, then seal the hawse with preservation tape.

8) Expect the dock power to be OFF. Set all batteries to ALL, or wire them all together to make the largest bank you can to keep bilge pumps running.

IF the main dock is a fixed dock, take a boat pole with you when you leave. You should avoid walking the dock if its underwater, however, if you're like me, you want to check on the boat anyway. If the main dock is under water, use the boat pole to tap the dock ahead of you as you walk to detect if any of the boards are missing.

Check with your insurance about whether they prefer you to be in the water or on land.

Captain K · Jun 15, 2018

Dock.

caltexflanc · Jun 15, 2018

Shrew said:
We've ridden out Irene and Sandy in the slip. These are things we keep in mind. YMMV

1) Lines need to be newer with plenty of stretch left in them. Lines will eventually lose their stretch with age and repeated loading.

2) Chaffe protection.

3) double lines for redundancy. I'd rather double the number of lines than the size of the lines. All our lines are tied in sets of 2. One is tied about 2 inches longer than the other. As the first line comes on tension it starts to stretch. Then the second line comes on tension. It decreased the hit and softens the loading on the lines. The boat doesn't just pull hard and even. They 'bounce'. They pull, eventually hit the end of the stretch, then spring back and then take the load over and over repeatedly.

4) Spring lines, spring lines, spring lines. (We use a minimum of 16 lines during named storms.)

5) pilings are better than cleats, however make sure lines don't become too tight or too loose in storm surge.

6) Take down all canvas and isinglass.

7) We use preservation tape and try to seal all exterior deck hatches. Let the deck scuppers handle the water. The hatch scuppers can tend to get overwhelmed and they start to drain into the bilge.

8) Drop the anchor chain in the locker, then seal the hawse with preservation tape.

8) Expect the dock power to be OFF. Set all batteries to ALL, or wire them all together to make the largest bank you can to keep bilge pumps running.

IF the main dock is a fixed dock, take a boat pole with you when you leave. You should avoid walking the dock if its underwater, however, if you're like me, you want to check on the boat anyway. If the main dock is under water, use the boat pole to tap the dock ahead of you as you walk to detect if any of the boards are missing.

Check with your insurance about whether they prefer you to be in the water or on land.

That summarizes for me why I feel sticking it on the hill with a good yard is best, insurance issue or no. Have to do some of the same prep but not very much in comparison.

tego · Jun 15, 2018

Was in the eye of three hurricanes in two years in Palm Beach area back about '04-'05? I lived aboard then and each time was in a recognized "hurricane hole". I had NO damage. Lots of lines to the properly constructed floating dock slips and good chafe protection. One other important item- If you don't have LARGE scuppers, make sure you remove the cockpit drain covers and insert a "tube" of hardware cloth/screening into the drain holes so the tube projects about 10-12" above the deck. This will keep the palm fronds and debris from clogging your drains during the downpours. I had a boat next to me sink because of his failure to do this. (plus he only had one old bilge pump that failed). The water on his deck was so deep it ran over his pilothouse threshold and into the boat (about 6" high). Ben

wwestman · Jun 15, 2018

Having been there and done that, I opted to move to Puget Sound.

BandB · Jun 16, 2018

caltexflanc said:
That summarizes for me why I feel sticking it on the hill with a good yard is best, insurance issue or no. Have to do some of the same prep but not very much in comparison.

George, you repeat that often, but it contains such an assumption that there are hills, that the hills contain good yards, that the yards have good hurricane set ups and that the boats can be gotten to those non-existent magical hills. There are alternatives. There must be. Very simple that it is impossible to get every boat in FL onto the magical hill. So, one finds alternatives. Some of us are very comfortable with what we've found. Others move far away out of fear of hurricanes. Even in NC, where you have Jarrett Bay and Bennett, they could only handle an extremely small percentage of boats in the area.

I can show you damage from Rockport TX where people did exactly what you suggest, just it was done poorly, and it worked out disastrously. Repeating that putting it on a hill is the one and only right solution is tiresome and fails to recognize the realities. Saying that the OP had already made a mistake is an opinion you're entitled to, but then he's seeking additional information.

HopCar · Jun 16, 2018

Putting a boat on a hill in a hurricane strikes me as nuts. The higher you are the more exposed to wind you are. I prefer to be up a canal or river, preferably with good sized buildings or high banks to block the wind.

Shrew · Jun 22, 2018

tego said:
The water on his deck was so deep it ran over his pilothouse threshold and into the boat (about 6" high).

Previously I stated to use preservation tape on 'deck hatches', I should have included cabin hatches in that. We use preservation tape to seal the cabin hatches as well. The idea is anywhere that could allow water to seep in is sealed. It's better to prevent the water from entering than to rely on removing the water.

psneeld · Jun 22, 2018

There are always many ways to do things so it depends what is best for you....meaning getting the best setup possible which will probably never be perfect unless out of true TS winds or better.

In my mind, the biggest threat is storm surf (can be in inland marinas exposed to fetch), followed by wind once above Cat 2, followed by debris protection, followed by high water/surge (but this can really be #1 priority if in an area where it lifts so high the rest of the plan falls apart)....

Like docks floating over the piles or eroding under stands on shore including undermining hard surfaces. Both can happen unless you are convinced you are in an upgraded dock or storage lot facility.

Each destructive element of a storm has to be lessened or eliminated where ever you evac to.... or no one method or location is necessarily better than another.

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