Why have a Y valve?

One of these days, I’m going to replace the old Groco commode in our forward head with a Marine Elegance. Currently there are three paths for waste from the Groco to travel:
- straight to the holding tank for later pump out
- from the holding tank through a macerator pump and overboard (the macerator just tees off the pumpout hose and connects to its own seacock)
- directly overboard from the head (after switching a Y valve)

I’m thinking the Y valve is redundant since I can get the waste overboard (where legally permitted) via the holding-tank-to-macerator route.

Since I want to boat with my wife, I’m on a crusade to eliminate any possible (or imagined) head odors with new hoses, shorter hose runs, new freshwater commodes and—following Peggie’s advice—a second vent for the holding tank. Eliminating the Y valve gets rid of four clamped hoses that are candidates for allowing odors to escape.

So what am I missing?

(Today I powered up and programmed the new Marine Elegance and Purasan in the aft head. WHAT a great system!)

When we upgraded the head system on Blue Sky we went from the system that you have to what you are contemplating. I was a bit skeptical about losing the direct discharge, but in fact it has never been an issue whatsoever. Anywhere that allows direct discharge would also allow holding tank discharge.
I was also told that any new builds were not allowed to have direct discharge; that is in BC/Canadian waters so the rules may differ elsewhere.

My heads only pump to the holding tank, less to go wrong. I have a Y valve to empty the holding tank (dock side or overboard). I'm considering eliminating the Y and overboard discharge. With an 80 gallon holding tank and my intended cruising it won't get used. Less stuff to go wrong.

Ted

I do not think you are missing anything either. Diaphragm discharge pumps seem to be more reliable than macerators though.

The Y valve is a magnet to boarding officers. It's a holdover from olden days and IMHO you're better off without it. Putting aside legalities, it's one less thing full of waste that you might have to fix or replace some day.

Your plan is fine, and is how most new boats are built today.

One tip: put the macerator on TOP of (or above) the waste tank. When (not if) you have to work on it or replace it, you won't have to empty the tank or risk an unpleasant spill. Just T it in to the pump-out hose as you suggest. The only thing below the "high water line" of the tank would be an elbow to the pump-out hose. You could even do this segment in PVC.

Back to my comment about boarding officers; they're still trained to focus on the Y valve. Many boats still have the old design of having the valve right there in the head, allowing the user to choose to dump directly overboard. Thus all the language in the law about locking it out of service inside the 3NM limit.

The only problem might be: when the tank gets full and the pump out pump breaks, you'll be looking for a Starbucks to use the bathroom. Close to civilization not a problem. Far from civilization, could be a big problem.

I think it’s unanimous. Get rid of the Y-valve. Peggie taught me to control the macerator Pump with a key switch. That way you can legally leave the seacock open, just secure the key so you can’t accidentally discharge sewage.

Currently there are three paths for waste from the Groco to travel:
- straight to the holding tank for later pump out
- from the holding tank through a macerator pump and overboard (the macerator just tees off the pumpout hose and connects to its own seacock)
- directly overboard from the head (after switching a Y valve)

Why would the direct overboard discharge from the toilet go through a macerator pump???? Please don't tell me it's to chew up the flush--totally unncessary in open ocean. If you're in waters where that would be advisable, you shouldn't be flushing raw waste directly overboard.

I'm not a fan of always sending everything to the tank either. Why store waste aboard if you don't have to? Especially since the only time anyone ever discovers that they can't empty the tank is when the tank is full, or getting there and you're at least 3 days away from the nearest landfall that has a pumpout--assuming it can even be pumped out. Think about how many threads have been posted here in just the last few months by people unable to empty their tanks?

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

HopCar said:

I think it’s unanimous. Get rid of the Y-valve. Peggie taught me to control the macerator Pump with a key switch. That way you can legally leave the seacock open, just secure the key so you can’t accidentally discharge sewage.

Click to expand...

That is the way to do it, but we still close the sea cock unless we are going to be in a place where we can empty the holding tank overboard (eg. off shore).

HeadMistress said:

Why would the direct overboard discharge from the toilet go through a macerator pump???? Please don't tell me it's to chew up the flush--totally unncessary in open ocean. If you're in waters where that would be advisable, you shouldn't be flushing raw waste directly overboard.

Click to expand...

Hi, Peggie. The waste doesn’t go from the toilet to a macerator. It’s from the holding tank to macerator. (Direct discharge from the toilet was the other option on the Y valve—the one I want to get rid of.

HeadMistress said:

I'm not a fan of always sending everything to the tank either. Why store waste aboard if you don't have to? Especially since the only time anyone ever discovers that they can't empty the tank is when the tank is full, or getting there and you're at least 3 days away from the nearest landfall that has a pumpout--assuming it can even be pumped out. Think about how many threads have been posted here in just the last few months by people unable to empty their tanks?

Click to expand...

The tank is option B — for NDZs or in the infrequent cases we have guests spending time aboard. Option A is the Purasan in the other head. (This is actually the system you helped me design over the phone.)

HeadMistress said:

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

Click to expand...

Thanks, all. The Y is toast!

Parks, ol’ buddy, I’d appreciate more about how that key works.

Hi, Peggie. The waste doesn’t go from the toilet to a macerator. It’s from the holding tank to macerator. (Direct discharge from the toilet was the other option on the Y valve—the one I want to get rid of.

Sorry...I misread it among all those options.


Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

No Y valve here either. Toilet waste goes directly to the holding tank. From there, the stuff can be pumped out or dumped by opening a simple valve which is inconvenient to access.

HeadMistress said:

Hi, Peggie. The waste doesn’t go from the toilet to a macerator. It’s from the holding tank to macerator. (Direct discharge from the toilet was the other option on the Y valve—the one I want to get rid of.

Sorry...I misread it among all those options.


Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

Click to expand...

I hear you, Peggie. And there were two Y valves on board at one point—one for each head. Thanks again for the upfront advice on this; it was a year or two ago, but it’s finally getting done and we’re really happy with the way it’s going.

Did the same thing, removed two wye valves and a total of 4 thru hulls when I reconfigured the waste system aboard. Also changed the macerator to a diaphragm pump, and added a key switch because my overboard discharge thru hull isn't easily accessible.

The key switch is pretty straightforward. a simple SPST switch, one position turns the pump on, the other position turns it off and allows the key to be removed.

As far as the key meeting the requirements for no discharge, it's open to interpretation. Both USCG boardings I had in the past couple years wanted to see the thru hull, and I indicated it was open since we had recently been outside the 3 mile offshore limit and pumped out. Technically, the valve must be closed and handle removed, or padlocked, or access to the head must be behind a locked door. So the key doesn't really comply with the requirements, but it could be argued that a key controlling the operation of the pump satisfies the intent if the key is under control of the vessel's master. The CG guys didn't press the issue, a local LEO or fish cop might be inclined to push it. That said, if I'm cruising inland with no offshore option, I'll close the valve and remove the handle just to avoid any hassle. Still, the key is a great way to prevent incidental operation of the pump.

No Y valves for me either. My GRP holding tank has 3 seperate outlets in it. Pump-out, diaphragm pump overboard and inlet to ElectroScan Hold'n'Treat. The latter has a key to operate.

If you take out the Y valve, carry a spare macerater pump and be sure you know how to install it. Being offshore, days from port, friends onboard, is not the time to lose the ability to flush.

Sorry to break the unanimity, but I wouldn’t remove the Y valve, Murphy’s law being as dependable as it is.

Paul

I removed the Y valve on Bay Pelican and sailed that way for 20 years. Had to replace the macerator pump twice (always a fun job) of course when the holding tank was full. But I had put in a ball valve between the macerator pump and the holding tank.

For ten years we were in an area where direct discharge was permitted. I preferred the holding tank. However, I kept a spare piece of 1-1/2" hose, a 1-1/2" plug and a hose barb as emergency equipment so that I could shift to direct discharge if needed. Never needed to do so.

"One tip: put the macerator on TOP of (or above) the waste tank. When (not if) you have to work on it or replace it, you won't have to empty the tank or risk an unpleasant spill."

I would disagree with this concept as the waste , especially paper, seems to make pumps and duckbill valves unhappy.

Good suction is requited to lift the waste and both maceriators and diaphram pumps easily suffer from drying out.

Empty , rinse ,empty, rinse does help but at many pump out spots folks are waiting.

An RV discharge valve can be about $20, , although I prefer the high quality Dupree , about $50.00.

Mounted at the bottom of the tank a pump change out will only require a small pail under.

With 2 RV valves , one on either side of the pump ,and a spare pump, a swap would still smell but could be done in under a min.


https://www.dupreeproducts.com/

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CAMCO-3-RV-Waste-Valve/29764333

https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Sewer/V...MIyNGvxqao2wIVxrXACh22IgmeEAQYAiABEgKpQvD_BwE

I would definitely not remove it, with properly operated fresh water toilets, there won't be any odors to escape. It gives you a back up in case the macerator pump fails or the tank vents get clogged. If you are in some place like Lake Champlain, you will need a way to disable it properly.

Maerin said:

As far as the key meeting the requirements for no discharge, it's open to interpretation...Technically, the valve must be closed and handle removed, or padlocked, or access to the head must be behind a locked door.

Click to expand...

Technically, the rule uses those as EXAMPLES of how the system COULD be locked out. It doesn't specify you must only use the examples. My last new boat came from the factory with two hidden momentary-contact rocker switches under the helm, nowhere near the head. No way to accidentally discharge. My assumption was the lawyers at the manufacturer (Brunswick) figured that met the requirements.

As for the key switch, check the current rating. Macerators take a lot of juice. Mine are rated at something like 16A; forget the exact number but it's a lot higher than most of the "regular" key switches on Amazon. Didn't look at ignition switches, maybe they'll carry higher currents.

Two followups

— So am I correct that for US and Canadian non-discharge zones, I can remove the handles from the overboard discharge seacocks (in the closed position) and be in compliance?

— Are any of the waste diaphram pumps more reliable than others? I’m seeing Dometic, Jabsco, Raritan and a few other brands that might fit the space I have to work with.

Thanks again.

Are any of the waste diaphram pumps more reliable than others?

Click to expand...

The Sealand has the best reputation and in my direct experience dead reliable.

https://www.environmentalmarine.com/products/t-series-discharge-pumps-12-volt-301200.html


I'd also consider the Whale:
Whale Marine - Products

Thanks, George. That’s the one I had my eye on. Sealand and Dometic are apparently one and the same.

While I never got around to actually removing the Y-valves on our Selene, neither did I use them. Unless you turn them on regular (frequent) cycle, they freeze up from urine/sediment and require disassembly and greasing. I did the that when I bought the boat , and again when I sold it, so that the surveyor would not ding me. Other than that they were wired closed, and everything went to the holding tank.We took advantage of every 3 mile outing to empty the tank via the macerator. Worked like a charm.

I imagine most people's inability to empty their black water tanks is due to a problem with their macerator or other 24dc pump. It won't work for everyone, but I installed a 120vac trash pump from Grainger for about the same cost. However, there are no duck bills to wear out, it will discharge anything you can put in a toilet, and empties a 250 gal black water tank in around 8 minutes. The same pump empties the gray water tank, which I plumbed so the gray can be pumped into the black to flush it out.

To reduce the number of times we flush, between solid waste adventures, we squirt a couple of ounces of SanX into the bowl. Keeps the bowl clean, its liquid contents less obnoxious looking, and is a manual type 1 MSD, even if no LEO would recognize it as such. Makes us feel better anyway when discharging outside NDZs.

CaptTom said:

Technically, the rule uses those as EXAMPLES of how the system COULD be locked out. It doesn't specify you must only use the examples.

Click to expand...

Excellent point! I'm in 100% agreement, exactly the reasoning for my implementation of the key switch because my thru hull valve is not easily accessible. BUT... I suspect that point would be awkward to prevail in a discussion with a LEO or other "official" inspecting for compliance who expects to see an EXAMPLE. Hence my remark regarding interpretation.

caltexflanc said:

The Sealand has the best reputation and in my direct experience dead reliable.

https://www.environmentalmarine.com/products/t-series-discharge-pumps-12-volt-301200.html


I'd also consider the Whale:
Whale Marine - Products

Click to expand...

I've been using the Jabsco for a shower sump pumpout for years and it seems pretty reliable. That Sealand/Dometic costs $289 (Ok...) but the rebuild kit costs $275! Are they nuts? Even without the motor it's $150 or so.

The Jabsco service kit is about $55. This is a problem I have with most of Dometic stuff - they do not service what they sell.

DDW said:

I've been using the Jabsco for a shower sump pumpout for years and it seems pretty reliable. That Sealand/Dometic costs $289 (Ok...) but the rebuild kit costs $275! Are they nuts? Even without the motor it's $150 or so.

The Jabsco service kit is about $55. This is a problem I have with most of Dometic stuff - they do not service what they sell.

Click to expand...

On the other hand, I had a Jabsco macerator pump when I bought the boat. In 2 years I rebuilt it twice, and of course it always failed in the middle of pumping out. I replaced it with a 2nd hand T-series pump, installed new duckbills, and that was 10 yrs ago. It's been in service since without a problem. So which one is more expensive?? Not to mention the potential for frequent failure with a crapload of, well.... crap in the piping.

Macerator pump yes, that's a different pump. I don't much like the Jabsco version, and something very similar to it is in the Raritan head which makes be suspicious of that.

I've had two Jabsco diaphragm waste pumps on my boat for 10 years, they've worked perfectly without touching them. Comparing apples to apples.