Free Enterprise works

Having been outed for manufacturing their product using materials that were cheaper and weaker than promised and lying to customers about it for years, Holdfast/Rocna has experienced the predictable consequences of bankruptcy.

Capitalizing on the deception, Manson has released a new product that highlights the fact that it is made in NZ and uses the steel Rocna said they used but didn't, as well as claiming to have better holding power:

http://www.superyachttimes.com/editorial/11/article/id/7476

Looks like a bit of a knockoff of the Sarca Excel, except that it is still a concave anchor, not the convex shape of the Sarca, so while I presume it will hold well, it will still tear up the seabed and still be a bit of a mud bucket.

I can't wait for Eric's report after he buys one.....

*

Carl I'd trade my Supreme in a second for that Boss thing. Looks really good to me but the end of the shank looks a bit flimsy. I wonder why they made the slot at the end wider? Do'nt even like the slot. I put a nut and bolt in mine just aft of where the shackle would normally be to keep the rode attached to the end of the shank where I think it belongs. Without the roll bar the Boss should penetrate deep and deep is unquestionably good. Yup......I think I want one.

nomadwilly wrote:
Carl I'd trade my Supreme in a second for that Boss thing. Looks really good to me but the end of the shank looks a bit flimsy. I wonder why they made the slot at the end wider? Do'nt even like the slot. I put a nut and bolt in mine just aft of where the shackle would normally be to keep the rode attached to the end of the shank where I think it belongs. Without the roll bar the Boss should penetrate deep and deep is unquestionably good. Yup......I think I want one.

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*I would really like to see a Sarca Excel in practice. *The only difference I can see between this new Manson and the Excel is that the Excel is concave. *In the videos I have seen it looks like it would be much easier on the seabed, as well as digging in very deep.

Carl,

Alain Poiraud, the man that designed the Spade anchor did exhaustive studies to determine the ideal shape for a surface to resist movement in one direction in a fluid and concluded the slightly convex shape is superior to all others. That's another reason I choose the Supreme over the Rocna. The Boss has little flat plates on the "wingtips" of the flukes that propaply act just like winglets on an airplane wing when the anchor is burried but act as skids to keep the ass end of the anchor up while it's laying on it's side (in the initial setting position) so the tip has a good angle of attack to dig in promptly. So the "skids/winglets" help the anchor set and then increase the effectiveness of the flukes once the anchor is set. I think Manson probably came to the same conclusion that I did reguarding the roll bar. And it looks like they did find a better way.*

nomadwilly wrote:
The Boss has little flat plates on the "wingtips" of the flukes that propaply act just like winglets on an airplane wing

Click to expand...

The winglets on a plane act to reduce drag by reducing the strength and thus the drag of the wingtip vortex which is caused by the spanwise flow of air along a wing that spills off the end in a drag-inducing*circular motion.*

Somehow, I don't think this is an issue on an anchor oozing through mud....


In*looking at the Boss it has a major, major design flaw in that no provision was made at the end of the shank to offer the option of not using the slot.* That alone would rule the anchor out as a viable design in my book, having read a number of testimonials over the years from boaters who had their anchor rode slide to the fluke end of the slot in a Supreme*when the boat shifted and unset the anchor. Regardless of how good the fluke design might be, any advantage it offers is, as far as I'm concerned, totally negated by that stupid slot AND the elmination of a separate hole for a shackle to hard-connect the rode to the shank.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 15th of November 2011 06:04:23 PM

Hi Marin,

I do'nt like the slot either but a nut and bolt solves that problem.*

You're right. I should have made myself more clear. The fluid is moving in the opposite direction on the anchor but it serves the same purpose on both in that it helps the given fluke/wing area work better, harder or more effectively. I just thought of something. When the anchor is rotating (as being pulled around from a change in wind direction) the concave fluke should help keep the fluke horizontal and the convex fluke should allow the fluke to rotate along it's axis forcing itself on it's side where it resets (hopefully) and in the case of the Rocna probably. Perhaps I should turn my old XYZ up side down and re-bend the trailing edge.*

That shackle is mounted backwards. The pin needs to be through the chain in order to avoid side loading and stress which could break it.

nomadwilly wrote:
Hi Marin,

I do'nt like the slot either but a nut and bolt solves that problem.*

*

Click to expand...

*Makes sense to me, Eric. *I gather the slot is highly desirable when anchoring in coral because of the probability that it will get hung up in a way we rarely see in the mud and sand of colder climes. *I'd like to find out what the dimensions are of the new Manson shank, thickness wise. *Thicker is better.

Keith wrote:
That shackle is mounted backwards. The pin needs to be through the chain in order to avoid side loading and stress which could break it.

Click to expand...

*Correctamundo.

Delfin wrote:**I gather the slot is highly desirable when anchoring in coral because of the probability that it will get hung up in a way we rarely see in the mud and sand of colder climes.

Click to expand...

This is true.* However some of the testimonials I've read about the Manson complained about the anchor being backed out in all sorts of bottoms, including rocky as well as mud, sand, etc.* That's why elect to use a trip line if we're anchored someplace with a reputation for debris or rocks on the bottom.* Even if the risk of the rode sliding down the slot and backing the anchor out is small, it has happened to enough people (who've written about it, don't know how many more there are who haven't) to make us not want to mess with the risk.

It is a clever idea, no question.* And for short-duration stays in rocky bottoms or kelp beds or whatever--- like fishing where one might move from spot to spot in the course of*day--- it's a very useful feature I think, where the liklihood of hanging the anchor is high.* But for anchoring over a period of time, overnight, or whatever, I wouldn't want it.* As Eric says, you can lock off the shackle in the slot with a bolt, but then why bother with the slot at all?* It's not like you're going to dive down and remove the bolt if you find the anchor's hung up.* So I'd rather have a solid shank and that much more strength.

We have a good trip line system and it's worked very well when we've needed it to.

Keith,

The shackle is not mounted backwards. You can't get the shackle on the way you say it should go. That's why the hole in the end of the shank is frequently elongated *...to allow one to get one of the two ends of the shackle through the shank hole. A little over half of the anchors I see have a round hole whereas the shackle must go through the chain link. So if the shackle is installed the "wrong" way it's the manufacturer's fault. The shackle pin is a rather tight fit in the anchor shank on my XYZ. Perhaps Drago feels the rounded shackle will bring the first chain link fwd some and that would reduce the leverage of the side load. All the XYZ anchors are the same in this way. Here's a pic of my latest XYZ.*

Carl and Marin,

Of course. Anytime you swing around an anchor will pull out and reset itself. If the bottom is questionable or if the anchor is questionable (or both) the slot needs to be blocked. I personally do'nt think the slot should ever be used... on coral or elsewhere. I think a trip line should be used and any anchor that even without a slot comes out w a sideways pull or a 180 degree change of pull will be in the same situation as a slotted anchor pulled out. But new gimmicks will sell anchors just like anything else.....for awhile. Speaking of gimmicks I am beginning to think even the anchors w a roll bar would do fine without. If they (Rocna and Supreme) are set 180 degrees from right side up (the way we normally see them) I'll bet they will fall right over on their side and assume the setting position just like they do WITH the roll bar.*

nomadwilly wrote:
The shackle is not mounted backwards. You can't get the shackle on the way you say it should go. That's why the hole in the end of the shank is frequently elongated *...to allow one to get one of the two ends of the shackle through the shank hole.

Click to expand...

______________________________________________________

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I had intended to bring this very point up but Eric beat me to it. In my case, the slot or elongated hole Eric refers to is available.

Click to expand...

Carl,
I havn't used my Sarca Excell a hell of a lot as yet.Mainly due to this last 12 monts engine refit.
But once I get back to proper use I may try for some under water shots.
I must admit for the use I have had I am really glad I made the change from my old plough.


-- Edited by Tidahapah on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 12:23:43 AM

nomadwilly wrote:Speaking of gimmicks I am beginning to think even the anchors w a roll bar would do fine without. If they (Rocna and Supreme) are set 180 degrees from right side up (the way we normally see them) I'll bet they will fall right over on their side and assume the setting position just like they do WITH the roll bar.*

Click to expand...

I don't think they will.* They will tip too far over which means the tip of the fluke will not be able to slice vertically intto the bottom.* It will knife down at an angle, or depending on the shank design, might actually try to dig in upside down, which won't work.* A rollbar anchor won't work properly without the rollbar.* That's why it has a rollbar.

That's not to say one couldn't design a good spade anchor that will set itself without a rollbar.* But cutting the rollbar off a rollbar anchor won't make it a good spade anchor.*

By the way, I see the marine retail industry (West Marine, etc) has come up with a new marketing term for all these anchors--- spade, rollbar, claw.* They are now all in the category of "scoop" anchors.* I guess if one can't actually create a new anchor, creating a new name for the ones we already have will drum up business just as well.* "Hi, Joe.* I just bought a new scoop anchor for my boat."

nomadwilly wrote:Of course. Anytime you swing around an anchor will pull out and reset itself.

Click to expand...

*Not true at all.* It depends on the strength of the pull.* We've circled our anchor many times over teh course of a couple of days and at times were being held away from it at more than a 90 degree angle by the wind.* Not* a strong wind, perhaps only 10 knots or so.* But the anchor did not come out or move as evidenced by how deeply and solidly it was set--- it took the boat and a considerable amount of time to break it free when we left

Had the anchor been a slot anchor, and had the rode been attached through the slot, the rode would have slid down to the fluke end, and with the direction of pull now lined up to pull the anchor out rather than dig it in, we would have been un-anchored in pretty short order.* Hopefully the slot anchor woudl have pivoted around and re-set.* But as you yourself have discovered, anchors do not always set the wy they should.* So we would prefer to elminate completely the chance that the anchor wouldn't reset after being unset by the rode pulling on the anchor backwards.

I have a manson and have anchored quite a bit digs in every time, but as you say I do not use the slot

Ok, all right, you guys have flushed me out. I can't stand this inaccurate heresay any more. I have Super Sarca which pioneered the shank slot I think, and I do use it, and we have never, repeat never, been un-anchored by this bogey of the slot being bandied about. However, we have had what would have been possible cut loose and leave situations saved by the tripping feature of the slot, which does work when you need it to. Ok, one can use a trip line and float, but getting hold of that elusive crystal ball to tell you when the anchor is going to foul so you put it out...there's the trick..!
I suspect the rest of the time the anchor either stays set, and as Marin mentioned just pivots under the surface and re-aligns with the direction of pull, or in light conditions, if we drift back over it, and possibly do trip it out, then it re-sets so damn fast one is totally unaware of it happening.
As to the weakening of the shank by the slot. Again - rubbish. The thickness of metal left either side of and around the end of the slot is way stronger than the chain, which literally is your weakest link(s) in the whole set-up.
Also, talking fluke shape, I think Eric was getting his convex and concave a bit mixed up.. ? Sorry if I read you wrong, Eric.* That new Manson Boss anchor does in fact look quite good, but has a concave fluke. As does the Rocna, Ultra, and the previous Manson Supreme, the Spade, I think. The Sarca Excel, Super Sarca (like mine) and the Delta have convex bottom-shedding flukes. There are arguments for both - both types hold well, the convex, if dragged, slides along under the surface doing less damage, and brings less bottom up at up-anchor time, the concave digs a trench if it drags, sometimes breaks out in doing so, and certainly brings up more bottom...take your pick - Pat or Mick...?

Oh, and one final thought.* Although, as I said, that Boss anchor does look quite good, is it not the very epitomy of the old saying, copying is the sicerest form of flattery.* It appears now to be a combination knock-off, (they would call it refinement - and Manson have made their name doing just that - refining and improving mostly pre-existing designs), this time of the old Supreme minus the roll bar, and fluke concave like the Rocna etc, but with added winglets like the Sarca Excel (and the Ultra has small ones), and...wait for it...a slotted shank just like the Super Sarca.* Now Manson, if nothing else, research and test their design changes well - very well, as they always get a good Lloyds rating, so (Marin) do you really think they would compromise the performance of their flagship new anchor by adding a slot if their tests had not proved the opposite to this anchor tripping bogey...?


-- Edited by Peter B on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 08:25:27 AM

nomadwilly wrote:
Keith,

The shackle is not mounted backwards. You can't get the shackle on the way you say it should go. That's why the hole in the end of the shank is frequently elongated *...to allow one to get one of the two ends of the shackle through the shank hole. A little over half of the anchors I see have a round hole whereas the shackle must go through the chain link. So if the shackle is installed the "wrong" way it's the manufacturer's fault.

Click to expand...

*In that case you'd need two shackles in tandem.

So, I have quietly sat back through this whole Rocna/Manson/Whatever debate.* Anchors and their design are like politics and religion - no one is ever going to agree on everything.

I purchased a Rocna 33 from Fisheries Supply (Seattle) at the Seattle Boat Show in 2010.* I have been very happy with the anchor, never had any type of problem, and in the time we have had it, it has never drug and always sets quickly.* Used the anchor all the way up the inside passage to Alaska in 2010 and love it.* I kept the old Bruce 33 in the lazarette as my spare anchor.

The latest posts here have got me wondering.* I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.* I know that West Marine has offered exchanges on Rocnas to those who suspect they have a Chinese manufactured unit.*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask?* Don't know, but I have shot them an email asking if they can trace my anchor to a lot number or tell me if it is Chinese and suspect of the quality issues.* Also asking if they are refunding/exchanging anchors if one is shown as being substandard.* Will post the response back from Fisheries.



*

Steppen wrote:
*

*

* I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.* I know that West Marine has offered exchanges on Rocnas to those who suspect they have a Chinese manufactured unit.*

*

*

*

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*Hi Step. I purchased the same 33# Rocna at the 2011 Vancouver show and am very happy with it, although I haven't given it the same workout that you have.

The label on the side of the anchor should say where it was made, but if it is gone or illegible, the easiest way to tell a Chinese version is that it will have a large stamping on the forward underside of the anchor saying "Rocna" or similar wording.*

When I queried Canada Metal about my Chinese made 33 pounder, they reassured me that it was not part of the inferior production run. And other online commentaries have supported that.

Beautiful boat you have; I've always admired the Great Lakes 33.

Peter B wrote:
...so (Marin) do you really think they would compromise the performance of their flagship new anchor by adding a slot if their tests had not proved the opposite to this anchor tripping bogey...?

Click to expand...

*Who knows why manufacturers do what they do?* All I know is that when researching what anchor to get to replace our Bruce, I read enough testimonials on the T&T list, and on on-line review sites, and even in some on-line magazine articles, about experiences of having a Manson anchor backed out by the rode shackle sliding down the fluke end and subsequently backing the anchor out of the bottom that we determined that was not a feature we would want on our anchor. Were all these people lying? I have no idea.* But we saw enough testimonials and reviews statements to this effect that we figured why mess with the possibility at all.

The other problem the slotted anchor presented to us on our boat--- had we even decided we wanted one-- is that the inclusion of the slot PLUS the need to make the shank strong enough results in a very tall shank, or deep shank, or whatever the proper term is.* On our boat, it would have not fit under the pulpit bail.* As it turned out the Rocna barely fit under the bail as it was.* The Manson would not have fit at all.

But the main reason we eliminated the Manson from our list of candidates--- and would have elminated the Sarca, too, had it been available to us then--- is the slot.* Of course one doesn't have to use the slot, but if you're never going to use it, which would have been the case for us, then why have an anchor with it in the first place?

People who have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out have never had the rode slide down the slot and back the anchor out.* If it ever happens to them, then they will have had it happen to them.* There have been enough people who have written about or posted their experiences of having this happen to make us not want to use a slotted anchor, or the slot in a*slotted*anchor.

Today I could get a Sarca up here if we wanted one.* But the design of the anchor is not advantageous enough-- or at all---*over the Rocna to warrant pursuing this.

The one exception would be if the kind of sport fishing we did had us anchoring and re-anchoring many times in the course of a day over bottoms that are prone to snagging anchors.* In this situation, the slot is a great idea and we'd have one on the boat.* But we don't fish in this way so have no need of the advantages of a slotted anchor.

Steppen wrote:
*I really don't know if my Rocna is a Chinese built, Canadian built or NZ built unit.*

Click to expand...

The Chinese-made Rocnas have raised lettering on the underside of the narrow, angled up lip across the wide end of the fluke.* There is lettering on both halves that give the anchor name, the model (which is the same as the weight) and some other info.

If a Rocna does not have this lettering on the fluke but only has the black*nameplate on both sides of the anchor shank at the fluke end, it was made in New Zealand or by Chris Pocock's Suncoast Marine foundry in Vancouver, BC.* If it was made by Chris it will have the name Suncoast Marine in small print at the bottom of the nameplate.* I've not seen a Rocna made in New Zealand so I don't know if the plate includes a "Made in New Zealand" line or not.

Conrad and Marin -

Thank you gentlemen, appears I have a Chinese model with the lettering on the underside of the fluke.*

So Conrad, did Canadian Metal give you any indication as to why the 33 lbs models were not affected by the inferior production run?

No response back from Fisheries Supply yet.

Hi Step; here is the e-mail I received back from them:

Hi Conrad,<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Many thanks for your email.*<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Im pleased to advise that we can definitively rule out your anchor as having been affected by the recent steel issue, as our records show that*<strong style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;">no[/b]*affected anchors in the 33 pound size were sent to North America for sale.<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Were delighted to hear that your*Rocna*has been serving you well over the summer, and I hope you find this news reassuring.<br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" /><br style="color:#222222;font-family:Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial;font-size:15px;" />Please dont hesitate to contact us if there is anything else we can help you with.

Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*

Steppen wrote:
Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*

Click to expand...

All Chinese Rocnas are made of steel no stronger that 620 yield MPa, which is a minimum of 10% and up to 25% weaker in the shank that the steel specification indicated as essential by the designer. *The reason for the range of values is because steel grades generally specify the minimum strength, and actual values can exceed that minimum by a fair amount. *

The current story from those not wanting to cover excessive warranty claims is that the 620 steel is "good enough", which it no doubt is depending on the stress it is put under. *When the distributors say that no anchor in the 33 pound range with suspect steel was shipped to N.A. they are not being accurate, depending on how you define "suspect". *If you define it as steel in the 420 grade range that Rocna used for quite some time, and you have a 620 anchor then they would be correct. However, if you define as "suspect" steel that doesn't meet the minimum specifications identified by the designer, then yes, you have one made of suspect steel. *If at that time you purchased your Rocna the company website was advertising that the anchor was made of 800 grade steel, then yes, you got screwed. *Whether you care or not is a matter of personal preference. *Whether the lower grade steel will matter to you is a matter of physics.*

Steppen wrote:
*

What bothers me is that today I discovered that Fisheries Supply, one of the largest and most respected marine supply companies in the PNW, has stopped carrying Rocnas!!!!* Wonder why you might ask? *

*

Click to expand...

Perhaps they are tired of being lied to by a company that seems unable to tell the truth? *Whether it is RINA certification or steel grades used, you really can take nothing these folks say as truthful. *Given that there are better manufactured products by companies not prone to rampant fabrication, why carry Rocnas? *Who needs the grief?

Tidahapah wrote:
Carl,
I havn't used my Sarca Excell a hell of a lot as yet.Mainly due to this last 12 monts engine refit.
But once I get back to proper use I may try for some under water shots.
I must admit for the use I have had I am really glad I made the change from my old plough.



-- Edited by Tidahapah on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 12:23:43 AM

Click to expand...

*What I am really curious to know is whether the videos posted by Anchorite prove out in the real world. *Based on those videos, the Excel outpulls the Supreme and the Rocna, while doing less damage to the seabed. *I have an "Earth First, then we'll log the other planets" *bumper sticker on my truck so I am not exactly what you'd call a rabid environmentalist, but I would rather do less damage than more when anchoring so I'm willing to pay a bit if a product really is superior in this area. *

Thanks, Ben. *I hope to see your thoughts on this in the future.

Perhaps they are tired of being lied to by a company that seems unable to tell the truth? *Whether it is RINA certification or steel grades used

Click to expand...

FWIW the current version of the*Rocna website has a photo of their RINA certificate. The document is dated a few years ago.* So it would appear that that part of their story, at least,*is indeed true.

Delfin wrote:Steppen wrote:
Yahoo!!* I can relax a bit.

Thanks Conrad.

*

Click to expand...

All Chinese Rocnas are made of steel no stronger that 620 yield MPa, which is a minimum of 10% and up to 25% weaker in the shank that the steel specification indicated as essential by the designer. *The reason for the range of values is because steel grades generally specify the minimum strength, and actual values can exceed that minimum by a fair amount. *

The current story from those not wanting to cover excessive warranty claims is that the 620 steel is "good enough", which it no doubt is depending on the stress it is put under. *When the distributors say that no anchor in the 33 pound range with suspect steel was shipped to N.A. they are not being accurate, depending on how you define "suspect". *If you define it as steel in the 420 grade range that Rocna used for quite some time, and you have a 620 anchor then they would be correct. However, if you define as "suspect" steel that doesn't meet the minimum specifications identified by the designer, then yes, you have one made of suspect steel. *If at that time you purchased your Rocna the company website was advertising that the anchor was made of 800 grade steel, then yes, you got screwed. *Whether you care or not is a matter of personal preference. *Whether the lower grade steel will matter to you is a matter of physics.*

*Hi there Delphin...

Yes, I took their message to mean that we have a 620 anchor, not the 800. For the anchoring we do, it will suffice. If we decide to head north to Alaska, or go around Vancouver Island, we'd rethink the anchor, but then we'd probably also rethink the entire boat.