34 Californian props

New to the forum. I purchased a 1981 Californian in NH this Spring. she makes just under 15knots at 2500RPMs with half water and fuel. She currently has 4 blade 21 x20
Propellers. I have seen specs. That show original props were 22 x21 but nothing pertaining to number of blades and such. Wondering if anyone has this information? I plan on pulling the props this winter and have them gone through or replaced as needed. I would like to have all the information when I go by the prop shop. Leon

What engines do you have?

Meant to include that. 200 Perkins

The performance table here shows you should see 23 Kts at 2500 RPM if you had the 22x21 wheel.

Is 2500 your WOT RPM? Sounds like you might be underpropped, but if you're not over-revving at WOT, maybe not. I hope others with the 200 Perks will reply.

She will run up over 2500 RPMs. I am curious why the PO changed the prop size.

Duvie wrote:
New to the forum. I purchased a 1981 Californian in NH this Spring. *

Leon

Click to expand...

*Leon

Can't help you with the props, but welcome to the forum and to Californian ownership. *Be sure and post some pictures and information when you get a chance.

Larry B

I believe the original props were 3 blade. I just bought a 1983 Wellcraft-Californian 34LRC with the 3208N, 210HP engines.
The props are three bladed but are 22x24 which surprised me. At sea trial and bringing it home it made 2800 RPM at wot, but bottom was clean and boat was half full of fuel. Empty water tank but full holding tank, and all the kitchen ware, a tool box and lots of other stuff that were left with the boat. Probably will have to take some pitch out of the prop when we get loaded to go fishing if I want to avoid overprop situation. Boatdiesel.com has a calculator you can use to calculate performance, props size/pitch, etc. given a displacement weight and HP of engines. List your desired rpm setting and get the cruise speed and fuel consumption

Larry, had to download pictures from the Blackberry. *Something that has been on my chore list for some time! *She is in generally good shape but most all her systems and electronics need updating. *I have all the throughulls pulled right now, cleaning them up and installing new backing blocks. *This winter we will install new electronics at both stations, update associated wiring, replace/repair/manufacture new hawse holes, new flooring and LED fixtures throughout. *It should be a busy Winter! *Leon

Leon

Nice boat !!! *Sounds like you have your work cutout for you. *What area do you cruise in? *I'm in Puget Sound, Anacortes, Wa. *

I was on the lady yesterday afternoon and took her for a little spin. but was a little cold here for getting serious about any maintenance. *We have some members here with original manufactures technical information on the 34's. So if you have any questions this is a good place to post them. *you might want to look through some of the previous strings under the Californian tab if you haven't aleady done so.

Best of luck

Larry B

We keep the Solace in Little Bay in Newington, NH. *This season was mainly to figure out what we wanted to do as far as upgrades. *Plan to cruise from Cape Cod to Cape Elizabeth next year. *We had over a foot of snow last weekend! *Just about set the all time record for total snowfall for the entire month of November. *Solice is tucked away in a shed at Great Bay Marine for the Winter. *Leon

Duvie,

Not that familiar w the Perkins but I think it's very similar to the Lehman/Ford engine and they are rated at 2500rpm. The engine should achieve rated rpm at wide open throttle (WOT). Find out what rpm that occurs at and adjust the pitch (if necessary) until you get that rpm at WOT. You'll probably not get it exactly but 50rpm (approx) over rated rpm is fine or possibly even better as your engine will never ever be overloaded. First put your gear in neutral and go to WOT and observe what engine speed you get. Do'nt go over about 300rpm over rated speed as all you need to know is of your governor will allow you to run about 100rpm over rated rpm. The idea is to know that the prop loading is limiting the engine speed and not the governor. Over propping is done by some to save fuel like overdrive on a car but the fuel saved is very small and I do'nt know of any manufacturer that recommends the practice.

*
I don't know if it matters, since I rarely run them that hard, but the 76' Perkins engine manual, rates the 6.354 at 2800 RPM's and mine at WOT will run up to 2800 RPM on both engines with the original 3 bladed 22 x 20 props.

Larry B

Click to expand...

-- Edited by Edelweiss on Sunday 6th of November 2011 11:07:37 AM

I just pulled mine out of the water last week.* Got the props off Sunday afternoon.* I have Tw. 200 Perkins*in my '82 34LRC.* Props are marked 21 x 21 Federal 3 blades.* These look to my eye to have slightly more blade area than most.* Personally I don't put too much stock into the stamped size until I have them measured.* I have seen too many props tweaked an inch or so in pitch to solve some sort of issue.* I pulled mine in search of a bad vibration on both sides.* The vibration is bad enough that I haven't run the engines hard to see what they do.* I expected obviously bent shafts.* But both seem straight based on a reading with a slightly wobbly and sticky dial indicator.* It looks like one blade on each prop is bent aft about 3/4" from the other two.* I suppose that is enough to cause all forms of vibration with the long slender 1 1/4" shafts.

Capn Craig wrote:
* I suppose that is enough to cause all forms of vibration with the long slender 1 1/4" shafts.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen*1 1/4" shafts on a 6.354M. *Usually the lightest they run are the 130 HP which are 1 3/8" and 185's and up are usually 1 1/2".* With three bladed props and one blade out of balance or alignment, it will shake like a paint mixer.*

Craig, Have you taken the props to the prop shop yet? Any findings?

When I hit a submerged log years ago, I had a pronounced vibration from the stbd side. After hauling the boat, the props looked normaln but it was tweaked just enough to cause the vibration. Had both props pulled and trued and all was well.

No,*I haven't had a chance to check them out yet.* I have been so busy lately that stuff like that have had to take a time out.* I haven't had time to sit with my printer/scanner either to finish my owners manual scans.* I feel guilt, but that doesn't make any more time available* Last week's big project was getting the boat ready for winter.* I was late getting it done, as it is not unusual that we would already be into winter by now.* I can recall many a year that I rode my snowmobile by Thanksgiving.* I am in Tennessee this weekend visiting my son who is going to Tenn. Tech. U.* It is warm here, about 60 deg. the last few days.* We did get a chance to drive across Watts Bar Dam (Tennessee River) on Thursday.* This is probably about 75 to 100 miles upstream from Woodsong's home water.***Then into N. Carolina and accross the Smokies and back to Cookesville last night to be here for the Tenn Tech vs. Central Arkansaw NCAA championship game today.* My son plays in the band, and had to be there.

Now that the boat is winterized, I should have a bit more time next week when I get back up north.

I did spot what looked very suspicious on one of the props.* It looks like a crack in one of the blades about an inch and a half from the hub.* I have been trying to find a metalurgist within the Deere organization with Bronze knowledge.* No luck yet.* I don't think something like magnaflux works on a non magnetic metal.* There is a nondestructive test lab in Davenport IA. that I think could X-ray it but I havent had a chance to check that out.* I'll*have more time*in the evenings next week.* I have several questions to post, and will take a few pictures of the props too.

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving.**

Had a chance to bring one of the props into house and clean it up a bit, as well take a few crude measurements.* It is definately out of whack.* I found on one of the blades, the same blade that measures significantly different than the other two, what appears to be a crack.* Or it could* be purosity in the casting.* It os also on the 'stretched' side of the blade compared to the 'compressed' side, if the blade is bent the way it measures.* Whether it is cracked or casting purosity, it can't be good.* I'm thinking that an X-ray might shed some light, but I'm also not sure how successfully it could be welded.

The fore and aft ends of the hub do not appear to be particularly flat, so I think it very unlikely that the bore is perfectly perpendicular to either end.* I couldn't find any way to pick up the tapered bore centerline with stuff I have in my shop.***So, my measurements are crude.** Laying the prop on a flat table top, I measured the maximum verticle height of each blade off the table, and noted where it occured.* With the front of the prop down, I got 15mm of difference on one blade*vs. the*other 2 blades.* The other two blades measured within a millimeter of each other.* Flipping the prop over gave a height difference of 8mm of the bad blade*vs. the other two.

I can see how all kinds of wobble and vibration could be induced into the* shaft.* Especially if the RPM hit a nutural frequency of the shaft

So I guess the question is can*it be reliably fixed?* I spent a little time shopping props this evening, New is expensive.* I haven't made up my mind about turning it in to insurance co. yet.*

Picture 1* shown aft side down

Picture 2* shown fore side down

Picture 3* 'cracked' blade low pressure or 'fore side' of blade

Picture 4* 'back side of 'crack'* high pressure or 'aft side' of blade

It will surprise you what a professional prop shop can do with a damaged wheel.* I've seen a lot worse than that repaired.* I don't know what you have available in your area, but it would even be worth the cost to ship it if necessary.* For $250 they can make it like new.

Larry B

Prop Update:** I have sent both props to Propulsion Inc.* Hudson WI.* I got back the attached, scans.* They take a bit of interpretation but it is not hard to see how either vibrated.

I don't know how many people have seen a scan report.* I hadn't.** For the RH prop, the top of the report says the measured pitch was 21.653.* This the mean value of the actual blade pitch's.* The two vertical lines represent the acceptable tolerance for a 21" prop.* In this case:* 20.7min.*~ 21.3max.* In my case the blades measured 21.38, 21.79, 21.86.* All were over spec, but worst: Blade 3 has nearly 1/2" more pitch than blade 1.* The bar graph on the left shows blade height.* Blade 1 is off the plane of rotation by .20 in.* The bar graph on the right shows the angular relationships of the center of each blade.* The table below shows actual measured pitch's at three different distances from the centerline for each blade.* The circular graph at the bottom shows the degree that a blade is out of tolerance in various places.

Bottom Line:* Both need work* For $ 700 both will be reshaped and dynamically balanced to good as new (maybe better?).*

I have measured shaft runnout and found both to be within 0.002 TIR.* GOOD.

My quandry;**What pitch do I ask for with the prop rebuild?* I never got the opportunity to open the boat up to see what peak RPM it ran.** It vibrated too bad.** The original brochure said the boat came with 22x21's* I'm sure those were 3 blades back then.* I don't know if the 21x21's on mine were original but the P.O. said they were on it when he bought it.**He didn't recall what the engines turned WOT.

I doubt that the difference between 22x21 vs. 21x21 is very much in real terms. although bigger = more blade area = more water contacted = more thrust.* I see Duvie has the same engines and boat with 20x21 4 blades.* I suspect that his 4 blade props have very nearly the same blade area as my 3 blade props an inch bigger in O.D.* His smaller 4 blades probably runs smoother, and If he shares my spindly 1 1/4" shafts, are a bit more durable.*

So many choices,* I'm inclined to just go back to 21 pitch.* And see what happens.

*

*



-- Edited by Capn Craig on Monday 30th of January 2012 09:52:06 PM



-- Edited by Capn Craig on Tuesday 31st of January 2012 12:34:07 PM

Finally!!!!*** The prop scan reports,** and they're all the same size, as opposed to my afternoon attempt.


-- Edited by Capn Craig on Tuesday 31st of January 2012 08:49:32 PM

I guess that explains the vibration alright.* Either 21 or 22, it isn't going to make a lot of difference.* Did the PO happen to say what rpm he got at WOT?* 6-354M*is supposed to turn up to 2800 rpm's at WOT.

Larry B*

I'm sorry, I haven't had any luck attaching the scan reports.* They are .pdf format and I don't remember how to convert them to .jpg to attach.* The attach tool says they are not an image file so they can't*attach them.*** I know they are not an image file they're .pdf*!!!** I get really P.O.ed at Adobe stuff at times.* Why doesn't it just do what I want it to?** I will get it done tomorrow.

Craig, I got my props back over the holidays. They were a little worse than yours and the cost to go throu them was nearly identical. I had the work done at Accutech propeller in Dover, NH. My props were/are 21 x 20 and shafts are 1 3/8ths. I gave the shop the engine curves and boat information and let them know that my engines would go over max continuous engine speed which is 2400 rpms (ST6.3544M engines). They recomended I maintain the same pitch and suggested they add .030 cup which I had them do. I was getting 14.7 knots at about 2600 rpms. The shop said I should see a definite increase in performance, increased fuel economy and less vibration. I sure am curious how they will run this Spring! Leon

Craig, if you are not sure what your maximum engine speed is you can find the information to figure it out on your injector. *Your high idle should be the last 4 digits on the tag located on your injector and is usually set to about 10% over your maximum engine speed. *Note in the attached photograph of my injector that my high idle is set at 2640. *This number represents the maximum engine speed + 10% or 2400 + 240=2640. *My engine maximum speed is 2400 and the governor will limit the engine speed so that it should not go over 2640rpms. *I did some checking on this because I found that depending on the exact model the maximum speed varies and the propeller shop wanted this information. *The maximum continuous speed for my engine is 2250 rpms. *

I just learned somthing I didn't know.** I just checked my Perkins owners manual, workshop manual and parts manuals and none list WOT rpm's.* I didn't know to look at the injector pump.* I will need to check those the next time I'm 'in' the boat.** I decided to just go with 21 x 21 as the props were when new.* The next time I need to rework them, I will know a lot more about how they perform, and what I might do to optimize performance.

34 Californian Props

our 1981 has twin 200 Perkins swinging 3 blades. Not sure of size/pitch until we pull in October. We get some vibration out of them it seems, and they and shafts were trued in spring. Mechanic had thoughts that 4 blades might smooth her out, so I am interested in this thread. Love the boat either way so far. Our first season of ownership has been so varied in wind/ water to where RPM to knots has not been figured. Rudders sure seem small for the boat in following seas.
--Still love her.

--Jim