Puget Sound solar/wind contractor

Anyone can recommend a reliable and affordable contractor in the Seattle area?
I plan to extend my battery banks, put up solar panels, wind generators. Not urgent, but I would like to be shore power independent one day.
Please, share your experiences. Thanks.

Think again about adding a wind generator. Most need 15+ kts of wind to generate significant power. That kind of steady wind is available in the Caribbean trade wind region, but not many other places in the coastal US.

Solar panels, yes. Even in the rainy PNW you will make significant power, lots more in the dry, sunny summer.

David

Thanks David.
I do have plenty of flat surface on the top, but a frame needs to be built for the panels. I try to avoid welding, so I need to find easy mount solutions.
What do you think about this one, it only requires 7 m/h wind to start:
https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/Typmar-Maglev-Marine-Wind-Turbine

Although I have not yet installed solar panels, I've always been impressed with the knowledge of Chris B (owner?) at Revision Marine in Port Townsend. They do solar, wind and specialty battery systems. He has had a booth at the Seattle Boat Show for several years.

revision marine - marine electric propulsionWelcome to ReVision Marine | revision marine

LeoKa said:

Thanks David.
I do have plenty of flat surface on the top, but a frame needs to be built for the panels. I try to avoid welding, so I need to find easy mount solutions.
What do you think about this one, it only requires 7 m/h wind to start:
https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/Typmar-Maglev-Marine-Wind-Turbine

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The output curve says it takes almost 25 mph to put out 6 amps which is what you can get out of a 100 watt solar panel (admittedly in full sun at noon and the wind blows 24hr.)

But a realistic speed is 15 mph (7 m/s) which the curve indicates it produces maybe 2.5 amps or 60 watt hours over 24 hours. The 100 watt solar panel will do that in one hour of mid days sun and 5 times that much in an average sunny day.

Stick with solar.

David

Leo, a good PNW source for solar panels is Platt Electric. They have several outlets in Washington and you can buy individual panels from them. When I was shopping for panels, most sellers had a minimum order of far more panels than I wanted, which was two.

Also, there are a couple articles on solar panels and their installation at this site, both worth reading it you are contemplating such a project. The authors are Bob Cofer and David Marchand.

Ken.
I have read few threads here already, but I will do it again. I also check out your recommendation. All I want for now, to talk to few contractors and see, if I want to buy and install my own, or just hire it out? This is a budget issue now.

The first step is to understand your power consumption. Typically, though you put as many panels as you can fit on your surfaces. Go with solid panels where possible. Flexible panels are more expensive and there have been reliability issues with flexible panels in the past.

JDCAVE said:

The first step is to understand your power consumption. Typically, though you put as many panels as you can fit on your surfaces.

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That is solid and oft repeated advice. Since I will only be able to fit one panel conveniently on my boat, I've ignored it. I am not, like the OP, looking for energy independence. For me, solar won't get rid of needing to run the genset to charge the batteries. I am simply looking to reduce the run time of the genset and to bring the batteries up to full SOC.

As such, I want to get the highest wattage 60 cell panel I can afford connected to a MPPT controller. It won't be an ideal setup, but should be workable and achieve my aims. Even with such a simple setup, it is a big learning curve for me.

dhays said:

That is solid and oft repeated advice. Since I will only be able to fit one panel conveniently on my boat, I've ignored it. I am not, like the OP, looking for energy independence. For me, solar won't get rid of needing to run the genset to charge the batteries. I am simply looking to reduce the run time of the genset and to bring the batteries up to full SOC.

As such, I want to get the highest wattage 60 cell panel I can afford connected to a MPPT controller. It won't be an ideal setup, but should be workable and achieve my aims. Even with such a simple setup, it is a big learning curve for me.

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And that’s typically the main constraint: space limitations for the panels. You accommodate what you can. Every boat and situation is different.

dhays said:

That is solid and oft repeated advice. Since I will only be able to fit one panel conveniently on my boat, I've ignored it. I am not, like the OP, looking for energy independence. For me, solar won't get rid of needing to run the genset to charge the batteries. I am simply looking to reduce the run time of the genset and to bring the batteries up to full SOC.

As such, I want to get the highest wattage 60 cell panel I can afford connected to a MPPT controller. It won't be an ideal setup, but should be workable and achieve my aims. Even with such a simple setup, it is a big learning curve for me.

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I just put solar panels on the pilothouse roof after years of thinking it wouldn't do much good. My thinking was I already have a generator, big battery bank, and high output alternator, so why do I need another charging source? Especially one that's dependent on weather and daylight. And would solar really make a dent in my power consumption?

Turns out I really like solar! After paying for the hardware and install, it's like free power with no maintenance, and it really can make an impact on generator use.

These are the panels I used: LG365Q1C-A5 | LG NeON® R Module | Forward Energy | GridReady | Products | Solar | LG USA

They were among the most efficient I found. Platt Electric had them locally for as good a price as I could find anywhere online once shipping was factored in.

I installed a Victron charge controller with the bluetooth dongle. Very cool to be able to check solar output from a smartphone or tablet anywhere on the boat! It makes me want to replace all the electrical stuff onboard with Victron just so I can monitor and control everything from the app!

More about my solar choice here: Safe Harbour | Solar in the PNW? – Slowboat

Retriever said:

I just put solar panels on the pilothouse roof after years of thinking it wouldn't do much good. My thinking was I already have a generator, big battery bank, and high output alternator, so why do I need another charging source? Especially one that's dependent on weather and daylight. And would solar really make a dent in my power consumption?

Turns out I really like solar! After paying for the hardware and install, it's like free power with no maintenance, and it really can make an impact on generator use.

These are the panels I used: LG365Q1C-A5 | LG NeON® R Module | Forward Energy | GridReady | Products | Solar | LG USA

They were among the most efficient I found. Platt Electric had them locally for as good a price as I could find anywhere online once shipping was factored in.

I installed a Victron charge controller with the bluetooth dongle. Very cool to be able to check solar output from a smartphone or tablet anywhere on the boat! It makes me want to replace all the electrical stuff onboard with Victron just so I can monitor and control everything from the app!

More about my solar choice here: Safe Harbour | Solar in the PNW? – Slowboat

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Thanks. Interestingly enough, I was looking at that very solar panel a couple days ago. Expensive, but a lot of power for the square footage. I would love to be able to fit two panels on my PH roof, but unless I move some stuff around there, I can only fit a single 60 cell panel.

The other nice thing is that I have a Platt Electronic location near me here in Tacoma. While they may not stock those, I bet they could get them delivered to the store pretty easily.

Do you know what Victron charge controller you used? I have to admit to a lot of ignorance on the charge controller and how it would interact with my genset, alternator, and/or shore power.

dhays said:

Thanks. Interestingly enough, I was looking at that very solar panel a couple days ago. Expensive, but a lot of power for the square footage. I would love to be able to fit two panels on my PH roof, but unless I move some stuff around there, I can only fit a single 60 cell panel.

Platt didn't have them at my local store but they shipped them to the store for free.

The other nice thing is that I have a Platt Electronic location near me here in Tacoma. While they may not stock those, I bet they could get them delivered to the store pretty easily.

Do you know what Victron charge controller you used? I have to admit to a lot of ignorance on the charge controller and how it would interact with my genset, alternator, and/or shore power.

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Yes, the panels were expensive compared to most, but they're the most efficient that I could find in that size range. And the overall difference in cost wasn't really that big...a few hundred dollars as I recall.

This is the Victron controller I got: https://www.amazon.com/Victron-BlueSolar-MPPT-Charge-Controller/dp/B01BPLJASU?th=1

It's slightly undersized for 730 watts of panel, but the larger Victron controllers were out of stock everywhere I checked and the installed thought it was unlikely the panels would make more than 50 amps with any regularity.

I would never install an undersized solar controller. Sure it might reach 50 amps only 1% of the time, but each time you do you are over heating the electronics and overheated electronics don't last long.

Consider midday sun directly overhead with your batteries well discharged so that it only takes 12V to charge at 50+ amps. That controller will put out 730/12 less 5% efficiency losses = 58 amps. That 50+ amp rate won't last lon. The sun will move reducing the solar output and the battery voltage will rise as it charges reducing the amps.

But any over current in my book is too much.

David

djmarchand said:

I would never install an undersized solar controller. Sure it might reach 50 amps only 1% of the time, but each time you do you are over heating the electronics and overheated electronics don't last long.

Consider midday sun directly overhead with your batteries well discharged so that it only takes 12V to charge at 50+ amps. That controller will put out 730/12 less 5% efficiency losses = 58 amps. That 50+ amp rate won't last lon. The sun will move reducing the solar output and the battery voltage will rise as it charges reducing the amps.

But any over current in my book is too much.

David

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I was told that it's not hazardous to the controller, but that in the rare circumstances when the panels could make more than 50 amps they'll be limited. Is that not the case?

Update: I just asked Victron, and will report back what I hear. I also played with the Victron calculator and it says my configuration is "Accepted" but output will power limited to 50A.

Dave, I have to plead ignorance on the controller. I had used the calculator on the Victron site and for a single 365w panel with. Max voltage of 43v they said that any of their 75/10 or 75/15 controllers would be adequate. However, since I don’t understand what the controller is actually doing I have no idea....

MPPT controllers and PWM ones for that matter are rated as to the amperage that the controller delivers to the batteries. When I did the calculation above I used 12V because that is what a controller would deliver to a severely depleted battery.

Now the Victron controller may have a current limiting circuit, which would be great and should not harm the controller when you very occaisonally exceed its current spec.

David

djmarchand said:

MPPT controllers and PWM ones for that matter are rated as to the amperage that the controller delivers to the batteries. When I did the calculation above I used 12V because that is what a controller would deliver to a severely depleted battery.

Now the Victron controller may have a current limiting circuit, which would be great and should not harm the controller when you very occaisonally exceed its current spec.

David

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I think I'm fine. From Victron: " If more PV power is connected, the controller will limit input power."

So all I lose is charging output above 50 amps on the very rare occasion the panels might make that much.

Retriever said:

I think I'm fine. From Victron: " If more PV power is connected, the controller will limit input power."

So all I lose is charging output above 50 amps on the very rare occasion the panels might make that much.

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I believe (but remember I am ignorant) that the Victron controllers have a max voltage input that they can handle as well as a max output amperage that they will deliver. I need to do some more reading however to try and get it figured out.

dhays said:

Dave, I have to plead ignorance on the controller. I had used the calculator on the Victron site and for a single 365w panel with. Max voltage of 43v they said that any of their 75/10 or 75/15 controllers would be adequate. However, since I don’t understand what the controller is actually doing I have no idea....

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djmarchand said:

MPPT controllers and PWM ones for that matter are rated as to the amperage that the controller delivers to the batteries. When I did the calculation above I used 12V because that is what a controller would deliver to a severely depleted battery.

Now the Victron controller may have a current limiting circuit, which would be great and should not harm the controller when you very occaisonally exceed its current spec.

David

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David, I went back and looked at the Victron calculator again, this time on my computer instead of my iPad. I must have screwed it up.

Based on the specs of the panel I am looking at, the same ones Retriever used, I would need either the Victron 150/35 or 100/50 controller. Not sure which one would be better. Is it better to have more overhead in the voltage capacity or the amperage capacity?

I could use a 100/30 but could potentially be sacrificing some amperage on cool, sunny days. The controller would start limiting charge current to 30amps at around 60 degrees F. Now, how many times in the PNW will the sun be directly overhead and clear day with no shadows, no clouds, and the temperature of the panel be under 60 degrees? It could happen. We have lots of cool days in the summer and if there is a breeze it is picking up the 50 degree temps from the Sound. OTOH, the controller would only be limiting by an amp or two... and that is when the panel is brand new and absolutely clean... The more I think about it, the better that 100/30 sounds as it would save me $100.

In Retrievers example, the 100/50 controller that he has would be limiting the charge amps to 50amps throughout the entire temperature range on that mythical perfect sunny day. He would be losing about 10 amps of charging. I wish I could fit two panels like he did.

There are three specs for solar charge controllers that have to match your solar panels and battery setup: max current delivered to the batteries, max voltage input from the panels and nominal voltage delivered to the batteries which is usually 12V.

If you assume and I am not willing to do this for any installation I would make, that the current limiting circuit absolutely protects the controller, then the current spec doesn't matter- you will only be wasting current on that mythical perfect day near noon.

I don't know how much head room controllers have for excessive input voltage. Look at the panel's Voc spec (voltage at open circuit which is the most ever a panel will produce). It is usually about 36 volts for 60 cell panels and most controllers are speced at 50 or greater. Going bigger shouldn't help.

So to directly answer your question I would prefer to have more headroom on the current spec than the voltage spec, particularly as the voltage spec is almost always high enough- unless you wire two 60 cell panels in series.

And to that mythical perfect day with the batteries discharged so that the charging voltage is down to 12 V: It won't happen often- your battery bank would have to be down to 50% or less and it won't happen long, maybe an hour until the sun moves (assuming fixed mounts).

David

Thanks David. That explanation helps a lot. This is an entirely new area for me.

Here's the response I got from Victron about using a charge controller that's undersized:

"As far as output (charge current) the level is limited by the maximal of what the charge controller can do.
So when installing more PV power, this theoretical surplus will not be used.
No risk of damaging the charge controller by this by the way."

Based on this I'm comfortable with my undersized controller. I'll monitor solar output this summer and see if I'm actually losing much power. If I am, a bigger controller is in my future...

Retriever said:

Here's the response I got from Victron about using a charge controller that's undersized:

"As far as output (charge current) the level is limited by the maximal of what the charge controller can do.
So when installing more PV power, this theoretical surplus will not be used.
No risk of damaging the charge controller by this by the way."

Based on this I'm comfortable with my undersized controller. I'll monitor solar output this summer and see if I'm actually losing much power. If I am, a bigger controller is in my future...

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That was my understanding as well, that the Victron caps the amps it puts out.

My only question is that the extra power going into the controller has to go somewhere. It doesn't magically disappear....? My guess is the extra power has to be converted to heat, and while Victron says that won't damage the controller, I wouldn't be happy with it getting too hot. On the other hand, an amp or maybe two wouldn't build up much heat for the short period of time that the conditions were perfect on a cool day.

Thanks to you all for helping my brain wrap itself around this.

BTW, my apologies for hijacking LeoKa's thread. FWIW, here in the PNW I don't think wind power would be a terribly useful option. We don't have the predictable winds to really make the benefit outweigh the noise and maintenance.

djmarchand said:

...I don't know how much head room controllers have for excessive input voltage. Look at the panel's Voc spec (voltage at open circuit which is the most ever a panel will produce). It is usually about 36 volts for 60 cell panels and most controllers are speced at 50 or greater. Going bigger shouldn't help.

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The electrical engineer who was involved with my install indicated this issue sometimes creeps up during cold winter days with the sun low in the sky. The issue was whether I could combine 3 panels I series and we came to the conclusion we shouldn’t. I was basically on the cusp of that being an issue.

Jim

Retriever said:

Here's the response I got from Victron about using a charge controller that's undersized:

"As far as output (charge current) the level is limited by the maximal of what the charge controller can do.
So when installing more PV power, this theoretical surplus will not be used.
No risk of damaging the charge controller by this by the way."

Based on this I'm comfortable with my undersized controller. I'll monitor solar output this summer and see if I'm actually losing much power. If I am, a bigger controller is in my future...

Click to expand...

Sam,

I think you'll be fine.

Bob

Retriever.

Would you share the price of the panel you have installed? I looked at the link at LG, but there are no prices. Thanks.

Retriever

Would it be possible to look at your setup in person? I work in Seattle, but I go to Bremerton frequently, too. I am not sure where you are located? Thanks.

LeoKa said:

Retriever.



Would you share the price of the panel you have installed? I looked at the link at LG, but there are no prices. Thanks.

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Here is a link to Platt Electric Supply and the LG panel that Retriever installed. Hang on to your wallet when you look at the price.

I am looking at the same panel just because since I can only fit one panel I want as much power as I can get out of it. LG claims that the panel’s performance won’t degrade that much over time either.

https://m.platt.com/platt-electric-...nics-USA/LG365Q1C-A5/Products.aspx?pid=261325

LeoKa said:

Retriever

Would it be possible to look at your setup in person? I work in Seattle, but I go to Bremerton frequently, too. I am not sure where you are located? Thanks.

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Sure, I'll send you a PM!

The link dhays posted is correct...with taxes the two panels were about $1200.