Holy Windage!

I've had my boat for a year now and I truly love the Camano in most aspects, but boy is she is a you-know-what to dock in the wind especially single handed. I know I have a lot of windage on my boat (in fact, I challenge any Camano owner to show me a pic of more in windage that in my situation .

Anybody have a setup like mine and share my pain here? Note my boat is pictured in "summer mode." Winter mode is full flybridge and cockpit enclosures with isinglass panels. Oh and I often have a kayak and/or SUP on the kayak holders on the flybridge... yeah... I know. And no, overall, I can't see taking down any of the canvas even given the windage... too much great usable space!

As I look around my marina I see several boats with the same windage as your boat. It's something you learn to deal with, much as current.

If you can't figure it out, there may be an experienced captain in your area who gives instructions, one on one.

jhance said:

... too much great usable space!

Click to expand...

You pay a heavy price.

Better having the wind work for you rather than against you.

aboatman said:

As I look around my marina I see several boats with the same windage as your boat. It's something you learn to deal with, much as current.

If you can't figure it out, there may be an experienced captain in your area who gives instructions, one on one.

Click to expand...

You see Camanos with that setup? I know they are out there, but not many with full flybridge and cockpit enclosures.

I have experience with boats of all sizes... just not with this short of a waterline length and this much windage. I gotten used to it for the most part, but some windy situations are downright sketchy at best especially single handed.

markpierce said:

You pay a heavy price.

Better having the wind work for you rather than against you.

Click to expand...

That's the thing... my enjoyment of the spaces outweigh the negatives of the additional windage

OK - now dock your boat with the sails up, and you'll be doing what I have to when docking in the wind

jhance said:

That's the thing... my enjoyment of the spaces outweigh the negatives of the additional windage

OK - now dock your boat with the sails up, and you'll be doing what I have to when docking in the wind

Click to expand...

It is worse for you than that, as some advantage can be available to a sailor, knowing how to trim the sail. In your case, no trimming is possible.

I feel your pain. Acre of windage on our boat too, can be a real challenge when it's blowing hard. We roll up all the windows we can so it's just clear space or screens and that helps a little, but still can be a bear. After two years with our boat now I'm able to play the wind okay in most directions, except when it's on the port or starboard forward quarter. Pushes the bow around and I just don't have the touch on the throttles yet to correct or push back against the wind to keep the bow pointed where I want to go. Aft, on the nose, flat broadside, even on the aft quarters, I can anticipate or compensate pretty well by now, but I still can't fight the bow coming around very well at all. I watch the windsock at our marina and if it's on the forward quarter, I know it's going to take me two or three tries to get in.

jhance said:

...

OK - now dock your boat with the sails up, and you'll be doing what I have to when docking in the wind

Click to expand...

Docked 24-foot and 29-foot sloops under sail only. Not possible on the Coot since sail area is too small and the boat has insufficient keel.

What does a Camano displace, seems like 12k empty if I remember right.

There's really only one good option to make docking it easier in wind and that is bow thrusters. I know all those who will say they've docked single engine boats for 100 years and never needed them, but there are conditions in which the ability to dock is very poor on a boat like yours.

Otherwise it takes the application of more power than you're probably comfortable in applying in that situation. You have to come in hard and tie quick to overcome the wind. That is contrary to the advice most will give which is designed to prevent damage as it increases the risk of damage if you're too hard or lose power while trying to go for forward to reverse or any number of other things.

Twins work wonders for power boat handling. I'm always pleased when having twin engines.

I believe bow and/or stern thrusters work wonders if you have a single screw with so much windage/sail as on your boat.

And, I can just imagine what twins with both thrusters operational could enable. Heck... a boat might do a pirouette around dock areas...even during a bad assss blow.

rebel112r said:

what does a camano displace, seems like 12k empty if i remember right.

Click to expand...

10k

BandB said:

There's really only one good option to make docking it easier in wind and that is bow thrusters. I know all those who will say they've docked single engine boats for 100 years and never needed them, but there are conditions in which the ability to dock is very poor on a boat like yours.

Otherwise it takes the application of more power than you're probably comfortable in applying in that situation. You have to come in hard and tie quick to overcome the wind. That is contrary to the advice most will give which is designed to prevent damage as it increases the risk of damage if you're too hard or lose power while trying to go for forward to reverse or any number of other things.

Click to expand...

Camanos have bow thrusters. My particular trouble wind direction is when it's coming from my starboard quarter when I am trying to get into my bow-in starboard tie slip with a boat next to me. I can control the bow with the thruster, but sometimes trying to get the stern in, with hard to port and power, is difficult as the wind just catches the ass end and pushes me off the dock. And prop walk that would normally assist is no match for a stiff breeze and my windage. A boat hook and a deck hand are appreciated in these situations but when you're solo... no such options! Really the only way to do it is to come in hard and fast, make your flare late so as to let that vector carry you to the dock, jump out, and tie off as fast as you can... all the while not letting the wind push you too far forward into the dock at bow. And if you try to come to a perfect stop in the slip, your ass end blows away again... so you almost have to be moving forward a little as you hit the dock.
Very challenging situation running solo!

Besides thrusters, the other option is to dock temporarily at an easily accessible spot, then move when the wind drops off.

jhance said:

Camanos have bow thrusters. My particular trouble wind direction is when it's coming from my starboard quarter when I am trying to get into my bow-in starboard tie slip with a boat next to me. I can control the bow with the thruster, but sometimes trying to get the stern in, with hard to port and power, is difficult as the wind just catches the ass end and pushes me off the dock. And prop walk that would normally assist is no match for a stiff breeze and my windage. A boat hook and a deck hand are appreciated in these situations but when you're solo... no such options! Really the only way to do it is to come in hard and fast, make your flare late so as to let that vector carry you to the dock, jump out, and tie off as fast as you can... all the while not letting the wind push you too far forward into the dock at bow. And if you try to come to a perfect stop in the slip, your ass end blows away again... so you almost have to be moving forward a little as you hit the dock.
Very challenging situation running solo!

Click to expand...

You can also slightly change your angle of approach so that the stern is outside your line and needs a little wind to straighten it on the way in.

jhance said:

Camanos have bow thrusters. My particular trouble wind direction is when it's coming from my starboard quarter when I am trying to get into my bow-in starboard tie slip with a boat next to me. I can control the bow with the thruster, but sometimes trying to get the stern in, with hard to port and power, is difficult as the wind just catches the ass end and pushes me off the dock. And prop walk that would normally assist is no match for a stiff breeze and my windage. A boat hook and a deck hand are appreciated in these situations but when you're solo... no such options! Really the only way to do it is to come in hard and fast, make your flare late so as to let that vector carry you to the dock, jump out, and tie off as fast as you can... all the while not letting the wind push you too far forward into the dock at bow. And if you try to come to a perfect stop in the slip, your ass end blows away again... so you almost have to be moving forward a little as you hit the dock.
Very challenging situation running solo!

Click to expand...

Ever thought of doing away with a lot of that windage..? There is no rule that says one should have covers all round the flybridge and the cockpit. Those are meant to be outdoor 'roughing it a bit' areas, are they not? They are on my boat anyway. If you need warmth and/or shelter, you just duck inside and steer from the lower helm. If we had our boat rigged like yours we would have way more windage issues as well. But we don't, because we don't, and our docking situation is exactly like yours.

Peter B said:

Ever thought of doing away with a lot of that windage..? There is no rule that says one should have covers all round the flybridge and the cockpit. Those are meant to be outdoor 'roughing it a bit' areas, are they not? They are on my boat anyway. If you need warmth and/or shelter, you just duck inside and steer from the lower helm. If we had our boat rigged like yours we would have way more windage issues as well. But we don't, because we don't, and our docking situation is exactly like yours.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I have no desire for an O2 tent on my flybridge. I have enough windage without it. There are times when I am tempted to wrap my aft cockpit for the winter, but it isn’t big deal and again, I don’t need any more windage.

I don’t use my flybridge a lot. When the weather is nice, then I like to be out in the open. When the weather isn’t nice, that is what a pilothouse is for. However, each boat and how we use them are different.

Can the windage be reduced by rolling up the clears,to the extent canvas and clear installations allow. It could be done just for docking etc. Would that help?

There are some docking situations where single handing is just not going to get it. By the time you get in position and leave the controls, wind and current have their say and off you go. Worse if lots of windage, but this issue can exist for pretty much any boat, single, twins, thrusters or not. Only varies by degree.

Sometimes you need to arrange for line handlers on the dock or even change slips so the predominant wind is favorable.

jhance said:

Camanos have bow thrusters. My particular trouble wind direction is when it's coming from my starboard quarter when I am trying to get into my bow-in starboard tie slip with a boat next to me. I can control the bow with the thruster, but sometimes trying to get the stern in, with hard to port and power, is difficult as the wind just catches the ass end and pushes me off the dock. And prop walk that would normally assist is no match for a stiff breeze and my windage. A boat hook and a deck hand are appreciated in these situations but when you're solo... no such options! Really the only way to do it is to come in hard and fast, make your flare late so as to let that vector carry you to the dock, jump out, and tie off as fast as you can... all the while not letting the wind push you too far forward into the dock at bow. And if you try to come to a perfect stop in the slip, your ass end blows away again... so you almost have to be moving forward a little as you hit the dock.
Very challenging situation running solo!

Click to expand...

Does your location and dock allow you to come to a stop at the end of your slip, perpendicular (with wind from the direction you state)? If so, you could tie off parts of the midship/stern and warp the boat in?



You could also consider backin in on those days.....

We have pretty much the same setup as you with bow thruster. It can certainly be a challenge at times albeit much easier than with no thruster. I do have a FOB remote around my neck which enables thruster control from anywhere on the boat. This is very handy and may be a consideration for you if you don't have one???????????????

Seems to me a big enough swath of Velcro on dock edge and boat side could do the trick!


Or, maybe... a steel plate on the boat's side with a big, shore powered, remote controlled "electro magnet" on dock edge.


Just thinken out o' da box... somewhat humorously, that is.


End all seems to me, if you want to remain using same slip with conditions present that a single screw does not handle well with only you aboard - install really good bow and stern thrusters... or have a line handler of some sort on the boat or on the dock.


Best Luck!

AusCan said:

Besides thrusters, the other option is to dock temporarily at an easily accessible spot, then move when the wind drops off.

Click to expand...

Yes that.

And if this is a regular problem at your home marina, perhaps a change of slips would help.

BTW: I saw a recent Ship Shape TV episode where they installed external bow and stern thrusters on a boat. Perhaps you could install one of the external stern thrusters. I think it bolts under the swim platform.

jhance said:

Camanos have bow thrusters. My particular trouble wind direction is when it's coming from my starboard quarter when I am trying to get into my bow-in starboard tie slip with a boat next to me. I can control the bow with the thruster, but sometimes trying to get the stern in, with hard to port and power, is difficult as the wind just catches the ass end and pushes me off the dock. And prop walk that would normally assist is no match for a stiff breeze and my windage.
Very challenging situation running solo!

Click to expand...

If removing the covers to reduce windage is not an option, then sounds like a stern thruster would greatly help, if solo handling.

I am sure that you have tried all kinds of ideas. The prevailing wind in my area is out of the South. However in Gig Harbor the wind tends to swirl around so I am often getting a gentle breeze exactly like the diagram posted above. When we get a northerly, it is a lot worse.

I have had some success with putting a line on a midship cleat with a 3-4’ loop on the other end. I can toss the loop over a dock cleat as I enter the slip and turn the wheel hard to port. By putting the engine in and out of gear and I can gently snug the boat up against the dock, leave it in gear while I secure a couple dock lines.

I used an old length of 3 strand for this and it works well. However, new 3 strand would likely have a bit more stretch. If I’m not careful, I could rip the cleat out of the dock.

Thanks for all the great replies. I try to roll up the isinglass panels when I can but I should probably do it more often. Stern thruster, FOB to control bow thruster, or just avoiding a troublesome docking situations in favor of a better temporary slip... all great suggestions.

I could remove all the canvas, but like I said the usability of the spaces seems to outweigh the negatives of additional windage. I really enjoy the nice clean/dry cockpit. In the summer I remove the isinglass and can replace with screen shades if at all. This helps. The panels also keep the dang otters from making a mess in my cockpit! The flybridge enclosure probably adds the most windage, although I also remove the back panels in the summer. I too was not a huge fan of full enclosures until I tried boating in the PNW year-round. The enclosure lets me be up there even in cold weather. Without some wind screening up there, even on nice days in the summer it can be very uncomfortable and cold.

So it's a compromise I know... just have to play with the different options.

dhays said:

I am sure that you have tried all kinds of ideas. The prevailing wind in my area is out of the South. However in Gig Harbor the wind tends to swirl around so I am often getting a gentle breeze exactly like the diagram posted above. When we get a northerly, it is a lot worse.

I have had some success with putting a line on a midship cleat with a 3-4’ loop on the other end. I can toss the loop over a dock cleat as I enter the slip and turn the wheel hard to port. By putting the engine in and out of gear and I can gently snug the boat up against the dock, leave it in gear while I secure a couple dock lines.

I used an old length of 3 strand for this and it works well. However, new 3 strand would likely have a bit more stretch. If I’m not careful, I could rip the cleat out of the dock.

Click to expand...

Dave... you leave boat in gear, walking completely away from the controls, while a single dock line is holding the boat's position?? OMG my friend; please be very careful. What could happen, due to several different types of unexpected occurrences, is scary to say the least!

Your problem comes from two sources not just windage.

A deep hull the Camano isn’t. Rather shallow and flat overall. The problem isn’t going away unless the windage is reduced very significantly. With lots of practice you can up your skills but there are many situations that no amount of skill will overcome. Just need to ditch lots of windage or get blown around until you bang into things.

We had no additional canvas on our Camano and still had one situation that was hard to handle. Backing out of a slip with a strong wind coming from the starboard the bow thruster could not turn us into the wind. With very limited room and the wind pushing us into the end of the marina I had to turn to port and back all the way out. We had that wind on our bow all the way home. Should have just stayed there. For single handed docking, one trick I learned was to have a midship line ready at the helm window. Put the dock on the starboard side and toss the line over a cleat right from the helm.

porman said:

We had no additional canvas on our Camano and still had one situation that was hard to handle. Backing out of a slip with a strong wind coming from the starboard the bow thruster could not turn us into the wind. With very limited room and the wind pushing us into the end of the marina I had to turn to port and back all the way out. We had that wind on our bow all the way home. Should have just stayed there. For single handed docking, one trick I learned was to have a midship line ready at the helm window. Put the dock on the starboard side and toss the line over a cleat right from the helm.

Click to expand...

Not seeing how you get a line over a cleat from the helm single handed while the wind is pushing you away from the dock?

With the wind pushing you against the dock you can move back in the slip as far as you can and then give a good shove off and then back out quickly. Or if you have room, and if the wind is particularly bad and if you have a deck hand, a spring line from the bow to the dock amidships while hard over and in forward will rotate you and kick your stern out so you can back out against the wind.

Coming in to dock against the wind is probably the most difficult docking/undocking situation there is.