Diesel Engine Comparison Question

Art · Oct 24, 2011

Im looking at two similar boats.* Following are my engine choices.* Can you tell me which you recommend and a couple reasons why?* Thank you for any assistance you may provide! - Art

*

1976 Model: 3208 Caterpillar /*1000 hours<br clear="all" /><br clear="all" />1999 Series 400 Turbo John Deer / 750 hours

Keith · Oct 24, 2011

Nothing runs like a Deere! It's newer, has been adequately used and they have a great reputation. There are too few hours on the '76 one...it sat around a lot and no engine likes that. With either, get a good engine survey and oil analysis.

Art · Oct 24, 2011

Keith wrote:
Nothing runs like a Deere! It's newer, has been adequately used and they have a great reputation. There are too few hours on the '76 one...it sat around a lot and no engine likes that. With either, get a good engine survey and oil analysis.

*Thanks, Keith - W.

Delfin · Oct 24, 2011

I'm a CAT fan, but I agree with Keith.*

Art · Oct 24, 2011

Delfin wrote:
I'm a CAT fan, but I agree with Keith.*

Thanks, Delfin.* That's about the way I figured people would lean... I'm leaning that way too. - W. *

Marin · Oct 24, 2011

Not many hours on an older boat's engine(s) does not automatically mean the boat has sat around too much without being used. It will depend on where the boat is and how it was used by its previous owners.

Our boat was 25 years old when we bought it and the engines had only 1200 hours on them. This could certainly be construed to mean the boat was not used much and had long periods of inactivity. But this was not true at all. The boat had five previous owners. All of them used the boat regularly. But the boat had spent its whole life in San Francisco Bay. In talking to boaters who have lived and had boats there, there aren't all that many places to go. Back and forth across the bay and up the rivers is about it. So you can use a boat a lot but not rack up very many hours, which was the case with our boat.

So before you write off an older boat you like but seems to have too few hours on the engine, it might be worth it to try to determine how the boat was used by its previous owners. If it was used a lot but for short trips, which was the case with our boat, having low hours on the engine(s) could be a wonderful thing. But if the boat truly did sit around for long periods of time between owners or uses, that could be a reason to have the engine(s) VERY thoroughly checked out.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 24th of October 2011 09:26:29 PM

Art · Oct 24, 2011

Marin wrote:
Not many hours on an older boat's engine(s) does not automatically mean the boat has sat around too much without being used. It will depend on where the boat is and how it was used by its previous owners.

Our boat was 25 years old when we bought it and the engines had only 1200 hours on them. This could certainly be construed to mean the boat was not used much and had long periods of inactivity. But this was not true at all. The boat had five previous owners. All of them used the boat regularly. But the boat had spent its whole life in San Francisco Bay. In talking to boaters who have lived and had boats there, there aren't all that many places to go. Back and forth across the bay and up the rivers is about it. So you can use a boat a lot but not rack up very many hours, which was the case with our boat.

So before you write off an older boat you like but seems to have too few hours on the engine, it might be worth it to try to determine how the boat was used by its previous owners. If it was used a lot but for short trips, which was the case with our boat, having low hours on the engine(s) could be a wonderful thing. But if the boat truly did sit around for long periods of time between owners or uses, that could be a reason to have the engine(s) VERY thoroughly checked out.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 24th of October 2011 09:26:29 PM

Thanks, Marin.* If I decide to purchase, I will of course get the engines fully checked by professional diesel mechanic.* If all things were equal regarding hours of use, maintenance records, and*general condition of the engines I'd like to learn if the 1999 Series 400 Turbo John Deer, or, the*1976 Model: 3208 Caterpillar would be the preferred choice... by those that have experience with both types of diesel, or at least have knowledge on both. - W.

sunchaser · Oct 24, 2011

In what ways are the 23 years apart vessels similar?

Art · Oct 24, 2011

sunchaser wrote:
In what ways are the 23 years apart vessels similar?

Engines were replaced in one boat* i.e. the 1999*Deers.* Both vessels are same year, same builder, same model.

-- Edited by Art on Monday 24th of October 2011 11:09:29 PM

FF · Oct 25, 2011

"Engines were replaced in one boat i.e. the 1999 Deers. "

Would be interesting to question the owner WHY the engines were replaced.

Art · Oct 25, 2011

FF - Yes!*

psneeld · Oct 26, 2011

Have some experience with Deeres on our commercial boats....not sure the slogan matches actual performance of all their models...had to do a major rebuild of one after only a couple of years (couple thousand hrs)*and both engines in that boat have been plagued with oil and coolant leaks. I know that's not a fair comparison as ALL manufacturers sure have had their problems...so my advice is be careful of model and past performance when deciding between 2 different engines.

-- Edited by psneeld on Wednesday 26th of October 2011 05:09:16 PM

Art · Oct 26, 2011

psneeld wrote:
Have some experience with Deeres on our commercial boats....not sure the slogan matches actual performance of all their models...had to do a major rebuild of one after only a couple of years (couple thousand hrs)*and both engines in that boat have been plagued with oil and coolant leaks. I know that's not a fair comparison as ALL manufacturers sure have had their problems...so my advice is be careful of model and past performance when deciding between 2 different engines.

Thanks, Scott - I*yesterday learned the one with Deer is 1,300 +/- miles away (I thought it was just 6 to 700 miles previously).* Long trip on her bottom as a new to me boat; good-long hard worked (8 hr plus) sea trial needed beforehand, but the trip is undoable!* Not for mid winter in pacific going north, and a real knowing mate/other-captain should accompany me.* Also learned this morn of the one with Cats thats only a*couple hours away Cat with 1K hrs had a major at 2.5K hrs and the other engine has 3.5K hrs with no major ever.* Careful is as careful does! Cheers! Art

*

macka17 · Oct 30, 2011

'76 Vintage.
You'd be ready for a change too. 35 yrs old. and Probably run regularly with big hrs.

Those 3208's are not Cat's best engine.
From memory they were designed with another company (Ford) To keep a range of trucks running.
No Liners etc. Throwaway after a coupla low hr rebuilds.
They were OK Nat aspirated and lower HP. But once the Turbo's etc came in with different heads and manifolds.
, and horsepower went up. A lot more stress on a low stress block.
I wouldn't touch one. over a Deere. of any age thank you.

macka17

Art · Oct 30, 2011

macka17 wrote:
'76 Vintage.
You'd be ready for a change too. 35 yrs old. and Probably run regularly with big hrs.

Those 3208's are not Cat's best engine.
From memory they were designed with another company (Ford) To keep a range of trucks running.
No Liners etc. Throwaway after a coupla low hr rebuilds.
They were OK Nat aspirated and lower HP. But once the Turbo's etc came in with different heads and manifolds.
, and horsepower went up. A lot more stress on a low stress block.
I wouldn't touch one. over a Deere. of any age thank you.

macka17

Thanks, Macka17.* Interesting what you say re Cat*3208's.* I'm leaning well away from purchasing that boat due to the old Cats.* Going to see it soon with wife*simply because it is a near*duplicate boat to the one with Deers and only couple hours away by car whereas the other is*over 1,200 miles away.* If it interests us as much as I think it will then a plane flight may occur.*

sunchaser · Oct 30, 2011

Assuming the engine is not the highest HP rated*for the CID,*the color of paint is less important than the diligence towards maintenance.

Art · Oct 30, 2011

sunchaser wrote:
Assuming the engine is not the highest HP rated*for the CID,*the color of paint is less important than the diligence towards maintenance.

*Sunchaser - That is true!

Nomad Willy · Oct 30, 2011

Looks to me like the BOAT should be the choice here not the engines. Perhaps Rick and newbie macka17 could point you toward the possible weak links of the engines and w a good survey the engine choice could be obvious.*Both seem to be excellent engines but I think John Deer is a bit over rated and hyped. That would give the Deer the nod in resale value and indicate that the JD boat (all other things being equal) should be more expensive now. If it is'nt there will be a reason and once you get closer on this the boats will show you which way to go. If you have your choice of two dates, both gorgeous, both in identical beautiful red dresses it would seem like a difficult choice but once you ask the girls a few questions the choice may be very obvious. I assume the boats are Tollys.

Art · Oct 30, 2011

nomadwilly wrote:
Looks to me like the BOAT should be the choice here not the engines. Perhaps Rick and newbie macka17 could point you toward the possible weak links of the engines and w a good survey the engine choice could be obvious.*Both seem to be excellent engines but I think John Deer is a bit over rated and hyped. That would give the Deer the nod in resale value and indicate that the JD boat (all other things being equal) should be more expensive now. If it is'nt there will be a reason and once you get closer on this the boats will show you which way to go. If you have your choice of two dates, both gorgeous, both in identical beautiful red dresses it would seem like a difficult choice but once you ask the girls a few questions the choice may be very obvious. I assume the boats are Tollys.

Eric - Thanks for the post.* Girls in red dresses nearly always look nice!**What is behind their eyes*counts!* Tolly... me? You bet!! Ciao, Art

Fighterpilot · Oct 31, 2011

Did I miss the part about cost to buy and cost to get home comparison? If they are the same or close when you run the total than it is back to engine choice again.

sunchaser · Oct 31, 2011

43' Tolly's? Where are they located?

Art · Oct 31, 2011

Fighterpilot wrote:
Did I miss the part about cost to buy and cost to get home comparison? If they are the same or close when you run the total than it is back to engine choice again.

*Howdy Fighterpilot - Cost is similar re buy and get home.*

psneeld · Oct 31, 2011

Cat 3208s up to the 375hp turbos were fine..thousands of trawlers and sportfish had them....even the 3208s above that were fine if you weren't trying to push too big of a load. The 3208 was one of CATs success stories until the last couple of years when they pushed them wayyyy past their original design specs. As for no sleeves...big deal...they were cheap and supposed to be throw aways after 10,000 hours...when was the last time you saw ANY recreational boat with 10,000 hours on the engines??? Even then...big deal...rebore and bigger rings. You can get a 3208 repower job for less than a gas boat needing big blocks these days (as long as your 3208 core is good)

Art · Oct 31, 2011

psneeld wrote:
Cat 3208s up to the 375hp turbos were fine..thousands of trawlers and sportfish had them....even the 3208s above that were fine if you weren't trying to push too big of a load. The 3208 was one of CATs success stories until the last couple of years when they pushed them wayyyy past their original design specs. As for no sleeves...big deal...they were cheap and supposed to be throw aways after 10,000 hours...when was the last time you saw ANY recreational boat with 10,000 hours on the engines??? Even then...big deal...rebore and bigger rings. You can get a 3208 repower job for less than a gas boat needing big blocks these days (as long as your 3208 core is good)

Thanks, Scott - good input.* So far most I've heard from or spoken to*have been pretty leery on the older*3208 Cats.** These*Cats I refer to are 1976, 270 HP; I am quite sure NA.**One needed a major at 2500 hrs, currently has 1000 hrs.* The other has 3500 hrs with no rebuild.**I hope to see the boat with Cats soon. - Ciao, Art

psneeld · Oct 31, 2011

I haven't heard or read anything about older lower hp CATS...the only problems I had heard about was in the late 90s when Grand Banks was trying to push their bigger trawlers with something like 475hp 3208s at speeds up around 18-20 knots (not positive on exact hp or kts...but close) The 3208s had a long and fine run from everyone I know...even on the land side as many were in busses and trucks. Like a lot of marine engines..they had periods where the bolt ons were problems...like aftercoolers on some of their early 2000's 3196s I believe...but the 3208s had a better rep (at least in my circles) than most marine engine runs for the last 30 years. If push came to shove and my Lehman broke and I got a good deal on a 3208NA...I'd put it in my boat in a heartbeat. Yes there are better motors out there...but I wouldn't turn one down at the right price.

bobofthenorth · Oct 31, 2011

When we were shopping I stopped looking anytime I read "3208".* They weren't a great engine on land - I have trouble believing they were any better on the water.* Maybe the NA versions were OK but there's another problem with older Cats.* Caterpillar is really proud of that yellow paint.* I'd far rather buy parts for my Lehmans or even for Detroits.* And Lord help you if you need to pay for a genuine Cat mechanic.* I might have considered a 3406 single if we'd run into one of them because the mechanical 3406s were a great engine but I'd still have faced the problem of expensive parts.* Particularly right now there's so many good boats out there I'd just keep it simple by ruling out Cat power.

Art · Oct 31, 2011

bobofthenorth wrote:
When we were shopping I stopped looking anytime I read "3208".* They weren't a great engine on land - I have trouble believing they were any better on the water.* Maybe the NA versions were OK but there's another problem with older Cats.* Caterpillar is really proud of that yellow paint.* I'd far rather buy parts for my Lehmans or even for Detroits.* And Lord help you if you need to pay for a genuine Cat mechanic.* I might have considered a 3406 single if we'd run into one of them because the mechanical 3406s were a great engine but I'd still have faced the problem of expensive parts.* Particularly right now there's so many good boats out there I'd just keep it simple by ruling out Cat power.

*Hello Bob - TY for your opinion... Cats surely have lovers and haters!* You know anything about 1999 John Deer 400 turbo with about*750 hrs?

bobofthenorth · Nov 1, 2011

Art wrote:
Hello Bob - TY for your opinion... Cats surely have lovers and haters!* You know anything about 1999 John Deer 400 turbo with about*750 hrs?

*Sorry I don't.* In the ag world Deere has had some real winners and some genuine dogs so I would never*generalize about them.* In principal I'm opposed to turbos on go-slow boats but I realize that makes me a dinosaur.

Art · Nov 1, 2011

bobofthenorth wrote:Art wrote:
Hello Bob - TY for your opinion... Cats surely have lovers and haters!* You know anything about 1999 John Deer 400 turbo with about*750 hrs?

*Sorry I don't.* In the ag world Deere has had some real winners and some genuine dogs so I would never*generalize about them.* In principal I'm opposed to turbos on go-slow boats but I realize that makes me a dinosaur.

Bob Dino to Dino; err maybe... Dyno to Dyno! LOL...

I understand what you mean in being basically anti turbo, especially for trawler D hulls.* That said, the hull is SD and actually leans toward P hull design.* We currently have craft with full P hull and 21 + knt WOT capability; 16 knt cruise at 1 nmpg.* I generally cruise at 7 knts (just below mathematical hull speed of 7.58 knts) which provides 2.5 +/-*nmpg.* Im not so much looking to keep any boat at high speed but rather most important to me is engine reliability and its ability to run at lower rpm for extended periods of economical cruising.* I also dont mind ever so many hours to open up the engines rpm for increased engine temps and internal clean out.* Again, engine reliability is my primary goal!

Ciao, Art

Nomad Willy · Nov 1, 2011

Art,

Since you run at 7 knots it would seem looking at 7 knot boats would meet your needs much better. Just say'in.

Diesel Engine Comparison Question

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