in/out stat's

Greetings,
Are there any published statistics or articles outlining whether boats suffered varying degrees of damage from named storms by being in water vs stored ashore?
Thanks in advance...

Man..wish I could remenber where I put my memory.......

It may have bedn thd most recent BoatUS mag...but I just read an article that said dry was better than wet.

If I remember or come across it, I will shoot you a link...

I know you know, but for snyone else......

That conclusion is probably based on a HUGE average of boats, marinas, locations and care taken..... and stats are always suspect in other peoples hands, especially where agendas come to pkay.

But I woukd say for the average clueless boater, they are better off gaving their boat pulled, than them figuring out where to go and how to secure everything in the water.

Turn the tabkes to a pretty resourceful skipper with a good forecast and numerous possible hurricane holes...that can certainly be a huge difference.

I haven't seen such statistics but think they'd be of little overall benefit. If the choices were having a boat pulled at Jarrett Bay vs. a fixed dock exposed on the outer banks, then Jarrett Bay is the choice. On the other hand if the choice is a floating dock well up the New River in Fort Lauderdale vs. having a boat quickly pulled and stacked wall to wall with other boats on an exposed lot with no tie downs or other protection, then New River wins every time. The reality is that most have limited choices and have to go for the best among those choices. We have well protected docks in a relatively low risk area and feel comfortable with them. We also have no real options for pulling the boats in a safe, professional way.

Some people think moving the boat out of the track of the storm is the best and only way. For Irma, some of those quickly moved their boats east to the Bahamas and avoided the hurricane. There were also a few who decided to head West to the West Coast of Florida and were then right in the worst track.

There are "the best we know to do" answers, but no absolutely right answers. If one ever needs a reminder of that, just go back and look at Sandy. Who ever thought that NJ and NY were the biggest danger zones and from what I saw, it didn't really matter if the boats were in the water or on land, they weren't prepared either way.

We're part of the largest concentration of boats in the US and one of the largest concentrations in the world. As such, the vast majority of boats where we are will be left in the water as there are really no other choices. However, the marinas here are also, on the whole, the best prepared for hurricanes you will find.

It's all a bit like those magical lines some insurers use saying you must be north of this point. Statistics over time indicate that may be safer but when examined it's definitely not 100% safe vs 100% unsafe. It's more like a nuance of safety and perhaps a few percentage points safer when analyzed. Then, one storm can blow all the recent stats out of the water and suddenly you're looking at a very different picture, even though that storm was a 100 year storm.

I would imagine size and shape of a vessel also factors in. Big difference between a sailboat with a 4' tall keel and a single level go fast with the props all but touching the ground.

Don't think the issue is cut and dry. The marina or the boatyard is likely a bigger factor in your success or failure than in the water or out. If limited to displacement speeds, I would opt out of higher risk areas for hurricane season. There are no guarantees, but reducing the average risk seems logical.

Ted

Dry must be better because Boat/US will pay for part of a haul if you store ashore.

I don't think the stats would be very meaningful anyway. A storm comes, water level rises and lifts docks off their pilings, and everyone concludes storage on land is better. Meanwhile, everyone starts building docks with higher pilings so that doesn't happen again. Then another storm comes along and water rises, and a bunch of boats on land get washed into a big pile. Now storage on land is bad compared to in-water. So I expect it's all much more about the specifics of a location than about statistics. But try telling an insurance company that

Comodave said:

Dry must be better because Boat/US will pay for part of a haul if you store ashore.

Click to expand...

Fair number of boats were lost during Sandy when the tide surges floated them off their jack stands. Again, a great deal depends on the facilities.

Ted

O C Diver said:

I would imagine size and shape of a vessel also factors in. Big difference between a sailboat with a 4' tall keel and a single level go fast with the props all but touching the ground.

Click to expand...

From Irma, sailboats in the Miami area fared far worse than powerboats. Perhaps better preparation would have saved some, but a lot were just toppled in their slip. A lot also broke loose, whether anchored or docked and caused considerable damage from that point.

Now, on that same note, I observed a lot of damage in Rockport and south Texas. There were a lot of boats stored in high and dry outdoor racks that just collapsed, a bit like a game of Jenga. There were also a lot of boats on land that were just lined up side to side and one boat toppled and the others did like dominoes. Monohull sailboats just sitting on land but not adequately tied were clearly going to topple.

On the whole, powerboats fared better than sailboats both on land and in the water. Much of that could have been prevented though with better preparation.

Check Boat/US website and look at hurricane prep. They cite a study by MIT that shows boats ashore suffer less damage.

If I owned a fixed keel sailboat, no way I'd be on land without tie downs. Saw several in sailboat cradles that were knocked over by tropical storm force winds.

My preference would be in a protected bay or basin either at anchor or on a Mooring. If I were in SWFL tieing between two sets of dolphins on the Caloosahatchee river might be an option.

Ted

O C Diver said:

If I owned a fixed keel sailboat, no way I'd be on land without tie downs. Saw several in sailboat cradles that were knocked over by tropical storm force winds.

My preference would be in a protected bay or basin either at anchor or on a Mooring. If I were in SWFL tieing between two sets of dolphins on the Caloosahatchee river might be an option.

Ted

Click to expand...

I saw a lot of sailboats on land as you described but also a large number in the water not secured against blowing over.

"Caloosahatchee river might be an option."

At our Hurricane Hole no boats were damaged at the last blow.

Location ,Location,Location is the key.

I had ACE insurance on my Hatteras and they too paid a portion of the cost to haul and block in a named storm. So there's at least two very big insurers that pay money to have boats pulled, there's your statistic right there.

The yard I used, the aforementioned Jarrett Bay, did an outstanding job. Thing was you had to pay "protection money" (which the insurer did not cover) to be guaranteed a spot. However, that program was worth it as they communicated and coordinated very well, including having a spot for commercial and liveaboards if they so chose to be " last out, first back in" if you so chose.

caltexflanc said:

I had ACE insurance on my Hatteras and they too paid a portion of the cost to haul and block in a named storm. So there's at least two very big insurers that pay money to have boats pulled, there's your statistic right there.

The yard I used, the aforementioned Jarrett Bay, did an outstanding job. Thing was you had to pay "protection money" (which the insurer did not cover) to be guaranteed a spot. However, that program was worth it as they communicated and coordinated very well, including having a spot for commercial and liveaboards if they so chose to be " last out, first back in" if you so chose.

Click to expand...

The problem is there is only one Jarrett Bay. There is Bennett Brothers in Wilmington which is decent. Then that's it. So, we're talking about quality storage facilities but not enough to even make a dent in the total boats. If I lived in NC, I'd have the Jarrett Bay deal too.

O C Diver said:

Fair number of boats were lost during Sandy when the tide surges floated them off their jack stands. Again, a great deal depends on the facilities.

Ted

Click to expand...

There was a dry stack facility in Pass Christian, Mississippi that had over half of it's boats washed out of their racks by Katrina! Up to about the fourth level!

Group9 said:

There was a dry stack facility in Pass Christian, Mississippi that had over half of it's boats washed out of their racks by Katrina! Up to about the fourth level!

Click to expand...

One in Rockport tumbled. Now, there are good indoor dry stack facilities well above flood elevation and able to withstand 150 mph winds. I saw a lot of boats after Harvey where it was clear that someone thought getting them on land was smart, but there was very little thought as to what to do with them on land. There are marinas not equipped properly in the water for storms and yards not adequately prepared to protect boats in storms.

BandB said:

The problem is there is only one Jarrett Bay. There is Bennett Brothers in Wilmington which is decent. Then that's it. So, we're talking about quality storage facilities but not enough to even make a dent in the total boats. If I lived in NC, I'd have the Jarrett Bay deal too.

Click to expand...

Not really. True World does a very good job too. I wouldn't hesitate to use them, I had my boat pulled there once for work and once for a survey and liked them a lot. Wayfarer's Cove in Minnesott Beach is very good but their lift wasn't big enough for us. They are also very protected.

So does Bock to a degree. I know plenty of folks happy with them for this purpose.

For smaller boats, I have friends who are happy with Town Creek, though I think their blocking looked skimpy. Also

I'm having brain freeze (Ski would know) but further towards Wilmington, too far for us, there are some guys in Hampstead who have a pretty good rep, Anchors Away I think.

Further north you have the big yards in Wanchese, all very capable, though very exposed.

I'm just talking hurricane hauls here.

You can an awful lot of boats into Jarrett Bay though:



I hate hurricanes! Especially as a liveaboard, you have to empty out the fridges, and up end your whole home.

BandB said:

One in Rockport tumbled. Now, there are good indoor dry stack facilities well above flood elevation and able to withstand 150 mph winds. I saw a lot of boats after Harvey where it was clear that someone thought getting them on land was smart, but there was very little thought as to what to do with them on land. There are marinas not equipped properly in the water for storms and yards not adequately prepared to protect boats in storms.

Click to expand...

I know it's not really valid to throw in Katrina. Nothing survives that kind of storm surge, other than by freak luck.

Group9 said:

I know it's not really valid to throw in Katrina. Nothing survives that kind of storm surge, other than by freak luck.

Click to expand...

You do if you're floating and your pilings are tall enough.

caltexflanc said:

Not really. True World does a very good job too. I wouldn't hesitate to use them, I had my boat pulled there once for work and once for a survey and liked them a lot. Wayfarer's Cove in Minnesott Beach is very good but their lift wasn't big enough for us. They are also very protected.

So does Bock to a degree. I know plenty of folks happy with them for this purpose.

For smaller boats, I have friends who are happy with Town Creek, though I think their blocking looked skimpy. Also

I'm having brain freeze (Ski would know) but further towards Wilmington, too far for us, there are some guys in Hampstead who have a pretty good rep, Anchors Away I think.

Further north you have the big yards in Wanchese, all very capable, though very exposed.

I'm just talking hurricane hauls here.

You can an awful lot of boats into Jarrett Bay though:

Click to expand...

To my knowledge most of the others just put the boat on dry land but they do not have the tie down set ups Jarrett Bay has. I don't know anyone between us and Wilmington with it. I've seen two many yards post hurricane when they just hauled and blocked. Still perhaps better than a non-hurricane worthy marina, but not the ideal answer. Wouldn't take them over a good hurricane built marina.

BandB said:

To my knowledge most of the others just put the boat on dry land but they do not have the tie down set ups Jarrett Bay has. I don't know anyone between us and Wilmington with it.

Click to expand...

River Forest Yatching Centers

One is west of Stuart and the other is west of Moore Haven.

Ted

O C Diver said:

River Forest Yatching Centers

One is west of Stuart and the other is west of Moore Haven.

Ted

Click to expand...

Their service is popular, but to my knowledge is built on location, not on the type tie down systems Jarrett Bay has. Limited to 82 tons but that works for most here. I don't personally know how they stand relative to Okeechobee flooding but seems they're in good protected shape.

Their wet storage is also protected so with them it's as much a matter of location as it is in our out.

BandB said:

Their service is popular, but to my knowledge is built on location, not on the type tie down systems Jarrett Bay has. Limited to 82 tons but that works for most here. I don't personally know how they stand relative to Okeechobee flooding but seems they're in good protected shape.

Click to expand...

I would imagine the Stuart location would be pretty ideal. I would guess it's 10'+ above the river and about a mile above the St. Lucie lock and spillway. Not familiar with Jarrett bay's tie down system, but if properly blocked and tied down on the River Forest concrete yard, a boat isn't likely going anywhere until the wind breaks the boat apart.

Ted

I think it comes down to "fetch" and elevation. I have seen yards with a clean exposure to wind in some direction and when storm winds line up with that direction, boats get beat badly and can get knocked off the stands. Same with docks. Get some surge and wind with a clean shot in some direction with fetch and things are going to get BEAT.

But there are yards and docks that are protected from wind and you can cook on the Weber in the middle of the storm!!

Elevation of the yard matters as demonstrated in Sandy. Surge floated boats off stands or scoured soil from around boatstands. Want the yard at least a few feet above worst case surge elevation.

Rain runoff can scour around stands too, seen that. Look at topography of yard, don't want to be in a valley.

BandB said:

You do if you're floating and your pilings are tall enough.

Click to expand...

Our dock is a mile from the gulf and we got 23 feet. So with floating docks, how high do my pilings need to be for that? The marina we keep our boat at now got 37 feet, not counting surge. What, 45-50 feet there, you think?

Group9 said:

Our dock is a mile from the gulf and we got 23 feet. So with floating docks, how high do my pilings need to be for that? The marina we keep our boat at now got 37 feet, not counting surge. What, 45-50 feet there, you think?

Click to expand...

It is all dependent on the area. I'd say 2' greater than the greatest surge they've ever had or at least their 100 year mark. It may be 8', it may be 20'. We're in an area of very little surge over it's history. NOAA has some surge maps. Also, FEMA has established flood zones and those have historical floods.

BandB said:

It is all dependent on the area. I'd say 2' greater than the greatest surge they've ever had or at least their 100 year mark. It may be 8', it may be 20'. We're in an area of very little surge over it's history. NOAA has some surge maps. Also, FEMA has established flood zones and those have historical floods.

Click to expand...

I guess its hard to actually picture it if you haven't seen it, and the aftermath.

Group9 said:

I guess its hard to actually picture it if you haven't seen it, and the aftermath.

Click to expand...

It can be. I can picture as I've seen post-Harvey, Irma, Matthew in person and others second hand. However, to go with those pictures I've accessed a lot of date for the area I live plus looked carefully at the marinas. For us, gathering the information is important both for boats and our home. I think in some ways the fact we were knew to South Florida in 2012 so we did investigate. Living on the water we did want to know our risk of flooding.

Then after a hurricane, we looked. We examined the marinas from Palm Beach to Key West to understand what happened and why in each area. It isn't luck when one marina is fine and the one beside it destroyed. We also went to South Texas and while there looked at boats on land and in the water.

I would encourage everyone to know their area very well and know their options. You face decisions when a storm approaches and that's not the time to start gathering information. Do we stay or leave? What is the evacuation zone and are there laws on evacuation? What has happened in the past? To what standards is your home built? What about the marina where your boat is stored? How high are the pilings and how much surge from past storms? How is it attached to the shore and how strongly? What about previous storms? What is the risk of flying objects? What about other boats at the marina, does the marina insist they're properly tied? What about other boats? (one West Palm marina had damage from boats anchored and across the shore and a Miami marina had damage from anchored boats).

Then understand you just make your best decision. You can do everything right and still lose. Hopcar is an unfortunate example of that. The right decision for someone 100 miles up or down the shore might not be for you. The right decision for a 40' boat and a 50' boat may be different. River Forest is an option up to a certain size but a lot of boats in South Florida they aren't.

You also learn things from every storm if you look carefully. Look around and see what went wrong. I saw only a couple of things after Irma that made no sense at first look. They were in areas of tornado type activity so things like a boat ripped away from the dock as the pilings pulled loose in an area that overall had no damage. In that same general area when we drove around the streets we would just occasionally come across one home in an otherwise undamaged block with it's roof or side ripped off or other serious damage.

Hurricanes are a part of our life so we've done what we can to know their history and possible impact on us.

I think it could be worthwhile to post some experiences on this site of those who have a history in various hurricane areas. Anecdotal.