Punta Gorda Seawalls

I’ve noticed that several Trawler Forum folks live in Punta Gorda.
My friends Darrell and Cindy own a home there so I visit several times a year.

Darrell’s seawall was damaged in this last hurricane. The silly thing is that it didn’t fall over, it just sank straight down about a foot. His dock was fastened to the seawall and now at least one of the pilings under it is broken. The shore side of the dock is now about a foot lower than the outer edge.

I understand there were a lot of seawalls damaged. I heard 18 miles.

Any of the other TF folks lose a seawall? How did it fail?

Interesting you should mention this because I am heading to PG on Sunday to look at some condos. It is my understanding that the city maintains the sea walls in Punta Gorda Isles the big canal front development just south of Fishermen's Village. Kind of like a developer deeding the roads in his development to the city so they will maintain them.

If the sea wall dropped more or less straight down, then it probably was undermined by wave action which washed out the soil underneath so it dropped. Or it wasn't built right in the first place with deep enough footings.

I understand that the water level dropped precipitously after the eye passed in the last hurricane. That might have been what let the waves work on the base of the sea wall.

David

I would be interested in hearing who is the owner and responsible for them as well. If it is the city and 18 miles are damaged, I'd bet some are going to wait a very long time. I wonder how the canals are as well. I know generally that's a city responsibility but it takes years to get through all of them. I also wonder if all the seawalls were affected the same way or some one way and some other ways.

Anxious to hear from those who are there.

I have one acquaintance with a damaged dock in Pompano and getting it replaced won't be nearly as hard as getting the permit approved. Apparently they haven't done it correctly and each delay is for another month until the committee or board meets. Pompano is the leader in red tape and delays it seems.

Not punta Gorda, but in my dad's neighborhood in fort Myers the homeowner is responsible. And repair is very expensive, quotes are $1,000 a linear foot. Insurance doesn't cover it.

Dougcole said:

Not punta Gorda, but in my dad's neighborhood in fort Myers the homeowner is responsible. And repair is very expensive, quotes are $1,000 a linear foot. Insurance doesn't cover it.

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I know insurance doesn't cover and they're not cheap, but the $1,000 per linear foot sounds like an opportunist trying to jump in. I just don't believe a 100' lot would cost $100,000 to repair or build a seawall.

People charge what the market will bear, how pricing allocates scarce resources.

Wait a couple years and prices should be back to normal

The problem was caused by Irma. As I understand it the heavy rain got down behind the seawalls causing them to push out at the inside bottom and then the yard falling in behind.

The city tries to stay on top of any holes developing in the yards behind the sea walls and will send a crew out to fill the hole. Irma was just too much.

The city replaced half of my seawall 5 years ago because it was sloughing out at the bottom. The other half was pretty old and it failed during Irma taking half the back yard with it into the canal.

It is going to all be fixed but it will be a long time.

Luckily we sold the house last year and moved to a condo in PGI so no worry for us.

In Fort Lauderdale, the responsibility is 100% the homeowner. You may be cited if the seawall needs repair and you have 60 days to begin to address the problem, 365 days to rectify it. Heights have become an issue recently with new walls required to be 3.9' NAVD88 and a lot of talk about 5.6'. Some have to be higher already. Ours is based on location and previous flood plain, even though current flood plain wouldn't require as high.

The rising waters have caused concern over height with new rules targeting 2035.

The higher walls do get very expensive. The reason is that in adding height, the entire construction has to be beefed up for support. So, it's not a proportionate increase but much more.

There was another issue from what I heard by some on the west coast with damaged seawalls. It was whether FEMA would assist or not. To consider it, FEMA required a statement from your insurer that they would not pay. However, I never heard whether homeowners got assistance or not.

A friend of mine lost 100' of seawall in Cape Coral. Before the hurricane sea wall repairs were in the $150-200/foot. After it is $800/foot. Only city approved contractors allowed to do the work and only 3 contractors are approved. Sounds like the fix is in in that town. If it were me I would do my own environmentally friendly rip rap or gabion basket wall for much less money.
I would bet there would be permit issues with the city.

I forgot one very important point in my post above...# 7 and was reminded by B&B's where he mentions high water.

It was the extreme low water that exacerbated the problem in Irma. The high winds pushed all the water off shore and the canals went virtually dry which removed the pressure of the water that holds the seawall in place at the bottom. When the older seawalls were installed they not were required to be driven as deep as the newer ones are.

Many of the canals were at the lowest water level remembered and you could walk out on the harbor in front of my condo for several hundred feet and not step in water.

seasalt007 said:

I forgot one very important point in my post above...# 7 and was reminded by B&B's where he mentions high water.

It was the extreme low water that exacerbated the problem in Irma. The high winds pushed all the water off shore and the canals went virtually dry which removed the pressure of the water that holds the seawall in place at the bottom. When the older seawalls were installed they not were required to be driven as deep as the newer ones are.

Many of the canals were at the lowest water level remembered and you could walk out on the harbor in front of my condo for several hundred feet and not step in water.

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Did the newer ones that were driven deeper survive?

BandB said:

Did the newer ones that were driven deeper survive?

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As I understand it they had a significantly higher survival rate.

BandB said:

I know insurance doesn't cover and they're not cheap, but the $1,000 per linear foot sounds like an opportunist trying to jump in. I just don't believe a 100' lot would cost $100,000 to repair or build a seawall.

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Quite possible that you are correct, I got that info from my dad, who is elderly, and sometimes makes mistakes. It sounded really high to me as well, but I'm no expert on seawall construction.

On the other hand, this came from his next door neighbor who lost his seawall in Irma, they are very close and talk every day, so I doubt it is very far off. My dad has almost 200' of seawall at his home, the house I grew up in. The seawall there is 50 years old, and my dad is concerned that when he passes the house on to my brothers and me that he will be giving us a huge expense.

The $800 a foot for Cape Coral could apply to Ft. Myers as well, since they are in the same county and there just aren't that many places that do seawall work, it's kind of a specialized business.

Any way you look at it, it's a huge expense.

Glad I don’t live there. Neighbor replaced his seawall 2 years ago at $125 per foot.

I live on the south end of Pine Island and ended up with a horizontal crack
along the bottom of my seawall due to the water pressure on the back side
of the wall and now it is buckling out along the crack.

The water left the canal faster then the water could seep out from behind the wall.
We have 50' of seawall and we were quoted $29,000 and change to replace
it. Hopefully I can hold off the repair until the prices drop.

Dougcole said:

Quite possible that you are correct, I got that info from my dad, who is elderly, and sometimes makes mistakes. It sounded really high to me as well, but I'm no expert on seawall construction.

On the other hand, this came from his next door neighbor who lost his seawall in Irma, they are very close and talk every day, so I doubt it is very far off. My dad has almost 200' of seawall at his home, the house I grew up in. The seawall there is 50 years old, and my dad is concerned that when he passes the house on to my brothers and me that he will be giving us a huge expense.

The $800 a foot for Cape Coral could apply to Ft. Myers as well, since they are in the same county and there just aren't that many places that do seawall work, it's kind of a specialized business.

Any way you look at it, it's a huge expense.

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I don't doubt some are quoting those rates. I do think they're extremely high unless there's something complicating the work. I would expect $500 or so to be the upper end of pricing in normal circumstances. With the amount of seawall we have, I don't even want to think of $1000 rates.

I was amazed during the hurricane watching all the water swept out and anticipated some damage from it but not of the nature apparently that has occurred.

The people living in Punta Gorda Isles pay a tax yearly for seawall maintenance so they wont be paying for the repairs. Actually I heard that the city had not kept enough money to do all the repairs and FEMA is giving the city money. I guess we are all paying for the repairs.


Those people in PGI who lost docks along with their seawall will have to pay to replace their docks.

HopCar said:

The people living in Punta Gorda Isles pay a tax yearly for seawall maintenance so they wont be paying for the repairs. Actually I heard that the city had not kept enough money to do all the repairs and FEMA is giving the city money. I guess we are all paying for the repairs.


Those people in PGI who lost docks along with their seawall will have to pay to replace their docks.

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Not surprising that the city doesn't have enough set aside to pay. I'm not sure they should have anticipated anything like this storm and the seawall damage it had. Now, how much from FEMA and when they'll see that money are always questions to be answered.

Interesting reading about the seawalls. Not trying to be a vulture, but my cousin here in Texas owns a seawall building company. He has done it for years and has a great reputation. I’m wondering if it’s worth it to him to have a separate crew in PG or wherever, or does Florida have enough contractors? With those prices it sounds like not enough contractors, or maybe just some gouging going on. Here he charges around $250 per linear foot for wood seawalls (depending on the job complexity obviously) so maybe he could make some money and still be the low bidder.

No doubt at all, if anything he'd be a bit late to the party but I'm sure demand and pricing will stay high for at least a year in hard-hit places.

cardude01 said:

Interesting reading about the seawalls. Not trying to be a vulture, but my cousin here in Texas owns a seawall building company. He has done it for years and has a great reputation. I’m wondering if it’s worth it to him to have a separate crew in PG or wherever, or does Florida have enough contractors? With those prices it sounds like not enough contractors, or maybe just some gouging going on. Here he charges around $250 per linear foot for wood seawalls (depending on the job complexity obviously) so maybe he could make some money and still be the low bidder.

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The city has three contractors working now. Two are local and one from the east coast of Florida. The city went out for bids right after Irma so the job is fully committed.

The seawalls in the PG area are all concrete. I understand that the city took bids and hired three companies. That still leaves a lot of Coast. Maybe he should come over and look around.

If your cousin does docks in addition to bulkheads, there is a lot of work all over Florida. But, I imagine there is a lot of work in Texas too.

Wife and I are going to PG first week of Feb. He is in PG Isles and has sea wall. He'll know what is going on.

HopCar said:

The seawalls in the PG area are all concrete. I understand that the city took bids and hired three companies. That still leaves a lot of Coast. Maybe he should come over and look around.

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That's a great idea. Seawalls all over the coast fell in. There is bound to be a ton of work for someone with the right equipment.

The only comment I have and it is not a negative is that most of our seawalls are prefab concrete panels. The city is making them by the hundreds. So the first thing your guy would need is a dependable supply of these panels that are jet driven in the canal floor. Then a large crawler drag line on a barge to dig out the yard dirt, save it on the barge, and then refill after the seawalls and caps are in place.

I lived 30 years on the League City side of Clear Lake in Texas. Hurricane Alicia caused my wooden seawall to fail and pulled in the yard behind it. Our house was new at the time and on high ground so no damage.

The repair was on my nickle. I hired some migrant workers to manually dig out the sucker rods and deadmen up from the failed wall. Next they dug out all the dirt behind the wall. Then I hired a pile driving company who operated from a crawler crane on a barge. They drove new deadmen about 20' inland. They next drove pilings in the water and constructed a wooden wall between the pilings. Next, the sucker rods were ran from the deadmen to the wall pilings and welded with all thread on each end. When everything was tensioned up I pumped 100 yards of concrete over the top of my house to fill behind the seawall and fill the sucker rod troughs.

The wall still stands to this day.

I hired all the sub contractors and labor which saved me a lot of money.

One of the reasons that I moved to Punta Gorda was not wanting to go through this financial hit again.

He just told me has too much work here in Texas, and he just isn’t greedy enough to go to the trouble to hire crews in Florida. I respect that.

cardude01 said:

He just told me has too much work here in Texas, and he just isn’t greedy enough to go to the trouble to hire crews in Florida. I respect that.

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Probably wise. Plus they would have to be concrete. Not much use of wood recommended in Florida, not for seawalls, docks, or houses.

BandB said:

Probably wise. Plus they would have to be concrete. Not much use of wood recommended in Florida, not for seawalls, docks, or houses.

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Our bulkhead, dock, and house are wood but hell, this is NORTH FL, aka South Georgia....

Forgive me for hijacking this thread for a minute. We are heading down to PG this Sunday to look at condos, a villa and a stand alone house, to use as a snow bird escape from Connecticut.

Having lived in Oriental, NC where our house got water in it from Irene's 9' surge, I am a bit leery of grade level homes. We are concentrating on second level condos as a result.

I understand from our real estate agent, a long term PGI resident, that on average the homes along the canals are about 8' above the water level. That worries me as the same thing could happen in PG as in Oriental: a slow moving hurricane with the right path drives the water level in Charlotte Harbor up to the 9 and 10' level. I think that in some areas in SW Florida the water may have gotten that high during Irma, but because Irma went to the east of Charlotte Harbor the water was driven out, not in.

So what do you guys think: stay away from waterfront grade level homes, or What, me worry?

David

Can someone post a picture of the type of seawall you are discussing? I know when they install seawalls out here they give them a lifetime. So they may install a 30 year seawall or a 25 year seawall, etc.. but its mostly rip rap from what I can tell.