When a Tesla trawler?

For your reading pleasure my TFers fellows

https://electrek.co/2018/01/12/large-tesla-ships-all-electric-barges/

L

Where is the electric power coming from to charge the battery packs? could it be fron fossil fuel powered electric plants?

mramoo said:

Where is the electric power coming from to charge the battery packs? could it be fron fossil fuel powered electric plants?

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Or solar, wind, nuclear, tide turbine, waste burning, methanization of organic waste, various fuelcells, dams, and so on.

L

Can't wait to see these boats in action, I hope it works well for them.
The containerised battery pack is a great idea, charged by renewable energy sources this will be a fantastic transport system.

mramoo said:

Where is the electric power coming from to charge the battery packs? could it be fron fossil fuel powered electric plants?

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It could be, although fossil fuel power stations are becoming a more of a rare commodity all the time in developed countries. The US may be the exception.

AusCan said:

It could be, although fossil fuel power stations are becoming a more of a rare commodity all the time in developed countries. The US may be the exception.

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About 85% of Australia's power is generated by fossil fuels. Coal provides 73 and oil/natural gas 12%. Coal is the base load with natural gas used for peaking.

Hydro power provides about the same % as wind and solar combined in Australia. The coal fired plants could slowly be converted to natural gas, a move that requires combatting "NIMBY" types, expensive pipelines and/or LNG plants and transportation depots.

There is unfortunately much resistance to building or modifying power plants and infrastructure that could replace coal. The world's coal supplies are cheap and long lived. Australia is a major coal producer for worldwide power generation. China, India, Europe and Russia rely heavily on coal. This will not change soon.

Lou_tribal said:

For your reading pleasure my TFers fellows

https://electrek.co/2018/01/12/large-tesla-ships-all-electric-barges/

L

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I think this is a great first step. Being a small country with an extensive canal system, intercity electric barges can definitely work. With the batteries in one of the containers, they can be easily swapped out when the other containers are removed.

Electric boating can exist now but only in a very limited way. Like plugging in at marinas and paying for electrons instead of fuel when you’re in range of the next marina.

A better question is “Why a Tesla trawler”. When it becomes more pleasurable and practical is the answer. Right now it mostly exists because it’s vogue and/or popular. When when it comes out of the fad box and becomes regular stuff and not new stuff it will be justifiable on its own objective merrits and not part of a social thing ... that’s when we’ll see Tesla boats. But now the Tesla is very much a fad. Not say’in it’s going to fade away (like most fads) but it exists as on popularity, not practicality.

sunchaser said:

About 85% of Australia's power is generated by fossil fuels. Coal provides 73 and oil/natural gas 12%. Coal is the base load with natural gas used for peaking.

Hydro power provides about the same % as wind and solar combined in Australia. The coal fired plants could slowly be converted to natural gas, a move that requires combatting "NIMBY" types, expensive pipelines and/or LNG plants and transportation depots.

There is unfortunately much resistance to building or modifying power plants and infrastructure that could replace coal. The world's coal supplies are cheap and long lived. Australia is a major coal producer for worldwide power generation. China, India, Europe and Russia rely heavily on coal. This will not change soon.

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Tom, your numbers are old, but your point is still valid.

In Australia in 2015, power generation was 32% coal, 38% oil, 24% gas, and 5.8% renewables. 2/3 of the renewables are Biomass, with the remaining being PV, wind, and hydro.

So while Australia has the benevolent climate for both solar and wind and is arguably the world leader, only 1.32% of it's energy is solar or wind. But that is over three times the world average.

In the world today, electric generation of hydro and PV combined, to the nearest whole number percentage is 0.

Yup, 99.6% of energy produced in the world is NOT solar or wind generated.

I'm not against renewables, by any means, it's just that power generation and consumption should be put in to context.

Northern Spy said:

In the world today, electric generation of hydro and PV combined, to the nearest whole number percentage is 0.

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Here it is 99%

L

Lou_tribal said:

Here it is 99%

L

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I live in BC.? Oodles of hydro too.

However, I work in Alberta at a plant that makes a fair percentage of the grids electricity as a byproduct. The main purpose is to make steam to inject into the ground.

As far as the Tesla barge goes, it will find it's niche and be purposeful, or not.

There is a sailboat in my marina that was converted to full electrical power. Made the rounds in the trade magazines. Sat for two years and was for sale for a fraction of the install price.

Just wasn't that practical in the end.

Electric boating does exist now, its just in the sailing community.

In the article reference in the OP, there is also a link to Sweden building two new ferries. The two ferries will be 238 meters long (780 ft) and weight 8,414 tonnes. There will be 4 MWh (“640 batteries of 6.5 kWh) of battery packs inside each ship. The key is the ferries will travel relatively short distances and be able to charge during the loading/unloading process.

Jim

P.s. I find it interesting that "Tesla" is getting used as a generic term for an electric vehicle.

Northern Spy said:

Tom, your numbers are old, but your point is still valid.

In Australia in 2015, power generation was 32% coal, 38% oil, 24% gas, and 5.8% renewables. .

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Mike:
Good points, one thing to get sorted out though is % coal. My trade journal although a few years old "closely" match current data.


According to originenergy.com.au the breakdown for AU electrical generation is:

• Coal --- ----73%
• Gas ---- ----13%
• Hydro -- ----7%
• Wind---- ----4%
• Roof Solar --2%
• Other -------1%

According to the AER government website there are similar numbers:

• Black Coal ---- 55%
• Brown Coal --- 22%
• Gas ------------ 9%
• Hydro ---------- 8%
• Wind ------------5%
• Other ------------!%

It would be interesting to assess the numbers. Possibly yours reflect
cars, trucks, buses ships etc.

In the US most Rail Roads are diesel electric, I think that when the technology is coast effective and they (the US Rail Roads) convert to battery or battery/solar power we will see trawler that are battery/solar powered

sunchaser said:

Mike:
Good points, one thing to get sorted out though is % coal. My trade journal although a few years old "closely" match current data.





According to originenergy.com.au the breakdown for AU electrical generation is:

• Coal --- ----73%
• Gas ---- ----13%
• Hydro -- ----7%
• Wind---- ----4%
• Roof Solar --2%
• Other -------1%

According to the AER government website there are similar numbers:

• Black Coal ---- 55%
• Brown Coal --- 22%
• Gas ------------ 9%
• Hydro ---------- 8%
• Wind ------------5%
• Other ------------!%

It would be interesting to assess the numbers. Possibly yours reflect
cars, trucks, buses ships etc.

Click to expand...

I got mine from the Australian government.

https://www.industry.gov.au/Office-...nts/aes/2016-australian-energy-statistics.pdf

Pura Vida said:

In the US most Rail Roads are diesel electric,

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Seen some Megayachts with that technology. Intriguing. Put the charging diesels anywhere that design and weight distribution requires..

I know nothing when it comes to propulsion, but isn’t one of the advantages of a diesel/electric system is the high torque available in an electric engine? I would think that would be one reason the railroads use them. For our boats, torque really isn’t much of an issue.

Northern Spy said:

I got mine from the Australian government.

https://www.industry.gov.au/Office-...nts/aes/2016-australian-energy-statistics.pdf

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Table 4.1 in this report agrees with the fuel source electrical plant production data in my thread 13.

Your thread 9, based on Table 3.1, shows total AU energy consumption, which includes transportation. Transportation accounts for 40% of AU's energy consumption.

Interestingly (to me anyway) is that 90% of Australia's black coal (the good stuff) production is exported. This goes to China mainly where it is used in power plants and steel making.

Ahhhhh. Thanks!

The power generation landscape is changing rapidly. The state of South Australia was almost completely dependent on coal fired power stations 20 years ago. They are now all shut down. It is unlikely there will ever be another coal fired power station built in the state.

There are now 17 wind farms with a total capacity of 1789 MW. Another 26 wind farms are under construction or on the drawing board. This will increase the generation capacity by another 2554 MW.

The total capacity of gas fired generation is 2027 MW.

There is currently only one major solar power station operating with a capacity of 100 MW.

By far, the biggest generator of electricity in South Australia is rooftop solar. This is is owned by individual homeowners and businesses, and now accounts for 48% of south Australia power generation.

Is it all a fad? It's not looking that way. Perhaps fossils fuels were a fad, and they've now gone out of style.

AusCan said:

By far, the biggest generator of electricity in South Australia is rooftop solar. This is is owned by individual homeowners and businesses, and now accounts for 48% of south Australia power generation.

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Again, from someone who doesn’t know anything about power production, I have always felt that large scale solar farms aren’t likely to be terribly efficient, but I think point production, at the home or business level, may work really well in some areas.

dhays said:

I know nothing when it comes to propulsion, but isn’t one of the advantages of a diesel/electric system is the high torque available in an electric engine? I would think that would be one reason the railroads use them. For our boats, torque really isn’t much of an issue.

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High torque or low they can lose the diesel part and power the electric traction motors with battery and solar when the $$ and technology are reasonable. They could have battery RR cars that are changed out at regular stops, but at this time diesel electric is the best cost solution. My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet.

AusCan said:

The power generation landscape is changing rapidly. The state of South Australia was almost completely dependent on coal fired power stations 20 years ago. They are now all shut down. It is unlikely there will ever be another coal fired power station built in the state.

There are now 17 wind farms with a total capacity of 1789 MW. Another 26 wind farms are under construction or on the drawing board. This will increase the generation capacity by another 2554 MW.

The total capacity of gas fired generation is 2027 MW.

There is currently only one major solar power station operating with a capacity of 100 MW.

By far, the biggest generator of electricity in South Australia is rooftop solar. This is is owned by individual homeowners and businesses, and now accounts for 48% of south Australia power generation.

Is it all a fad? It's not looking that way. Perhaps fossils fuels were a fad, and they've now gone out of style.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a good plan. I note a gas (fossil fuel) fired power plant is part of the battery storage development. With SA gas fields it should work well. The question as always is - will the rates and government ownership be good enough to attract and keep the big commercial enterprises?

Pura Vida said:

High torque or low they can lose the diesel part and power the electric traction motors with battery and solar when the $$ and technology are reasonable. They could have battery RR cars that are changed out at regular stops, but at this time diesel electric is the best cost solution. My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet.

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I don't think there is any chance to see this happening in my lifetime.

L

Duffy makes a few different models of electric boat. While nice, they are expensive and limited to a few specific applications. They are not a boat that you would cruise fro A to B unless A and B are just across the harbor.

There are some boats that claim to be hybrids and "green". Don't know how they compare to regular propulsion systems.

These folks beat Tesla to that finish line. Just as well since Tesla does not seem able to get its car production on any published schedule. I've seen a few of these in Annapolis.

https://www.greenlinehybrid.si/

Rooftop private solar in Australia is not restricted to South Australia, it is common elsewhere too. The issue is usually economic, how long will it take to repay the cost of the installation by power bill savings. Others may install for non financial related reasons. There is now a move to supplement systems with batteries too, but it is expensive to acquire enough capacity.
I suspect battery storage will work in individual systems, but may not work in commercial providers. We will see how the South Australian Tesla experiment works.
I know not all will agree, but baseload power cannot come reliably from non fossil fuels. There is an attempt to "paint coal as black" (in a way not difficult to do) and as something which must remain in the ground, but when the sun don`t shine and wind don`t blow or blows too much, fossil fuel generation is all we have, apart from some hydro. Strangely, we now have industry installing back up diesel generators to provide power when the grid fails or scarcity forces prices sky high, to me that says we are not providing a certain supply, largely imo due to a philosophical move to renewables,despite having as much if not more fuel to generate supply than anywhere else in the world.
I think the best way the world can limit emissions is by limiting population, but that`s a whole other discussion.

You are right Bruce. Solar and wind need something to back it up. Coal is one option but it is a very poor option with a lot of powerful lobbyists. A new coal fired power station cannot compete with wind and solar power Without big subsidies.

The Tesla battery is a start but much more stored power is required. Stored hydro is a better option. Hydrogen produced from excess wind & solar is also a clean and cost effective solution.

sunchaser said:

Sounds like a good plan. I note a gas (fossil fuel) fired power plant is part of the battery storage development. With SA gas fields it should work well. The question as always is - will the rates and government ownership be good enough to attract and keep the big commercial enterprises?

Click to expand...

There is a major gas shortage in South Australia and the Eastern States, due to over-commitment of long term LNG sales to China, and and less than expected results in coal seam methane production. This has caused the price of natural gas to triple in the last two years. Politicians and oil companies are blaming it on the anti-frac crowd for not allowing fracking in parts of the country, but its due to a much lower gas production than expected in areas where fracking is allowed.


btw - I may sound like an anti oil industry greenie, but I've worked in oil & gas exploration and production for 40 years.

"My point is that we are getting closer all the time but not quite there yet."

Electric boats & cars will be acceptable to the public when the weight and energy of the battery pack is similar to the energy in that weight of diesel fuel..

And can be refilled with the same speed as a gas or diesel fuel tank.