If you dig hard and long enough, you'll see some threads, editorials, opinions that the Great Loop has a lifespan and it may not live longer than a few more years. Various reasons are listed for it's untimely death. Out of curiosity, I wanted to see what some seasoned Loop cruisers thought about this speculation........
Loop Lifespan
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sunchaser
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With a nice trailerable boat up to 32 foot or so all those potential issues disappear. Or just take the St Lawrence seaway. Of course if Illinois' long term financial outlook remains lousy then some work on the Illinois R lock area will have to be accelerated by the Corps.
Since the Erie Canal is largely NY funded, those tax dollars cannot be guaranteed for ongoing dredging and lock maintenance. The Erie is getting ready to celebrate its 200th birthday, quite a run.
Since the Erie Canal is largely NY funded, those tax dollars cannot be guaranteed for ongoing dredging and lock maintenance. The Erie is getting ready to celebrate its 200th birthday, quite a run.
Oddly enough, I believe the environmentalists/sport fishing alliance has increased leverage with the current administration on this topic. Illinois and Chicago politicians had been the major stumbling block in the past. The other States and Canada would like to see the locks closed. So would I. There would likely be a "travel lift"/overland work around...another expense for loopers.
I'm not too knowledgeable in this area so forgive my basic questions. Why close the locks? What' are the benefits and impacts?
You could have the same story of doom and gloom on all sections of the ICW too. It's expensive to maintain waterways. Some are used commercially, some not.
I've heard these predictions since I first got involved. The Chicago to Illinois River threatened by the Asian Carp and thoughts of blocking the river. NY cutting all spending on operating it's canals. All federal spending on the ICW's discontinued. I don't think it's going to happen because these have all become essential parts of the lives of many.
It's a bit like saying we're going to cut out all spending on the arts. Close all national forests as they cost money to operate.
I saw this question and my first thought was wonder how long people have thought this. So, I blindly called a long time looper and expert. He told me decades ago when the first Asian Carp showed up, and ICW and Erie as long as he could remember. I asked if the talk had intensified. He said, in his opinion, it just cycled up and down. Oh, he added one I had forgotten about too. Closing Kentucky Dam and Barkley Lock to keep the Carp out of those lakes.
I personally don't see any of this happening.
I've heard these predictions since I first got involved. The Chicago to Illinois River threatened by the Asian Carp and thoughts of blocking the river. NY cutting all spending on operating it's canals. All federal spending on the ICW's discontinued. I don't think it's going to happen because these have all become essential parts of the lives of many.
It's a bit like saying we're going to cut out all spending on the arts. Close all national forests as they cost money to operate.
I saw this question and my first thought was wonder how long people have thought this. So, I blindly called a long time looper and expert. He told me decades ago when the first Asian Carp showed up, and ICW and Erie as long as he could remember. I asked if the talk had intensified. He said, in his opinion, it just cycled up and down. Oh, he added one I had forgotten about too. Closing Kentucky Dam and Barkley Lock to keep the Carp out of those lakes.
I personally don't see any of this happening.
Yes, long too late. They have had some special fishing tournaments on Kentucky Lake to try to reduce them in the past. The bad news is they're now everywhere from Michigan to Alabama. The not as bad news is that they've not totally taken over as feared.
Guess you don't consider me or anyone else then who doesn't share your opinion to be environmentally conscious when we support other options.
I'm not opening up a debate with you. Sticking to the thread, I don't think it will be closed. Don't know whether you think it will or not, just what you want.
O C Diver
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Unfortunately, closing the locks will likely not prevent the inevitable. Hint: the Asian carp didn't come to the USA through a lock. I support trying to prevent the carp from getting in the Great lakes, but they have already been found in land locked lakes. Preventing trailerable boats and wild birds from unintentionally transporting the eggs will be the far greater challenge.
Ted
As I said in my earlier post, the national politics are tilting toward closure. Pointing to what's happened in other lakes is a crutch to avoid making hard decisions regarding the health of this national wonder. The GLCA is an enemy to the Great Lakes sport and commercial fishing community.
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Scratchnsaw
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The Tombigbee Waterway is relatively new by comparison to the ICW. The funding for that was a big controversy, causing some delays, with reports of shoots fired at private boats after it first opened. People in that area did not like it.
Of course one of the main points of contention was that the waterway would be a huge environmental disaster. So enjoy it as long as you can.
The ICW, which is actually kept open by tugs and barges in the more narrow areas is in a serious state as it relates to the areas around the smaller inlets . Several inlets have been completely closed, with buoys pulled completely out by the coast guard in North Carolina. Sand does not like to stay put, and in most cases when the wind changes, so does the sand and the depths in those regions. During the last eight years, money and equipment was not there to keep them open.
Of course one of the main points of contention was that the waterway would be a huge environmental disaster. So enjoy it as long as you can.
The ICW, which is actually kept open by tugs and barges in the more narrow areas is in a serious state as it relates to the areas around the smaller inlets . Several inlets have been completely closed, with buoys pulled completely out by the coast guard in North Carolina. Sand does not like to stay put, and in most cases when the wind changes, so does the sand and the depths in those regions. During the last eight years, money and equipment was not there to keep them open.
Sailor of Fortune
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The equipment is ALWAYS there to keep them open. The money,not so much.
HeadedToTexas
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As with so many "environmentally conscious" projects, I see the taxpayers and boaters paying a fortune only to discover Asian carp throughout the Great Lakes well before the ink is dry.
If they do close it, I hope they build a Big Chute type railway around the dam.
Scratchnsaw
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Certain type dredges can only work in areas where there is enough water for them. The hopper dredges will not work in the smaller inlets. Its also a massive permitting process for pumping sand, along with a logistical nightmare in the restrictive areas. When sand moves, if you want the inlet opened back up for economic reasons, you can't just go there one day and dredge it by any means.
The state floated a notion that boating registration fees be raised and a portion be used for dredging. Thee boating folks inland balked saying they did not use most of the inlets that needs dredging.
And lets not talk about certain sands that cannot be pumped on certain beaches, even though the fine folks that lives on the beachfront constantly want beach replenishment. Anyway, nuff of the sidebar.
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Benthic2
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Every time it comes up, the Supreme Court seems to feel that the benefits of keeping the waterway open outway the benefits of closing it. I can't see that sentiment changing with the current administration.
I don't understand the reaction to the Asian Carp situation. We change the eco-system, and then don't like the results. So the knee-jerk reaction is "we have to make more changes !!". Changing things is what caused the problem in the first place. Why don't people see that we need to STOP making changes. We reversed the Chicago River, removed the alligator gar, and intentionally introduced the asian carp.....and now have a problem.
We need to STOP changing things and deal with what we have.
I don't understand the reaction to the Asian Carp situation. We change the eco-system, and then don't like the results. So the knee-jerk reaction is "we have to make more changes !!". Changing things is what caused the problem in the first place. Why don't people see that we need to STOP making changes. We reversed the Chicago River, removed the alligator gar, and intentionally introduced the asian carp.....and now have a problem.
We need to STOP changing things and deal with what we have.
FF
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"What other fool proof options?"
Fool proof is impossible , even with skilled folks and unlimited cash.
Ask the Challenger crew,
Reality is "stuff happens" , so its best to have a plan B
Fool proof is impossible , even with skilled folks and unlimited cash.
Ask the Challenger crew,
Reality is "stuff happens" , so its best to have a plan B
O C Diver
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These are two different issues. The ICW continues to operate and dredging is still done. The inlets that have been abandoned were deemed unnecessary and too costly to maintain. I run my charter boat out of Hatteras NC for a week each year. Between the back channel and inlet dredging, it was deemed too costly to maintain for the amount of boating traffic. It was determined that having the Ocracoke and the Oregon inlets were sufficient. While I would like them to maintain the Hatteras inlet, the ICW isn't dependent on maintaining Hatteras inlet or every last inlet along the coast.
Ted
O C Diver
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If it was about a few recreational boats, I would agree with you that they might close the waterway there. This is about commercial traffic and a mandate that the Army Corps of Engineers has to maintain that waterway. States are powerless against this as it's mandated by the federal government. It will take an act of Congress to change it. More likely the Corps will propose another form of fish barrier to block the carp.
Ted
Scratchnsaw
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My first experience and trip down the ICW along the east coast was in 1971. Since then hundreds of trips have taken place, witnessing the changes that's taken place. Since then the build up that's taken place can be likened to going from a farm in Iowa to a New York City style population and development. But the inlet flow of water, especially in the narrower inlets do change the depths, and is I part dependent upon weather conditions such as hurricanes and big blows from the south.
This will change the ICW in and around the smaller inlets. Heck the Beaufort Inlet which is a ship's channel is barely stable now, even after about six years of numerous attempts with a variety of dredging as a result of 400 yards of the sandy banks moving after being destroyed from a hurricane.
But anyway with the development this has brought with it boats, massive amounts of them. Tackle stores, marinas, drystacks and fuel provides local revenue for the infrastructure to be maintained. Whether the Corp of Engineers is responsible for maintaining the inlets, the smaller inlets are key to this portion of the economy in a similar manner as all of those tugs and barges that has plowed the ditch for all of those years.
North Carolina is unique in a way with all of the sand that constantly moves about. After hurricanes, you should know that inlets open and close, even along the OBX. Many moons ago Topsail Inlet changed to a New Topsail and Old Topssil. So this is not a new thing that's happening
So what does this all have to do with dredging and the likes? Well picking winners and loosers is a bit political. We have witnessed this just in the past three plus years IIRC with the state's attempts to pay for the dredging with increased revenues from the boat registration.
The loudest voices was up state, even with many of the same people that lives upstate having second homes and boats along the beachfront areas. They screamed to high heavens about paying the added fees and spending those funds for the saltwater inlets.
Is there enough money to dredge on the state level? No matter when the general population agrees to bare the blunt of paying for the ongoing needs of the boating industry, in the same manner as when the fishing licenses was enacted, the dock side scuttle butt talking points is the beaurcrats have always found funds for new twin engine boats and new trucks each year or two to tow them without a problem.
I will add that serious improvements of boat ramps have taken place though for trailer queens all along the tributaries of the coastal areas, though. So there was good that came out of added costs.
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sunchaser
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It seems a tough task to fight billions of years of weather and natural coastal subsidence for the sake of developers and recreational boaters. This reality is not lost on other parts of the country fighting for Corps funds. There is little sympathy towards the ICW by a Missouri Congressman who is arguing for his own district's Mississippi River dredging and lock money.
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Scratchnsaw
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While I agree with you in principle, the economy is a culmination of a lot of working parts. The ICW moves some of the similar products as the Miss. River does, certainly in the mass amounts of products like grain. But oil and gas flows in the ICW along with numerous working parts for the military. So its vital to keep it open.
Of course the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Expenditures are pork projects if you are only looking five feet in front of you if they do not directly impact you directly. But like the Tombigbee Waterway, if you build it they will come, which applies to any and all coastal regions and the over development of the areas.
So the infrastructure, including the waterways and inlets demands more funds than they did back in the 1970s when I was first exposed to it directly. But I also recognize their are priorities in other regions, such as dealing with the impact of the Asian Carp. Nothing stays the same except CHANGE.
I think an "environmentally conscious boater" would sell his/her boat and take up golf or knitting. A person who calls himself "environmentally conscious" wouldn't be buying a boat made from petroleum, filling it up with gas or diesel and then burning the fossil fuel going places he/she doesn't need to go and back at 3 miles per gallon.
The Corps of Engineers was under Obama's thumb, which is why Illinois and Chicago (his home) were able to influence this threat to all of the Great Lakes. The route taken by the Corps has always been about politics and votes. Destroying the ecology of the Great Lakes is a hot topic in that part of the world and it will resonate throughout the country. Canada is already in the "close the locks" camp. It's a chance for the current leadership to demonstrate their concern for the environment. The only fool proof method to eliminate this particular threat source is to put it back the way nature intended it. Boat wash down following haul out and trailering is taken very seriously within the pleasure and sport/commercial fishing community.
Interesting (not) that there are so many skeptics on TF of all places. One might be left with the impression that completing the loop takes precedence over the environment.
Close the locks and provide a land bridge, or do the eastern portion down to Chicago and return in the clockwise direction. It's the best part anyway. Do something for the environment...support the lock closure. Contact your representatives. (Fat chance).
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These points seem at odds with one another. I could understand if we're talking about 'catch and release' sport fishing. That doesn't apply to most sport fishing and not to commercial fishing at all.
I'm going to guess you like to fish?
