43 Defever flips and sinks on Ten-Tom waterway

Sounds like a freak accident:

http://bobduthie.wordpress.com/2011/10/04/boating-accident/

Sad story.

Now

Who pays who or who suits who?

Pardon for my ignorance!

Sounds to me like the tug was doing what tugs do. I would imagine that the weekenders are going to get it. The bill that is.

Very interesting to me that they were towing their dinghy, which allowed them to get in it even though the boat flipped almost instantly and sank in some five minutes. Imagine how useful the dinghy would have been if it had been carried on the boat deck as illustrated in the photo accompanying the article.

I have related before my encounter with an experienced blue and coastal water boater who told me that he has ALWAYS towed his dinghy for this very reason after having to abandon a boat rapidly because of a fire. He said that, in his opinion, carrying a dinghy on a cabin top or in any manner that requires more than a minute or two to launch it is a dangerous thing to do. Towing, he felt, is best. Second best is on a swimstep or transom mount that allows the dinghy to be lowered or cut free into the water in moments. But anything requiring the use of a boom, crane, power davit, etc. he said is a ticket to disaster in a fast-developing situation, particularly in rough water.

This river accident confirms--- in my opinion--- his position.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 5th of October 2011 05:54:30 PM

Regarding towing as the ultimate safety concept, during my 50+ years of boating, I have seen a number of fires and sinkings where the crew has always been able to get into the dingy/work boat regardless of whether it was towed/tipped or stowed.* Maybe they were just lucky.

On the other hand, I have seen 3 instances of boats being towed that have capsized in rough water, which imperiled the larger boat.* In one of those instances,*the towline*disabled the larger boat, which caused the crew to have to stay on the larger boat, and the boat to nearly be lost on the rocks.

It is hard for me to see towing as the ultimate*solution, as there are just too many variables.**The best ways to mitigate risk are probably:* To be a good boathandler/navigator, keep a good lookout,*have good equipment and a robust maintenance program, and a strong desire to not confront rough conditions, if possible.* The blue water sailor cannot always escape from the last one.

Jay N wrote:


Regarding towing as the ultimate safety concept, during my 50+ years of boating, I have seen a number of fires and sinkings where the crew has always been able to get into the dingy/work boat regardless of whether it was towed/tipped or stowed.* Maybe they were just lucky.

On the other hand, I have seen 3 instances of boats being towed that have capsized in rough water, which imperiled the larger boat.* In one of those instances,*the towline*disabled the larger boat, which caused the crew to have to stay on the larger boat, and the boat to nearly be lost on the rocks.

It is hard for me to see towing as the ultimate*solution, as there are just too many variables.**The best ways to mitigate risk are probably:* To be a good boathandler/navigator, keep a good lookout,*have good equipment and a robust maintenance program, and a strong desire to not confront rough conditions, if possible.* The blue water sailor cannot always escape from the last one.

Click to expand...

We have made the decision to both have a dinghy on deck and a self deploying life raft in a deck canister. An expensive compromise?

"We have made the decision to both have a dinghy on deck and a self deploying life raft in a deck canister. An expensive compromise?"



Probably a good solution, and one that more boaters seem to be using.

Then why not stow*both a dinghy and an automobile?

*

I added a 4 man canister offshore life boat before I left Fl. to head for Belize. I hope never to deploy it but then again I hope never to use my insurance policy. BB

Unless you have a way to get out of the water in case of a MOB. I think towing a dink is pure logic.

Boarding ladders are great but how many people have them and are they permanently deployed or does someone have to rig it at a moments notice.

I have and always shall tow my dink. A floating painter and the oars always in the dink.

To me just common sence.

SD*

Not many around the LI sound area tow a dink. It is rare. Here is does not make sense. Too many wakes and rude boaters, water is snotty often.

I suppose a MOB situaton wold be difficult, and I'll have to think more about how to solve that one, but it won't be by towing the dink.

*

jleonard wrote:
*Too many wakes and rude boaters, water is snotty often.

Click to expand...

*How would a wake have any effect on a towed dink? I tow right on the second hump.

I wouldn't tow a hard dink but an inflatable. Yes

I have yet to see a wake from a passing boat effect my own wake at that close a distance.

There are boarding straps made of webbing. Slipped over the stern cleat and trailing in the water.**Just a*two loop rope/webbing*ladder. At least something to get a foot into to haul yourself up.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 6th of October 2011 11:22:41 AM

skipperdude wrote:jleonard wrote:
*Too many wakes and rude boaters, water is snotty often.

Click to expand...

*How would a wake have any effect on a towed dink? I tow right on the second hump.

I wouldn't tow a hard dink but an inflatable. Yes

I have yet to see a wake from a passing boat effect my own wake at that close a distance.

There are boarding straps made of webbing. Slipped over the stern cleat and trailing in the water.**Just a*two loop rope/webbing*ladder. At least something to get a foot into to haul yourself up.

SD



-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 6th of October 2011 11:22:41 AM

*Years ago I was on board a friend's sailboat and we had just left Mosquito Creek Marina in Vancouver Harbour. As we were approaching the Lionsgate bridge two large tugs came up behind us and passed on either side, going at a good clip. When their combined wake hit us the dinghy crashed into our transom and I was thrown overboard. (The dinghy was being towed on the uphill side of the second wave.)

I also know of an incident where the towed canoe ended up in a cockpit after a similar driveby wake.

Stuff happens.

Wow I have never experienced anything like this. Do you think it was a once or twice.

* ignorance I guess.

Comes from living in the back waters. Not many big boats in the area. Just the cruise ships and they hardley put out a wake at all.

If I ever leave Alaska I'll now better. Thanks

SD

Old Stone wrote:jleonard wrote:

*

Not many around the LI sound area tow a dink. It is rare. Here is does not make sense. Too many wakes and rude boaters, water is snotty often.

I suppose a MOB situaton wold be difficult, and I'll have to think more about how to solve that one, but it won't be by towing the dink.

*

Click to expand...

*

Have to give Jay a bit of backup here. All boating areas have their quirks, weather, tides, etc., but Long Island Sound has the additional factor of some of the most obnoxios and brain dead boaters on the face of the earth. The wakes he refers to are not from tugs or other commercial boats, except the occasional high speed ferry that will stop for nothing, it's the out of control private owners of large go-fast vessels who have absolutely NO regard for anyone around them. And get a combination of a few of them from different directions, watch out. I personally put a bounty out on one boat that did me real damage. Don't ask. So although a wake seems impossible to cause the level of damage this thread is discussing, it happens. BTW, many of us are of the opinion that most of the really bad offenders are employed on Wall Street, and have the same attitude on the water as they do professionally. The rest of us just float around in their wakes of destruction.

*Can't actions like this be reported to the USCG. I thought that if you caused damage to another boat you were responsible.

SD*

Towing a dink for bluewater pasages is very uncommon. In a sailboat it would be be dangerous in a following sea. I have encountered near boarding seas off the stern in a trawler, I shudder to think what a dink would do in these conditions. Count the dinks being towed in the Nordhavn Atlantic rally, 0.

Towing a dinghy is not much of an issue on the inside waters of the PNW. It is very common--- almost universal--- among all the sailboaters here. And a fair number of powerboats tow their dinghies, too. Some of them tow pretty big ones. I've seen a number of 40-something foot cruisers towing things like a Boston Whaler in the 14' to 17' length range, for example. And they tow them at a pretty good clip. The experienced boater I referred to in my earlier post tows a 10' Bullfrog with a 15 hp outboard behind his immaculate Chris Craft Commander (I believe that's the model he has-- it looks like a sportfisherman) at speed up to 15 knots. He has done this, he said, even out on the Strait of Georgia on a not-so-nice day with no problems. But it's been my experience and observation that while we occasionally get the inconsiderate boater who goes plowing along near other boats throwing up a huge wake, this is relatively rare.

When the day comes that we are able to take longer cruises north we will leave our 9' Livingston at home and acquire and tow a 10' Bullfrog.

Sometimes you HAVE to tow your dinghy...

*

Have to give Jay a bit of backup here. All boating areas have their quirks, weather, tides, etc., but Long Island Sound has the additional factor of some of the most obnoxios and brain dead boaters on the face of the earth. The wakes he refers to are not from tugs or other commercial boats, except the occasional high speed ferry that will stop for nothing, it's the out of control private owners of large go-fast vessels who have absolutely NO regard for anyone around them. And get a combination of a few of them from different directions, watch out. I personally put a bounty out on one boat that did me real damage. Don't ask. So although a wake seems impossible to cause the level of damage this thread is discussing, it happens. BTW, many of us are of the opinion that most of the really bad offenders are employed on Wall Street, and have the same attitude on the water as they do professionally. The rest of us just float around in their wakes of destruction.

Click to expand...

*Yes, I have been passed within 20 feet by*35 plus footers going full bore. All to get one boat length ahead* in the channel. This is a*fairly common occurance in that it happens a couple of times every season. *Recreational boaters as well as commercial fisherman (6 pack guys). A friend of mine used to tow a 11 whaler everywhere and he drowned it more than once.

*

Does anybody know what the law is regarding a boat that causes damage by blowing by you and waking you causing damage to your boat or injury to those aboard .

*Especially passing without warning i.e. calling on the radio or sounding a horn.

SD

skipperdude wrote:
Does anybody know what the law is regarding a boat that causes damage by blowing by you and waking you causing damage to your boat or injury to those aboard .

*Especially passing without warning i.e. calling on the radio or sounding a horn.

SD

Click to expand...

Its been long well established in case law that a boat is liable for damages caused by its wake. It was one of the first cases I learned in law school but, for the life of me, i can't remember or locate the citation to the case. It involved one of the big Long Island Sound "commuter" yachts in the early 1900's. I'll go check my copy of "Yachts in a Hurry" to see if I can find the cite.

*

It happened here recently.

Wel, I can't find the cite, but here's a picture of the boat, Tarantula, that caused the lawsuit.

Hey,

Did you guys catch the name of the boat that sank?

******************************** MOONSTRUCK

Kinda eerie.******* KJ

I strongly disagree with the towing the dink is safer idea, it's an accident waiting to happen. A deck or flybridge stowed dingy is very safe. We have a Boston Whaler 11 with a 35hp two stroke on the fly lifted by a crane. It is securely tied down with ratchets in a custom cradle. Remember these are self deploying when the boat sinks We also have a 6-man life raft in a canister on the foredeck just for good measure.

Daddyo wrote:
Remember these are self deploying when the boat sinks

Click to expand...

*I used to think that, too, until hearing a presentation by the USCG that included this very topic.* Boats do not sink in picture-postcard manners.* They roll over, they pitch vertical (bow up or bow down) they do all sorts of nasty gyrations on ther way below the surface.* Sometimes the boat comes down on*or drags down the dinghy that has fallen off of it.* The point was that dinghies don't just float free an bob nicely waiting for you to climb aboard.* They usually end up with severe damage (they said), upside down, and often end up sinking themselves or become totally filled with water to the point where all that's holding them near the surface is their floatation.* If the dinghy has a motor, the motor usually causes the flooded dinghy to "float"*almost vertically in the water, rendering it near-useless.

In warmer waters, the flooded, upside down or even vertically floating dinghy is at least something to hang onto.* But in northern waters, if you can't get into the dinghy and get out of the water, hypothermia is only minutes away.

This is why I have come to agree with the folks I've met who take the position that if you can't get your dinghy into the water in a position in which it can be used in one minute or less, it's not suitable for use as a lifeboat.

Obviously if one carries a purpose-designed raft that can be jettisoned easily or automatically, then it doesn't matter how long it takes to get the shoreboat into the water--- you won't need it.* But I've watched a lot of people lowering dinghies from boat decks or aft cabin tops.* It's a slow, slow process even in the best of conditions.* Try to envision doing this in rough water, at night, with the boat on fire.*And what happens if the power to that nice power davit on the boat deck fails?

As convenient as carrying a dinghy on a cabin top or boatdeck is in terms of space usage, it's something we will never do with any configuration of boat we may own unless we have a boat large enough to also carry a*fast-deploy survival raft.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 7th of October 2011 07:57:50 PM

KJ wrote:
Hey,

Did you guys catch the name of the boat that sank?

******************************** MOONSTRUCK

Kinda eerie.******* KJ

Click to expand...

*Tony had said that a trawler named Moonstruck was tied*at the end of his dock.* It could well have been that one.* I have met and passed many tows on the river with no problems.* Even in the curves if you communicate with the captain and he knows your intentions.* Usually passing on the inside of the curve will give plenty of room for the tow to swing.* The outside is usually the deepest water.* It is hard to imagine what situation caused that boat to flip.

if you can't get into the dinghy and get out of the water, hypothermia is only minutes away.

Unless of course you are prepaired for cold water and carry survival suits for all aboard.

No big deal when its just for 2 people.

Good points Fred. Also one needs to be ABLE to get into the survival suites fairly quickly. Ours are difficult to put on and under extreme stress * ....could be a problem. I recommend everyone try on their survival suites once a year.

nomadwilly wrote:


Good points Fred. Also one needs to be ABLE to get into the survival suites fairly quickly. Ours are difficult to put on and under extreme stress * ....could be a problem. I recommend everyone try on their survival suites once a year.

Click to expand...

I don't know how much they cost, but the below style of survival suit is much easier to put on than a gumby suit
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/prof...-immersion-suit-harness?division=professional

We had both styles on the fire engine, the fng always got the gumby.

-- Edited by Badger on Saturday 8th of October 2011 12:09:19 PM