Additives at fill up

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firstbase

firstbase

Guru
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,644
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Black Eyed Susan
Vessel Make
Grand Banks 42' Classic
Time to fill up my fuel tanks for the first time since purchase. GB 42' with original 300 gallon tanks port and starboard that feed 30 year old Ford Lehman 135's (4200hours) and a Westerbeke 8KW generator (1200 hours). I had the tanks cleaned and fuel polished about 8 running hours ago. Tanks in awesome shape and of course I want to keep them that way. PO said he kept the tanks full as much as possible and suggested I do the same. With the shape the tanks are in I don't have much ammo to go against his suggestion. The tank guy added FPPF Marine Diesel Fuel Treatment to the 300 gallons or so that he put back in. He swears it gets rid of the water basically. Or allows it to be dispersed/absorbed and make it's way through the engine. He made me raise my right hand and swear that I would continue to do the same as well as use a bio treatment which he deemed a necessity here in South Florida. OK.

I don't want to start another additive war thread or anything and I have searched a lot on this subject before posting but I am trying to sort out a couple of things.

I bought another quart of the FPPF but it was relatively hard to find. If I am going to use it I would prefer to use something I can walk into WM or BOW or similar and buy. Any suggestions? I have searched and find a few wonder products but I'm not a big fan of all of the claimed benefits in additional to helping with water i.e. increased cetane, lubricity, etc. It seems to me, might be wrong, that the FPPF's claim to fame is simply its effect on water in the tanks which for some reason is more appealing to me.

On the biotreatment, seems there are several that are more well thought of. Biobor for one which is easily available. I am assuming that there is nothing wrong with these two being added together at fill up.

Any comments appreciated.
 
When we bought ASD in 2013, I spent a lot of money to have my fuel tanks cleaned before we brought it up the coast to the Columbia River. The guy cleaning my tanks told me that now I have clean tanks, it is all for nothing if I don't perform periodic maintenance on the tanks. He recommended the following:


https://www.westmarine.com/buy/biob...-lubricity-additive-16-oz--518696?recordNum=8


If your tanks are not cleaned, then do a shock treatment first. As a result of adding this you may need to change your fuel filters and clean the filter housing.


Good luck.
 
Thanks. Tanks are squeeky clean and current fuel load was polished so it's never going to get any better than it is. I know the Biobor is well known and hard to find bad reviews. Does it do anything for water dispersion or is a second product needed? I don't know enough to really understand some things but my Racors are there to collect water as well as filtering. If I had water wouldn't it drop down so I can drain it off? That's not protection enough?
 
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I am not sure why you would be concerned with additives with clean tanks. If you are purchasing fuel in the states you are getting clean fuel. If you are going through a tank full each year you have reasonably fresh fuel. You shouldn’t be worrying about water unless you have a way for water to enter the tank such as a bad o ring on the fill cap. Any (very unlikely) contamination will show up in the raycor bowl. Should be no reason for an additive. Don’t overthink this. Enjoy the boat :)
 
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Funny, when I bought my boat in 2016, PO was using an additive each time he was filling.
Now I continue to do the same without having any clue if it makes a difference or not.
Is it what we call faith?

L
 
We have low point traps with drainage taps at the bottom of our tanks.

Boat had around 3000 litres of old diesel when we got it, one of the first things I did was drain a liter off from the traps.
No sign of any crud or water then and every couple of months I do the same and tip the clean diesel straight back in the tank.

No additives used.
 
Easting said:
I am not sure you why you would be concerned with additives with clean tanks. If you are purchasing fuel in the states you are getting clean fuel. If you are going through a tank full each year you have reasonably fresh fuel. You shouldn’t be worrying about water unless you have a way for water to enter the tank such as a bad o ring on the fill cap. Any (very unlikely) contamination will show up in the raycor bowl. Should be no reason for an additive. Don’t overthink this. Enjoy the boat :)
Click to expand...

I would respectfully disagree. With the OP being in Florida all you need is heat and you WILL have moisture in your tanks. How can you tell? Unscrew your fill cap, flip it over. More likely than not you will find droplets of water on it. This will spoil your fuel and cause critters to grow in it.

The best insurance against contaminated fuel is to use a good, quality biocide.
 
Lou_tribal said:
Funny, when I bought my boat in 2016, PO was using an additive each time he was filling.
Now I continue to do the same without having any clue if it makes a difference or not.
Is it what we call faith?

L
Click to expand...

In my case "fear" is probably a better word. 30 year old black steel tanks. Do the math. :)
 
This is "THE" one and only someone recommended. I have used it regularly and not ure I can tell you what it did or didn't do as I have never not used it in this boat.

Stanadyne Additives
 
Easting said:
I am not sure why you would be concerned with additives with clean tanks. If you are purchasing fuel in the states you are getting clean fuel. If you are going through a tank full each year you have reasonably fresh fuel. You shouldn’t be worrying about water unless you have a way for water to enter the tank such as a bad o ring on the fill cap. Any (very unlikely) contamination will show up in the raycor bowl. Should be no reason for an additive. Don’t overthink this. Enjoy the boat :)
Click to expand...

Thanks. Enjoy the boat huh? Hadn't really thought about that one yet!! One of the reasons I had the tanks cleaned was a couple of gunked up secondary filters. PO said that, against his better judgement, he fell for an end of the season price on diesel in Mobile Bay. Paid a bit of a price for it as he had to change filters on the run several times. He filled it up for me the day before I purchased. I checked filters maybe 25 hours later and that when I found then a bit nasty. Not too bad but still gunked. Wanted to make sure so I had them cleaned. I know the laws in USA are reasonable but I think it is possible to get bad fuel on occasion as was the case here. Tank guy didn't find any bugs or water though. Just stuff from the fuel.
 
Owned my first GB 36 for 15 years. She was 13 years old when I bought her. Never used an additive, never had a problem. She spent all her life in CT.

My current GB 46 is 21 years old and I’ve owned her for the last 6 years. Spends winters in FL and summers in CT. No additives and no problems.
 
hmason said:
Owned my first GB 36 for 15 years. She was 13 years old when I bought her. Never used an additive, never had a problem. She spent all her life in CT.

My current GB 46 is 21 years old and I’ve owned her for the last 6 years. Spends winters in FL and summers in CT. No additives and no problems.
Click to expand...

This has been my experience as well. I have never used additives. Over the years on boatdiesel.com, additives have discussed a lot with many pro and con opinions. Might be worth checking out their archives to hear the various arguments.
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
I would respectfully disagree. With the OP being in Florida all you need is heat and you WILL have moisture in your tanks. .
Click to expand...

Florida is the same temp range that we are in.
Actually, its hotter here.
As mentioned earlier, we have no moisture or bug issues.
We know this because we have crud traps at the bottom of the tank with drainage taps and no crud or water comes out.
We also have clean bowls on our 1000 series racors and zero vacuum.

We use no additives.
 
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Another :thumb: for Biobor JF. I recently was told that it has a finite shelf life and was advised to discard after about a year.
 
If the boat is just going to sit there and never be used, tanks less than half full, then maybe Biobor. Otherwise, nothing but your Racor fuel/water separators. I don't care how humid your climate is, and that's all we cruised in and thus everyone we met out cruising. And that's what all the decent mechanics I ever met, and various engine manuals I've seen. By the way, speaking for my unscientific sample of one, we never found water in the Racors, either, but our tanks were water tight.
 
I don't think its the water you need to worry about in your Racors, rather the bugs (Algae) that settles in the bottom of your tank brought on by heat (Can also be created by the heat generated by your engines) and moisture.


Then when you go out in beam seas and all those bugs get mixed in with your good fuel, then you are dealing with plugged Racors. I have seen this happen on another boat (Not ASD) who claimed his home made fuel polisher was just as good as the professional job.


Cheap insurance in my book. BTW I have never had filters clogged since I have owned ASD.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you draw the fuel from the very bottom of the tank (as I do) the water and crud get picked up by the Racor. Remove the water from the the tanks and turn your fuel over (use the boat),eliminates the need for a water or growth additive. My only caveat to that is known how clean the fuel you buy is. Doing the great loop this last summer, I expected to buy fuel in areas where it may have been suspect. As a result, I added a Biobor equivalent additive as a preventative measure. My motor is still under warranty, so I add the manufacturers recommended fuel conditioner. To keep everything compatible, I used the manufacturers Biobor equivalent.

Ted
 
ktdtx said:
This is "THE" one and only someone recommended. I have used it regularly and not ure I can tell you what it did or didn't do as I have never not used it in this boat.

Stanadyne Additives
Click to expand...


2nd this. Seattle Injector swears by the stuff. I've been using it for about 4 years. Who knows if it works. Its like a "deer whistle" for your motorcycle. Must work..since I've yet to hit a deer. :)
 
An additive won`t cost a lot in proportion to the potential cost of rectification. I`m with ctjstr, it may/may not do something but do it anyway. choosing which on the advice above. The ones that get rid of water probably emulsify it so it burns off in minute quantities.
 
Like Howard (hmason), never used an additive + keep the tanks full = never had a problem.

My suggestion is get into the habit of filling up every time AFTER you use the boat. Full tanks won’t develop condensation, and condensation is the enemy. It’s a bit of a pain because at the end of a trip all you want to do is tie up and wash the boat and head home, however if you fill up every time you won’t grow crud in the tanks.

I am in Brisbane, probably similar temps to where you (the OP) are based. Like hmason, I have a GB46 Europa.

Hamish.
 
I replaced my tanks over 4 years ago, one was weeping and another was about to go so I did all four. Never used any additives since, and never had any problems. But I do use the boat. I've put 23,000 litres through it since then.

The condensation myth is over-rated I think. I am also in Brisbane, so Florida-equivalent climate. Make sure you can't get water entry though bad o-rings at your fill points and you will likely never get any noticeable water in your fuel tanks. And if no water then there is no algae, since they live in the water and consume fuel at the water/fuel interface for their energy needs. So, if you are getting algae then fix the water ingress point rather than treating the symptom with biocide!

Now, I have always fueled either in USA or Australia, and have never gotten a bad fill. I planned for fills in developing countries so I do run day tanks, where the only way fuel gets to the day tank is via my fuel polisher. But the polisher is still on its original Racor filters, and the needle is still way below threshold level, and no water in the bowls. After 23,00 litres. I have changed the engine Racors a couple of times and they are finer micron, but I don't think it was necessary. Basically I think additives are completely unnecessary.
 
For those of us with tank farm experience the condensation and collection of water from tank farm operation are varied and measurable. The high desert country of Nevada not so much new tank wall water shows up. In the humid US Midwest considerable. But tank farms have very large tanks in comparison to our small boats with hundreds of meters of walls and thousands of tons of diesel.

Anecdotally yes, but two posts here from Brisbane diverge on the effects of condensation, or better said yes and no. Lots of room for discussion in boat small tanks leading of course to the marketing of additives.

All this said three questions seem apparent.

1. Do additives negate the need for cleaning tanks? Or,
2. Do clean tanks negate the need for additives? Or,
3. Does higher fuel turnover keep tanks clean (enough) and negate the need for additives?

:confused:
 
Where can I purchase o'rings for 1 3/4 deck fill?
I got water in the Raycor bowl, tech said is was condensate, as he cleaned the bowl. Another tech, upon questioning, said he thought it was condensate too. I think the rain and hurricane are suspect.
Previously I had added a additive to control the algae. After he cleaned the bowl, I added Biobor. It was the only additive that claim to control water.
I smile because I have aluminum fuel tanks.
I do wish there was a drain in each tank but also understand why not.
 
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OldDan1943 said:
Where can I purchase o'rings for 1 3/4 deck fill?
I got water in the Raycor bowl, tech said is was condensate, as he cleaned the bowl. Another tech, upon questioning, said he thought it was condensate too. I think the rain and hurricane are suspect.
Previously I had added a additive to control the algae. After he cleaned the bowl, I added Biobor. It was the only additive that claim to control water.
I smile because I have aluminum fuel tanks.
I do wish there was a drain in each tank but also understand why not.
Click to expand...

Hey OD,

Go sign up on the American Tug owners group. From there, you can download the "Owner Experiences" document (huge, valuable). Maybe you already have it.

Anyway, I remember a McMaster-Carr part number referenced in there for the deck fill O-rings.

I don't have my AT34 anymore, and can't get to my documentation right now......

Ray
 
OldDan1943 said:
Where can I purchase o'rings for 1 3/4 deck fill?
I got water in the Raycor bowl, tech said is was condensate, as he cleaned the bowl. Another tech, upon questioning, said he thought it was condensate too. I think the rain and hurricane are suspect.
Previously I had added a additive to control the algae. After he cleaned the bowl, I added Biobor. It was the only additive that claim to control water.
I smile because I have aluminum fuel tanks.
I do wish there was a drain in each tank but also understand why not.
Click to expand...
If you go to Harbor Freight. You can purchase a box of rubber o rings (assortment of sizes) for like 8 bucks that will last you and you kids the rest of your lives :) Great to have around.
 
firstbase said:
Time to fill up my fuel tanks for the first time since purchase. GB 42' with original 300 gallon tanks port and starboard that feed 30 year old Ford Lehman 135's (4200hours) and a Westerbeke 8KW generator (1200 hours). I had the tanks cleaned and fuel polished about 8 running hours ago. Tanks in awesome shape and of course I want to keep them that way. PO said he kept the tanks full as much as possible and suggested I do the same. With the shape the tanks are in I don't have much ammo to go against his suggestion. The tank guy added FPPF Marine Diesel Fuel Treatment to the 300 gallons or so that he put back in. He swears it gets rid of the water basically. Or allows it to be dispersed/absorbed and make it's way through the engine. He made me raise my right hand and swear that I would continue to do the same as well as use a bio treatment which he deemed a necessity here in South Florida. OK.

I don't want to start another additive war thread or anything and I have searched a lot on this subject before posting but I am trying to sort out a couple of things.

I bought another quart of the FPPF but it was relatively hard to find. If I am going to use it I would prefer to use something I can walk into WM or BOW or similar and buy. Any suggestions? I have searched and find a few wonder products but I'm not a big fan of all of the claimed benefits in additional to helping with water i.e. increased cetane, lubricity, etc. It seems to me, might be wrong, that the FPPF's claim to fame is simply its effect on water in the tanks which for some reason is more appealing to me.

On the biotreatment, seems there are several that are more well thought of. Biobor for one which is easily available. I am assuming that there is nothing wrong with these two being added together at fill up.

Any comments appreciated.
Click to expand...

I am not an advocate for additives. I think that if you have clean tanks and regularly use your fuel, you will be fine. The filters will do their job. Additionally, CMS (MaineSail) has done real world experiments and was unable to replicate condensation at a detrimental level. There just isn't enough cubic footage in our tank sizes. Will they stay clean forever? Probably not. Just because you don't add to the growth problem doesn't mean that all of the stations up the chain have not and as end users, there just isn't a way to tell what additives were used or how much water may already be in the fuel. So the safe bet is to just plan on getting a proper tank cleaning (or at least check) every 3-5 years.
 
BruceK said:
An additive won`t cost a lot in proportion to the potential cost of rectification. I`m with ctjstr, it may/may not do something but do it anyway..
Click to expand...

But where do you stop?
Plenty of miracle cures for perceived problems being sold for boat, car, home and body with little to no actual evidence to support their purchase.

A bit like religion. :)
 
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Easting said:
If you go to Harbor Freight. You can purchase a box of rubber o rings (assortment of sizes) for like 8 bucks that will last you and you kids the rest of your lives :) Great to have around.
Click to expand...

Be very careful with that. A friend replaced his fuel cap o-ring with one he bought at a local hardware store. Several months later his engine was dying while running. We found a lot of water in his filter. When checking the fuel filler we found the o-ring swollen and cracked. Apparently it wasn't for use with petroleum products.
 
firstbase said:
He swears it gets rid of the water basically. Or allows it to be dispersed/absorbed and make it's way through the engine.
Click to expand...

Water cannot disappear. It has to go somewhere. It may be held in suspension and get picked up in the filters but if it makes its way to the engine, that is bad news for your fuel injection pump.

A much better option is a fuel tank with a drain valve. If the drain valve is at the bottom of a small sump, that's even better.
 
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