ABYC certified electrical survey

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Deano

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
258
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Becca
Vessel Make
Gulfstar 44
If I were ever to buy another boat with large and complex systems I would hire a real marine electrician to give me an opinion. Having one on board after the purchase was very in lightening. It would have given me a huge bargaining chip that I didn’t know about. I’m always on board when he’s here and what knowledge I’ve received is worth paying his rate. BTW he’s patient guy who doesn’t mind if I watch and ask a million questions. Some may charge extra for that.
 
I also should have had a certified ABYC survey before purchase..live and learn.
 
I think if it is any boat over 20-30 years old, an electrical survey will scare you away from buying ANY boat. Additionally, it would seem to me to be pretty unfair to the seller to use, what is probably a factory design (or at worst, a well thought out repair or redesign), as leverage to try to force a price reduction. Would someone expect a seller of an 80’s Taiwanese trawler to change out all the negative DC wire to yellow? Or swap out all spade connectors to heat shrink? You could get a specialist in just about any field to find flaws in every used boat if you look hard enough. All you are going to do is pissoff the seller, waste their time, and insult them by low-balling a price based on expecting a modern building standard on an older boat.

I am not picking on you specifically, just stating a broad brush opinion.
 
“ I think if it is any boat over 20-30 years old, an electrical survey will scare you away from buying ANY boat. Additionally, it would seem to me to be pretty unfair to the seller to use, what is probably a factory design (or at worst, a well thought out repair or redesign), as leverage to try to force a price reduction. Would someone expect a seller of an 80’s Taiwanese trawler to change out all the negative DC wire to yellow? Or swap out all spade connectors to heat shrink? You could get a specialist in just about any field to find flaws in every used boat if you look hard enough. All you are going to do is pissoff the seller, waste their time, and insult them by low-balling a price based on expecting a modern building standard on an older boat.”

Very well said. There is a difference between a boat that is wired safely albeit to the standards that were acceptable when the vessel was originally built as opposed to wiring that has been poorly done (hacked) after the vessel was built. The buyer and or Surveyer should be able to distinguish between the two.
 
I seem to agree with all of you. ABYC electrical standards are best practices in all environments. That does not mean you are unsafe if you are outside the standard in a given situation.

Now the question is, what’s a complicated electrical system.
 
“ I think if it is any boat over 20-30 years old, an electrical survey will scare you away from buying ANY boat. Additionally, it would seem to me to be pretty unfair to the seller to use, what is probably a factory design (or at worst, a well thought out repair or redesign), as leverage to try to force a price reduction. Would someone expect a seller of an 80’s Taiwanese trawler to change out all the negative DC wire to yellow? Or swap out all spade connectors to heat shrink? You could get a specialist in just about any field to find flaws in every used boat if you look hard enough. All you are going to do is pissoff the seller, waste their time, and insult them by low-balling a price based on expecting a modern building standard on an older boat.”

Very well said. There is a difference between a boat that is wired safely albeit to the standards that were acceptable when the vessel was originally built as opposed to wiring that has been poorly done (hacked) after the vessel was built. The buyer and or Surveyer should be able to distinguish between the two.

I agree with this and would extend the thought to any aspect of a survey of an old boat that was built to decades old guidelines. Condition is one thing...upgrading old systems because of an elective criteria is another. Beware of surveyors who carry around a copy of ABYC...especially if you're looking for a simple insurance survey. My carrier, Markel, has finally gone to self surveys of older boats (I did one on our 44 last Spring).
 
I know a few AYBC certified electrical guys who cannot agree on what constitutes an acceptable bonding and grounding system, isolation transformer installation or battery combiner setup. They are smart, certified, well trained but come from different backgrounds.

Sometimes the certified experts aren't.
 
I would definitely make sure that the boat does not trip the dock GFIs at a minimum. A lot of older boats do trip the GFIs. Usually because of comingled neutrals between 2 shore power inlets. I would not be concerned about not having yellow for ground or the type of connectors on the wires, but the tripping of dock GFIs is a big deal. It is a PITA if you can’t plug into updated docks and it can be potentially very dangerous if you do have a leakage.
 
I posted this on another thread, but let me repeat as it is instructive.

About ten years ago a very good friend purchased a CHB 45 after undergoing a survey. The boat was obviously well used and tired, heck it was 30 years old at the time. But all systems worked, the engines had no obvious issues as well as the genset. The bones were solid.

When I got on board a few weeks later to bring the boat down the coast from Virginia, I noticed a few things. Later the list piled up. Some of the issues:

Use of 18 gauge zip cord to wire a branch circuit to a 15 amp breaker through a hidden splice (see below) so none of it was visible.

Splices made inside the cabinetry where the only way to find it was to disconnect one end and pull it back out into the open.

All of the splices were made with wire nuts.

An AC type outlet wired to DC (with the zip cord of course) and used to plug in DC appliances. That one blew my mind.

Many of the add on electrical items were wired by simply wrapping the stripped wire around the terminals with no spade or ring connector.

None of this was called out in the survey, nor would most have been detectable by an ABYC certified electrician (well the stripped wire connections certainly should have been flagged). For the most part you had to live with the boat for a while to find it.

So, I have my doubts about any electrical survey being all that useful. In buying an old boat you just have to budget money to fix what comes up after a while. It will.

Edit based on the PP:

I will bet 90% of 30 year old boats will trip shore power GFCIs and maybe half of the 20 year old boats. It happened with my 1993 Island Packet sailboat, generally considered to be well built.

It doesn't seem to be a ground/neutral wiring fault, the IP only had one shorepower inlet. In the cases I tried to evaluate I believe it was just old damp wiring.

David
 
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Even if the boat has only one shore power inlet, it can still have a GFI problem. I just checked out and rewired a friends boat. He said he was in the water inbetween his boat and the shore and his muscles locked up and he could barely move. Someone had replaced an outlet and swapped the neutral and ground wires on the outlet. His dock does not have GFI protection so the miswired outlet was returning current through his bonding system through the water. Exactly why GFIs are now code on docks. Also found his water heater had a short between neutral and ground but he never used it so the problem was not apparent until we checked it. Lots of boats have current leakage problems. The state docks around here have gone to GFIs and consequently they turn a lot of boats away or do not let them use shore power due to leakage. My boat has 2 inlets and all the neutrals were hooked together. The surveyor did not catch this and he also missed the fact that it only had 1 30 amp main breaker...
 
To be clear. New US code dock wiring is setup to trip at 3 ma. A real hornets has developed with many experts including ABYC themselves saying 3 ma is problematic and not realistic. Safety is one thing, absurdity another.
 
No, the new code says 30 mAmp, not 3 mAmps. Some docks have a GFI per slip, some have a GFI per dock. If there is only one per dock, then all the boats share the 30 mAmps.
 
No, the new code says 30 mAmp, not 3 mAmps. Some docks have a GFI per slip, some have a GFI per dock. If there is only one per dock, then all the boats share the 30 mAmps.

Having a GFCI protect an entire dock is nuts. If the dock had 10 boats then each could only leak 3 mA on average. And if the GFCI tripped it would take down the whole dock. I don't think many docks are wired this way.

David
 
One thing I would like to see on surveys, is a High-pot test on the ac wiring, or, at least, a insulation resistance test. It will show up wet insulation that has above normal leakage. It won't show up high resistance line and neutral connections, but it is one more piece of valuable data.
 
No, the new code says 30 mAmp, not 3 mAmps. Some docks have a GFI per slip, some have a GFI per dock. If there is only one per dock, then all the boats share the 30 mAmps.

Right you are Comodave. I left off a zero and indeed the number is 30. Lobbying is going on to get the total dock marina raised up significantly. Time will tell and in the meantime many US marinas are holding off redos until the situation is better understood.
 
Hopefully not many marinas will go with the one GFI per dock, but it is cheaper that way. The 30 ma GFI are expensive. Two state docks near me have GFIs. One has a GFI per slip and one has one GFI per dock. Yes it is indeed a problem with say 10 boats per GFI. If you are the last boat to tie up and the previous boats are leaking 29 mAmps and you leak 2 mAmps the GFI will trip and you are the bad guy and don’t get power...
 
IMO, everyone you meet knows something you don't. I'll spring for the electrical survey not to beat the seller up, but to know what they find that could later cause me a problem, especially underway so I can at least fix what is known. As a former FPL employee, I know the dangers well. Some of my coworkers never got to retire to that boat they dreamed of.
 
IMO, everyone you meet knows something you don't. I'll spring for the electrical survey not to beat the seller up, but to know what they find that could later cause me a problem, especially underway so I can at least fix what is known. As a former FPL employee, I know the dangers well. Some of my coworkers never got to retire to that boat they dreamed of.

Well said Sugardog! :thumb:

Todd
ABYC Marine Electrical Certified, Former SAMS Surveyor, Current Clock Repairer :)
 
You certainly would not be wrong to have an electrical survey or reserve the right as part of your purchase agreement to perform one if your regular purchase survey determined it prudent. Some things that might trigger performing a more thorough electrical survey would be:

1. Too many connections on battery terminals also without overcurrent protection.
2. Non-marine cabling used for "upgrades" and other add-on equipment.
3. Lack of battery service disconnects and overcurrent protection for high current users such as thrusters and inverters.
4. Dimming lights, flickering electronics or other signs of voltage drop as vessel is operated.
5. AC electric inlet fittings not accounted for by breakers and transfer switches.
6. Melted connections on inlet fittings, discolored cabling behind panels or unusually warm wiring.
7. If the electrical system has been highly modified "rewired" refer to the preceding.

If your hull surveyor does not have a three light tester, circuit analyzer, multi-meter or more then you may need an electrical survey. That equipment is similar to an engine mechanic hooking up his pressure group to the main engines to check them. If you find enough things done well then you will probably be OK. Otherwise, dig in deeper.
 
This may be thread creep:

After reading your post I thought it was worth mentioning a couple things that you did not. I wondered if you checked to make sure the electrical systems were grounded properly (green ground connected to the DC buss) and verified the integrity of the green ground system (good low resistance connections back to the pedestal)? Seems a little odd that much current would have been leaking since a quality green ground connection should have been providing a reliable return path to the source. Just seems to me there may be a little more to the problem.

Even if the boat has only one shore power inlet, it can still have a GFI problem. I just checked out and rewired a friends boat. He said he was in the water inbetween his boat and the shore and his muscles locked up and he could barely move. Someone had replaced an outlet and swapped the neutral and ground wires on the outlet. His dock does not have GFI protection so the miswired outlet was returning current through his bonding system through the water. Exactly why GFIs are now code on docks. Also found his water heater had a short between neutral and ground but he never used it so the problem was not apparent until we checked it. Lots of boats have current leakage problems. The state docks around here have gone to GFIs and consequently they turn a lot of boats away or do not let them use shore power due to leakage. My boat has 2 inlets and all the neutrals were hooked together. The surveyor did not catch this and he also missed the fact that it only had 1 30 amp main breaker...
 
Coming a bit lateto this thread but we had an ABYC electrical bod tell us that everything had to be ripped out andreplaced. Most was previous owner add-ons, some was European original. everything worked beforehand, not after we spent a fortune getting to met the 'codes'. Was told 'the bathroom lights on the ceiling of engine room would cause a fire in the event of flooding' The reality of course being that if flooding ever reached the lights we were in much deeper doo doo anyway and very likely not on 120VAC shorepower anyway . The guy was a good enough electrician and excellent electronically, but the reality and practicality of an owner'slimited wallets never figured in 'codes':nonono:
 
As passed to me to jar the rock solid beliefs about wire nuts of some..... they are permitted in some comnercial applications, and not sure they are addressed at all for rec boats other than ABYC.

46 CFR Chapter I, Subchapter K - SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS CARRYING MORE THAN 150 PASSENGERS OR WITH OVERNIGHT ACCOMMODATIONS FOR MORE THAN 49 PASSENGERS

46 CFR 120.100 - Intent.

eCFRAuthorities (U.S. Code)

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§ 120.100 Intent.

This part contains requirements for the design, construction, installation, and operation of electrical equipment and systems including power sources, lighting, motors, miscellaneous equipment, and safety systems.



46 CFR 120.340 - Cable and wiring requirements

(i) ... The use of twist-on type wire nuts is permitted under the following conditions:

(1) The connections must be made within an enclosure and the insulated cap of the connector must be secured to prevent loosening due to vibration; and

(2) Twist-on type connectors may not be used for making joints in cables, facilitating a conductor splice, or extending the length of a circuit.
 
I read the original post and the replies ....I think most if not all boat purchases are emotionally driven ie. " I like this boat " ... Short of a blown engine, failing decks etc. most of the buyers will make the deal. I have seen many purchaser surveys ( where all the short comings are being shown ) and the owner says " you don't want it, then walk " ! ..... It's the lying brokers that I personally have a problem with ...:) FB
 
. I wondered if you checked to make sure the electrical systems were grounded properly (green ground connected to the DC buss) .

This is a bit misleading for vessels not equipped with an isolation transformer. Yes, connect various 110 and incoming grounds to the DC buss. But in only one spot. Have a separate master ships ground buss gather all the ship's grounds and with one lead only tie to the DC bonding system.

Even with an IT a separate ship's ground is a good idea. Without either of these two stray currents will most likely be too high to match up with newer GFIC dock setups and cause a dock power trip.
 
There’s a lot of good content on this thread by posters more qualified than I am. However I can add two points to this thread:
1) if the engine room looks tidy, and the breaker panels and the wiring behind them are all nice and tidy, those are good signs. The vessel we purchased “looked real professional” and ultimately there were few problems. At a later time you can get an electrician aboard to correct less obvious faults.
2) Educate yourself by reading Nigel Caulder’s excellent work on boats marine wiring etc. It gives you enough knowledge to perhaps forewarn of problems.

Jim
 
:thumb:
There’s a lot of good content on this thread by posters more qualified than I am. However I can add two points to this thread:
1) if the engine room looks tidy, and the breaker panels and the wiring behind them are all nice and tidy, those are good signs. The vessel we purchased “looked real professional” and ultimately there were few problems. At a later time you can get an electrician aboard to correct less obvious faults.
2) Educate yourself by reading Nigel Caulder’s excellent work on boats marine wiring etc. It gives you enough knowledge to perhaps forewarn of problems.

Jim

:thumb:
 
Having a GFCI protect an entire dock is nuts. If the dock had 10 boats then each could only leak 3 mA on average. And if the GFCI tripped it would take down the whole dock. I don't think many docks are wired this way.

David


I have posted this here before but it always bears repeating...

The current NFPA 70 / NEC requirements Article 555 Marinas & Boatyards, which rolled out in 2011, required a 100mA ground fault protection level for marina dock feeds. In the current 2017 NFPA 70 / NEC 555 this maximum level droped from 100mA to 30mA.

The Problem With the New Mandates:

#1 NFPA 70 / NEC requirements do not mandate 30mA protection at each dock pedestal (it's optional), which would be the only prudent way to adopt or phase this into an entire industry where the safety standards are voluntary and arguably grossly ignored. Under the new 2017 NEC 555 standard it appears as though an entire marina can be protected by a 30mA GFI.. (I have submitted request for clarification to NFPA but as of yet nothing) 30mA would be fine if it was mandated at each pedestal, meaning only the offending boat would be out of power, but it appears they did not roll it out like this.

When I originally wrote this I was waiting for a customers phone to cool down so we could continue troubleshooting his shore system via video messaging. He was in the BVI and could not find a decent electrician to save his life. As of this writing we'd found on-board AC neutral bonded to AC Earth and his two 30A shore inlets had a common neutral bonding.

Somewhere in his travels he had a failed 8kW generator ripped out, by some hacks, who left a ghost transfer switch and ran the ghost wires to where ever they found an open terminal. It is a freaking mess, a mess I repeatedly tried to talk him into fixing before he headed off cruising, "seems to work" he'd say.... He began complaining of issues when his vessel began tripping up to code marina's and shutting entire docks down. The non-transients at these marinas were none too happy and the marinas finally told him not to plug in.

As a result of NFPA/NEC perhaps not requiring 30mA ground fault protection at the pedestal level, for each boat, any vessel plugging into a dock pedestal that is protected by an upstream ground fault device can create nuisance trips for every boat on that same feed. This = BAD (safe, but bad)

Shore based ground fault devices that cover multiple pedestals (boats), can result in a nuisance trip that de-powers all the boats on that string and creates a lost power situation to all of those vessels, just as my customer had done, at no less than 3 or 4 marinas since leaving Maine. I had fully warned him of this but because he'd only ever visited "grandfathered" marinas he declined to correct the wiring issues.

The 2011 100mA NFPA / NEC roll out has already cost boaters significant $$ in destroyed battery banks etc.. Unfortunately, the boaters who lost out, may not have been the ones who created the problem just the recipient of what I often refer to as Darryl & Darryl wiring, for those old enough to get the Newhart reference.. No offense to any Darryl's out there....

The new NFPA / NEC ground fault requirements for marinas is only serving to expose the horrendous wiring that has gone on in the marine industry for far too long. Even if your boat is properly wired, to ABYC standards, you can still suffer the consequences of Darryl & Darryl hack jobbing their own boat because the 2011 NFPA/NEC requirement was not at the power pedestal/individual boat level and the 30mA dock pedestal placement appears to be optional..

If you're a marina owner and your electrician tells you you need to purchased and install one 30mA GFI to be compliant or 125 30mA GFi's (one for each slip/pedestal) which way to the think the marina owner is going to wire it.....???


#2 Far too many boats out there are not wired to meet or exceed the ABYC safety standards. The NFPA / NEC could really care less about this, it's not their issue. When you plug an incorrectly wired vessel into the new NFPA /NEC shore standards, requiring ground fault protection, it can now become everyone's issue not just the problem vessel. Incorrectly wired vessels create problems for everyone at an up-to-code marina.

Boats that are not wired to current ABYC standards, as a group, have very, very high ground fault percentages. For example the number of boats I measure with AC grounding (GREEN) and AC Neutral (WHITE) bonded on-board the vessel (A huge no-no) is in the range of 35-40% +/-. This is INSANE, but it is the reality of a voluntary standard that has gone largely ignored by boat owners.

Bottom Line? Improperly wired vessels, vessels not wired to ABYC standards, can cause high rates of nuisance tripping of shore ground fault interrupters. This issue was less nuisance prone at 100mA and is going to be a MAJOR MESS at 30mA unless marinas choose to install the GFI at the dock pedestal level.

The sheer age of many vessels also means some of them have equipment that is so antiquated that it too creates an inadvertent neutral to grounding bond on-board the vessel. Improperly wired inverters, generators, transfer switches, automotive grade battery chargers, auto grade inverters, improperly wired hot water heaters etc. are all hot button areas where a neutral/grounding bond may be hiding. Some boat owners & terrestrial based electricians have also been known to place a jumper between neutral and grounding bus.

#3 The Rx?

Marina Rx: Marina's who want happy customers should ideally install a a 30mA ground fault device at each pedestal. This is the ONLY way to minimize nuisance tripping of boats other than the offending incorrectly wired vessel.

The GFI device (GF=Ground Fault Interrupting) should be installed at each pedestal so one boat or transient vessel can not take out an entire dock or entire group of vessels due to dangerous wiring practices. Adding a GFI device at each pedestal was in compliance with the 2011 NFPA 70 / NEC and actually exceeded the bare minimum requirements. Clarification on the 2017 standard I am still waiting on, but it appears pedestal level is not a mandated requirement and it can be upstream of the pedestal...

By installing a ground fault device at each pedestal, this prevents Darryl & Darryl's stellar wiring job from taking out your boat when they create a nuisance trip. These ground fault devices should not be daisy chained to the load side of the GFI and should serve only that pedestal, if keeping happy customers is what they desire.

Marina's also need to comprehend and understand that GF leakage is additive. If we have ten boats each leaking 4 mA, which is not even enough for each boat to trip an individual 120V 5mA GFCI, those ten boats together can trip a single 30 mA ground fault device.

Marina's should prohibit vessels that cause a nuisance trips, from plugging into their system, until the fault has been corrected. If a vessel is tripping a 100mA threshold device (and this is not due to additive leakage) this creates a very dangerous potential for electric shock drowning.

The issue & mess of nuisance tripping will only get worse now that NFPA & NEC have dropped it to 30mA, because the drop to 30mA appears to not require protection at the individual pedestal level. If someone reads the standard differently, or has submitted a request for clarification, please let me know.

Marina's need to fully understand the new requirements and be trained on how to conduct spot audits and to check for individual vessel issues that would otherwise create problems for the rest of their customers. Or simply do it right and install a 30mA device at each pedestal, this way only the miswired customer is left without power.

It should be noted that if you follow the ABYC standards, and your boat is wired with a 30mA ELCI (an ABYC E-11 requirement), then you won't have to worry about tripping a 30mA pedestal...

When a marina is re-wired, or the wiring touched by a professional, they now need to become in compliance with the current shore based standards. The mandatory shore based NEC/NFPA standards extend to the dock pedestal receptacle, and the voluntary ABYC standards begin at the shore power cord set.

This problem of nuisance tripping is only going to get worse, much worse as time goes on and more and more marinas become in compliance with the NFPA 70 / NEC article 555 requirements. Now that it has officially dropped to 30mA, to protect multiple pedestals, it will become a complete debacle..:banghead:

Boat Owner Rx:
Wire your vessel to the current ABYC standards and you will no longer create dangerous situations, power loss or dead batteries for those around you who do have properly wired boats.

If you are at a marina with frequent GFI nuisance trips ask them to opt for pedestal level 30mA GFI protection as opposed to marina, branch or finger level protection.
 
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I have posted this here before but it always bears repeating...

Great post CMS! Although I have not yet done so, I'm going to go through my entire AC panel to test for neutral-ground connections. A good friend discovered that his KK48 had a neutral-ground at the washer drier unit and it was likely delivered from the manufacturer that way.

Jim
 
It isn’t just neutral to ground that can cause a problem. If you have 2 shore power inlets and any or all of the neutrals are comingled, it will cause a GFI to trip. You might get by using a Y to connect both inlets into one shore outlet. A friends boat had not only all the neutrals connected together but also had a neutral daisy chained to both inlet volt meters which is easy to overlook when you are just looking at the bus bar for comingled neutrals.
 
CMS is right that marinas should not do entire docks with one GFI, but there are some that have done that. So far I have stopped at 2 marinas that have updated the electrical and 1 had a single slip per GFI and the other had a single GFI per dock. The marina that had one per slip was even able to see exactly how mAmps each boat was leaking. Neat.
 
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