Safety and Systems Monitoring

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
M

MichaelB1969

Guru
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
679
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Make
Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Hi all, I'm getting a bit obsessed with the idea of adding some monitoring of systems (some probably overdue) on the boat lately.

I definitely want to add:

- Smoke/fire detector
- Carbon monoxide detector
- High-water alert

First question is, why bother with a fire detector? Wouldn't a smoke detector be better given the fact that smoke almost always precedes fire? Any reason to have both?

Also, I see there are other monitors for the following. Any thoughts on the criticality of monitoring these things?

- Propane
- Exhaust Temp
- Cooling Water Flow
- Low Oil Pressure

I also wonder whether or not the Volvo EVC warns about any of these things out of the box (with the exception of the propane of course).

Lastly, if I get a panel with an audible alert, do you think the panel should be replicated on the flybridge, or is one at the lower helm enough? My assumption is that I'd hear it from the bridge.

Any thoughts or guidance is appreciated. I have been perusing AQUALARM, Warning Systems For Land And Sea and they seem to have a wide array of sensors and panels for this stuff at a reasonable price.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Last edited:
Your Volvo EVC should have warning alarms for low oil pressure, high coolant temperature, maybe coolant flow and exhaust temp as well. Have a look at where the sensors are on your engine.

For a high water alert, I'd recommend putting in a second bilge pump and switch about a foot higher than the existing one. Then just attach a loud $2 buzzer which goes off when the pump is activated. All up it would likely be the same price as a fancy dedicated high water alarm.
99% of the time a high water alarm is caused by a failed bilge switch or pump. In most cases the problem is dealt with rather than just an alarm activated. The alarm then stop when the water level is down to a safe level.
 
Last edited:
Here's my amateur impression of the detectors:

Fire detector rather than smoke detector in the engine spaces because it's a dirty environment...there's little point in putting a smoke detector down there.

Smoke detector in the crew spaces; the greatest likelihood of fire aboard are in the engine spaces and galley.

Carbon monoxide detector in the crew sleeping spaces, may be battery powered or hardwired to ship's power (there are specific requirements regarding how the power supply is switched and fused). Must be marine type meeting UL 2034; residential CO detectors alarm with spot measurements while marine detectors are multi-sampling to prevent frequent alarms for transient detection.

Propane aboard? Yes, definitely add a monitor. Commercial passenger vessels and boats for hire can have gasoline, diesel, coal, wood, kerosene as fuel...yet propane is no bueno. There's a reason for that.

Many modern diesels have pyrometers; the question would be whether to have a guage or an idiot light (alarm).

Low oil pressure and low water flow alarms would both warn the operator of perhaps the only two likely engine failures before catastrophic damage could occur.

My primary bilge pump has a float switch but also has a high water detector next to it that is wired to the alarm panel.

An alarm repeater on the fly bridge? Both my boat and my late father-in-law's boat have mechanical alarm bells (think bank robbery). When that thing rings you can hear it from keel to truck. Your mileage may vary.
 
Last edited:
I have monitors for all the items mentioned. Each one has its own audio alarm system. They are each independent systems. Some are audible both on the fly bridge and at the lower helm. None of these systems are conected to the internet or monitored electronically. For now I have kept it all simple.
 
Aus Can,
Having the high bilgewater alarm a foot above the primary is an open invitation to disaster.
I install them about 1 1/2” above normal on level, so that if the primary fails you know about it before there is hundreds of gallons of water in the bilge.
If you wire a secondary pump with the alarm, it still should be placed as low in the bilge as possible, because it will only come on when your primary has failed, and you still need to get that bilge pumped down to normal level!
 
kapnd said:
Aus Can,
Having the high bilgewater alarm a foot above the primary is an open invitation to disaster.
I install them about 1 1/2” above normal on level, so that if the primary fails you know about it before there is hundreds of gallons of water in the bilge.
If you wire a secondary pump with the alarm, it still should be placed as low in the bilge as possible, because it will only come on when your primary has failed, and you still need to get that bilge pumped down to normal level!
Click to expand...


It all depend on the shape of your bilge. I should have clarified that.
On my boat the bottom 18" of the bilge sump would only hold 5 gallons of water. There is no room for a second pump. My second pump and switch/alarm is out of the sump 18" higher than the primary pump.
On a boat with a flat bottomed bilge, yes - the difference would be minimal.

Shall we say the second pump and switch should be 5 gallons higher?
 
Last edited:
I have the wireless smoke detectors....one in saloon and one in engineroom.

Last year, it sounded a few seconds before a horrible screeching noise from my engiberoom....so I was already throttling down and looking to anchor when I heard the noise.

The noise turned outvto be bits of dampner plate scrubbkng the inside ofvthe bell housing, but they generated enough dust and or smoke to set iff the alarms. I was happy they worked as advertised.

They have been down there for almost 2 years now with no false alarms and several true ones
 
Sabre602 said:
Here's my amateur impression of the detectors:

Fire detector rather than smoke detector in the engine spaces because it's a dirty environment...there's little point in putting a smoke detector down there.

Smoke detector in the crew spaces; the greatest likelihood of fire aboard are in the engine spaces and galley.

Carbon monoxide detector in the crew sleeping spaces, may be battery powered or hardwired to ship's power (there are specific requirements regarding how the power supply is switched and fused). Must be marine type meeting UL 2034; residential CO detectors alarm with spot measurements while marine detectors are multi-sampling to prevent frequent alarms for transient detection.

Propane aboard? Yes, definitely add a monitor. Commercial passenger vessels and boats for hire can have gasoline, diesel, coal, wood, kerosene as fuel...yet propane is no bueno. There's a reason for that.

Many modern diesels have pyrometers; the question would be whether to have a guage or an idiot light (alarm).

Low oil pressure and low water flow alarms would both warn the operator of perhaps the only two likely engine failures before catastrophic damage could occur.

My primary bilge pump has a float switch but also has a high water detector next to it that is wired to the alarm panel.

An alarm repeater on the fly bridge? Both my boat and my late father-in-law's boat have mechanical alarm bells (think bank robbery). When that thing rings you can hear it from keel to truck. Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...


Post #3: "Commercial passenger vessels and boats for hire can have gasoline, diesel, coal, wood, kerosene as fuel...yet propane is no bueno. There's a reason for that."

46CFR184.200 (T boats ... small passenger vessels under 100 tons)



184.202 Restrictions.

(a) The use of gasoline for cooking,

heating, or lighting is prohibited on all

vessels.

(b) Fireplaces or other space heating

equipment with open flames are pro-

hibited from being used on all vessels.

(c) Vessels permitted to use liquefied

and non-liquefied gases as cooking

fuels by 46 CFR part 147 must meet the

requirements in

§

184.240 of this part.

The use of these fuels for cooking,

heating, and lighting on ferry vessels is

prohibited by part 147 in subchapter N

of this chapter.



Subchapter N of 46CFR147.45 provides details on the use of liquid fuels on ferry boats.
 
Sabre602 said:
Here's my amateur impression of the detectors:

Fire detector rather than smoke detector in the engine spaces because it's a dirty environment...there's little point in putting a smoke detector down there.

Smoke detector in the crew spaces; the greatest likelihood of fire aboard are in the engine spaces and galley.

Carbon monoxide detector in the crew sleeping spaces, may be battery powered or hardwired to ship's power (there are specific requirements regarding how the power supply is switched and fused). Must be marine type meeting UL 2034; residential CO detectors alarm with spot measurements while marine detectors are multi-sampling to prevent frequent alarms for transient detection.

Propane aboard? Yes, definitely add a monitor. Commercial passenger vessels and boats for hire can have gasoline, diesel, coal, wood, kerosene as fuel...yet propane is no bueno. There's a reason for that.

Many modern diesels have pyrometers; the question would be whether to have a guage or an idiot light (alarm).

Low oil pressure and low water flow alarms would both warn the operator of perhaps the only two likely engine failures before catastrophic damage could occur.

My primary bilge pump has a float switch but also has a high water detector next to it that is wired to the alarm panel.

An alarm repeater on the fly bridge? Both my boat and my late father-in-law's boat have mechanical alarm bells (think bank robbery). When that thing rings you can hear it from keel to truck. Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...

For general info.....

46CFR184.200 (T boats ... small passenger vessels under 100 tons)



184.202 Restrictions.

(a) The use of gasoline for cooking,

heating, or lighting is prohibited on all

vessels.

(b) Fireplaces or other space heating

equipment with open flames are pro-

hibited from being used on all vessels.

(c) Vessels permitted to use liquefied

and non-liquefied gases as cooking

fuels by 46 CFR part 147 must meet the

requirements in

§

184.240 of this part.

The use of these fuels for cooking,

heating, and lighting on ferry vessels is

prohibited by part 147 in subchapter N

of this chapter.



Subchapter N of 46CFR147.45 provides details on the use of liquid fuels on ferry boats.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a fire detector?

I'm aware of:
  • Smoke detectors. Trips an alarm.
  • Fixed temperature detectors. A set temperature trips the alarm / can release extinguishing agent.
  • "Rate of rise" detectors. When the temp goes up too fast it trips the alarm / can release extinguishing agent.
If you have the room and budget all three are best. Rate of rise are designed to trip before fixed temp is reached. But if the rise is too slow may not catch a fire condition. I think there are combination fixed and rate of rise sensors available.

If you want to build a customized system to suit your needs and don't need the latest high tech Murphy makes an easy to wire alarm panel. Accepts normally open and normally closed sensors. Repeater panels can be added.

Murphy ST10AS-LM
 
In my experience, you should duplicate any alarms for the flybridge. You may not hear them from the flybridge if they are only sounding at the lower helm.

As for CO detectors, the sensor has a fixed life so even if you have an installed hard wired detector, you should check the label for the expiration date.
 
Wait a sec, what?! An open flame isnt allowed? What about if the flame is internal but visible? Like in a Newport Dickinson propane heater, that many of us have and I want.
 
South of Heaven said:
Wait a sec, what?! An open flame isnt allowed? What about if the flame is internal but visible? Like in a Newport Dickinson propane heater, that many of us have and I want.
Click to expand...

Commercial vessels or if your insurance company says no.
 
If you are asking about propane, then I presume you have propane on the boat for cooking and/or grilling? Assuming you do, then yes, you should have CO detectors in the living spaces since the propane will be the only possible source of CO. With no propane (and no gasoline engines) then I don't think a CO detector is necessary.

And if you have propane, are you saying that Beneteau built the boat without a propane detection and shutoff system? That would be surprising.
 
“With no propane (and no gasoline engines) then I don't think a CO detector is necessary.”
One would think....However I ran a charter boat with 2 good clean running GM gassers. Would start the boat and boats on the other side of the dock would have their CO alarms go off. One guy would come out screaming at me. Lol.
CO has a way of finding its way into other people’s cabins.
 
psneeld said:
...Subchapter N of 46CFR147.45 provides details on the use of liquid fuels on ferry boats.
Click to expand...

To clarify, the fuels I mentioned include those used to power the vessel, not just for heating and cooking. The gist was meant to be that propane carries properties that make it especially hazardous when used on a ship or boat. Can it be used safely? Of course. Are the consequences of a leak potentially catastrophic? Yup.
 
But you were clearly off base with asumptions of open flames and propane....etc.... when it came to regulations.

Just keeping the facts straight here....

Boating without fuels carries its own set of serious hazards....no need to blow things out of proportion.
 
twistedtree said:
If you are asking about propane, then I presume you have propane on the boat for cooking and/or grilling? Assuming you do, then yes, you should have CO detectors in the living spaces since the propane will be the only possible source of CO. With no propane (and no gasoline engines) then I don't think a CO detector is necessary.

And if you have propane, are you saying that Beneteau built the boat without a propane detection and shutoff system? That would be surprising.
Click to expand...

There is a shutoff switch located in the galley, but as far as I know there is no detection.
 
MichaelB1969 said:
Seems like I would need a separate propane detector for the LPG, and not rely on a CO detector, correct?

For example, I see the following:

P-1BS-R Fireboy Xintex Propane (LPG) Fume Detector w/Solenoid Valve

Also, see the following for reference:

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/blog/20...glpg-gas-leaks-and-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/

Thanks!
Mike
Click to expand...


Right, propane detection and CO detection are two different things. But the use of propane begets the need for both.

Your fireboy propane device should have two detectors wired into it. One should be in the propane locker, and the other right by the cooktop (assuming that's the propane appliance), typically underneath it somewhere. If either sensor detect propane it shuts off the solenoid valve and sounds an alarm.

As a slight aside, a few weeks ago I was refilling my propane tanks and give the sensor a look in the gas locker and discovered a badly corroded plug between the sensor and extension cable. It had been sitting where sea water could slosh into the locker via the drain vent. So these things are worth inspection.

Now for CO detection, the question is whether there is anything on your boat that produces it. Burning propane is one of those things, so if you have propane on board, you should also have CO detectors. Gasoline engines are another thing that produces CO. Diesel, does not, so if all you have is diesel, co detection isn't required, but could still be a good safeguard. The guy with a gas engine next to you could be gassing you out, like the example in this thread.
 
MichaelB1969

It's easy to see the cause for your concern. I think you're on track with the advice given toward coming up with a solution. You might sit down with someone knowledgeable in a yard and get their design ideas.

I know the fires on other ST's are scary and one thing I would do is call Beneteau and try to have an open and frank discussion and get their input into how you can avoid the same fate. Challenge them a bit as to what they might have done better if money wasn't an object.

I think a good system has alarms and cameras so you can quickly detect things. If you get an ER fire alarm and you look in the camera and see a major fire raging, you know not to open the hatch, just to get off the boat. On the other hand you get a smoke alarm and don't see much on the camera, then you feel confident investigating it further.

As to propane, we don't have it on any boat. We understand it can be used safely, but we choose not to. One less thing to worry about. We'd already decided not to have it, but fire fighting courses made us even happier with our decision.
 
BandB said:
MichaelB1969

I think a good system has alarms and cameras so you can quickly detect things. If you get an ER fire alarm and you look in the camera and see a major fire raging, you know not to open the hatch, just to get off the boat. On the other hand you get a smoke alarm and don't see much on the camera, then you feel confident investigating it further.

As to propane, we don't have it on any boat. We understand it can be used safely, but we choose not to. One less thing to worry about. We'd already decided not to have it, but fire fighting courses made us even happier with our decision.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I like the camera idea. I know my Raymarine has built-in WiFi, wonder if there is a camera that directly connects with it via WiFi.

I'm leaning toward adding smoke alarms, high-water alarms, upgraded bilge pumps and an LPG detector.
 
Does your ST44 have an automatic fire system in the ER? A complete system would include:

- Build in extinguisher bottle properly sized for the space

- Automatic heat trigger release in the ER. If a fire gets going, it should deploy automatically.

- Manual release handle located outside the ER. This covers the case BandB bring up of hearing an alarm, and seeing a raging fire in the ER. Pull the manual release, and also be ready to get off the boat. Keep in mind that sometimes boats are not in places where you want to get off unless absolutely necessary, like well off shore. If a fire can be brought under controlled, staying on the boat is often the safest thing to do. It's different if you are in a populated, nearshore location.

- Automatic shut down system. This is a relay system that is triggered when the fire bottle is released, either automatically or manually. It shuts down everything that can fuel an ER fire, or that can evacuate the fire suppressant. Typically it would kill the engine, kill the generator, shut off ER blowers, close dampers if equipped, shut off propane, and shut off a diesel heater.
 
twistedtree said:
Does your ST44 have an automatic fire system in the ER? A complete system would include:

- Build in extinguisher bottle properly sized for the space

- Automatic heat trigger release in the ER. If a fire gets going, it should deploy automatically.

- Manual release handle located outside the ER. This covers the case BandB bring up of hearing an alarm, and seeing a raging fire in the ER. Pull the manual release, and also be ready to get off the boat. Keep in mind that sometimes boats are not in places where you want to get off unless absolutely necessary, like well off shore. If a fire can be brought under controlled, staying on the boat is often the safest thing to do. It's different if you are in a populated, nearshore location.

- Automatic shut down system. This is a relay system that is triggered when the fire bottle is released, either automatically or manually. It shuts down everything that can fuel an ER fire, or that can evacuate the fire suppressant. Typically it would kill the engine, kill the generator, shut off ER blowers, close dampers if equipped, shut off propane, and shut off a diesel heater.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't. I have a fairly large clean agent extinguisher in the ER with a manual pull outside the ER. I don't believe it is automatically triggered, but I will check more closely next time I am on the boat.

I'd like to get an ER camera so that upon hearing the smoke detector I could look without having to open the ER compartment door and potentially letting oxygen in to make matters worse. If a fire was seen, I could switch the ignitions off, which will shut the fans off as well, then pull a row of handles outside the ER that shutoff fuel to the engines and generator, and also trigger the extinguisher.

If I did a lot of long distance cruising, especially well offshore, I might invest in upgrades. But at this point, I think I'd rather spend my money upgrading the bilges and adding detection to give me more time to react to a situation (whether it is LPG, Smoke or high-water that is detected). The boat is woefully under-bilged (new word) with two small bilge pumps both in the ER compartment I believe. I don't think there is any bilge pump in the bow section or in the lazarette.

Given the likelihood of a hull breach (whether by hitting something or having a through hull fail) being significantly higher than a fire, and having basic fire protection (once the detectors go in), seems like a more logical investment at this time would be to upgrade the bilges.

Thoughts?
 
It sounds like you have a key part of the system, which is the extinguisher and manual release. I wouldn't be surprised if it has an automatic release based on high temp as well.

The camera sounds good if you have no other way to see into the ER without opening the door.
 
twistedtree said:
It sounds like you have a key part of the system, which is the extinguisher and manual release. I wouldn't be surprised if it has an automatic release based on high temp as well.

The camera sounds good if you have no other way to see into the ER without opening the door.
Click to expand...



Yeah, no way to see without opening the hatch in the floor.

As for the automatic release, I'm going to explore the setup next time I'm in the boat, but this is the best pic I have for reference.

IMG_8423.jpg
 
twistedtree said:
...Gasoline engines are another thing that produces CO. Diesel, does not, so if all you have is diesel, co detection isn't required, but could still be a good safeguard....
Click to expand...

Oops.

ALL hydrocarbons produce carbon monoxide when combustion takes place. If combustion were complete (i.e., theoretical), then they wouldn't. Alas, real-world combustion is incomplete.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
GB 36 propane locker update advice
Replies
20
Views
796
Xlantic
Xlantic
B
Solar Panels
Replies
8
Views
1K
SteveK
SteveK
H
Carbon Monoxide / Propane Tank Mystery
Replies
13
Views
1K
huruta
H
Adopo
Supreme Court Upholds Back-Door Denials of Boat Insurance Claims
Replies
6
Views
1K
SteveK
SteveK
P
Flare-like fire suppression systems?
Replies
3
Views
928
Peter Pegasus
P

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom