Fog

Comodave said:

I have been looking at the new FLIRs. It hasn't bubbled up to the top of my wish list yet but it will at some point. We do some night running and I think it would be great in fog, but I haven't seen it first hand.

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One brief trip from the Haulover inlet down to my dock.... I spent the big bucks on 2 FLIR camera. Aft is fixed. Forward is adjustable up and down, port and starboard.

I have not seen fog since I had them installed.

makobuilders said:

Nice. It's called trusting your instincts/gut feeling/sixth sense. I've learned that "the little voice inside my head" is always right. 100% of the time. The challenge is in hearing it correctly!



Thanks Portage. One day I will use this to train my daughter.

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Any airport will have the hoods for instrument rating. The one I bought for the Chapman school was not expensive and they were very appreciative. They would try and use paper to cover the helm station but it wasn't pretty.

Want a real lesson? Qualify on submarines. You totally rely on your instruments. "Compass", great charts, depth sounder. With those 3 things, IMO, you can travel anywhere on the ocean or under it.

When I worked in Idaho and Alberta Canada, in forestry, topographic maps and a compass. Believe in your compass.... If you don't trust your compass, toss it away for you will never believe in it. Second guessing your compass is a bad idea.

markpierce said:

Our horn is too loud for anyone forward of the pilothouse.

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Not if they know it's coming. That's why I sounded mine manually; I really got to love those big old honkers.

I feel you really need someone up there if at all possible in confined waters especially, not just for vision but for sound, further away from the engines.

In our local waters, LI Sound, BI Sound, etc. we travel in the fog often.
I suck at beig the radar watch, but my first mate is pretty skilled. That's her job, I navigate and watch/listen.
I trust my chart plotter and autopilot so that allows me to concentrate more on watching. Always the auto fog horn is on of vis is less than about 1/2 mile.
Fog is funny....most of the time folks on the VHF will say 100 foot visibility when in fact we verify the vis at least 1/4 mile or more using the radar rings.
"If there is nothing to see you can't see anything" but usually vis is farther than you think.
The more I boat in fog, the less uncomfortable I am in it.

I'm surprised how many pleasure boaters, especially anglers in small boats, wander around in fog without the use of radar, radios or foghorns.

I run all the time with the radar on to keep my familiarity and proficiency up to par. If the radar or autopilot are not working, I won't enter the fog.

When I enter fog, if it's not already engaged, I'll use the autopilot to allow for better course control while I scan the gauges. I use my Fogmate foghorn control on my air horns to announce my presence. I continually scan multiple GPS displays and cross check them with the radar. The radios are tuned to 16 and 13 or the local VTS Ch 14.

When done right, I find it takes great concentration in congested or constrained waters. It's much like flying an instrument approach in instrument meteorological conditions. I normally don't socialize much during these stretches when guests are aboard.

Al:

I wish I had a dollar for even boat that blew past me without radar with the operators head down fixed on the chartplotter, and no one looking out. The evil me says the next horn blast is going to come a little early.

Funny Fog story ( you know, the kind that's only funny once you're safely tied up to the dock ....)
I was about 12, and lived in Massachusetts when my father bought a boat in Rhode Island. (26' Pearson Weekender ) Bringing the boat home was to be a 3 day adventure for my brother, father and I. We ended one day getting bounced around Buzzards Bay in a current opposing the wind situation. We woke the next totally fogged in. It was a little over a mile to the mouth of the Cape Cod Canal, and the fog was supposed to lift shortly, so we put a lookout on the bow, made headway speed from buoy to buoy with a compass and a stopwatch. Once in the canal we couldn't see either side of it, but we stayed to one side of the channel with the depth sounder. If it got too deep....we were in the middle...too shallow...we had wandered outside the channel. All of a sudden we hear a MASSIVE fog horn. We can't see anything and assume a huge ship is bearing down on us. HOOOOOOOONNNNNNKKKKK....HOOOOONNNNNNNNKKKKK....we head for shallower water but the horn is getting louder. Go shallower...louder still....now we're close to the bank of the canal.....all of a sudden we see a train go by on the shore of the canal.....What we had thought was a ship horn, was actually a train horn. The rest of the trip home was pretty mild after that.

OldDan1943 said:

I wonder how an IR camera would do in a fog.
Any hints?

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I have a Flir 640 handheld I use at night. It was pricey, but worth the money because we are out quite a bit in the dark. Never tried it in the fog.

Good discussion to see how others deal with the white mist. I also follow the radar always on protocol, and continually test ranges, verifying targets, etc. The nuances of reading the radar properly go away if not used often, at least for me.

Trains frequently sound horns along the southern side of mile-wide Carquinez Strait (my neighborhood). Train-horn sounds have a range well beyond the width of the strait, like a couple miles beyond. One needs to differentiate between train and ship/horn sounds. Trains sound horns regardless of weather, so it helps to pay attention. Local knowledge is good.

Thanks again for everyone's posts. I read them all. Luckily, this morning I. Southport was clear so we departed at 8AM and safely arrived at Bucksport Marina at 4PM. It was a beautiful and uneventful journey. We plan to continue to Charleston this weekend. Now my attention turns to the low ceilings forecasted tomorrow which may prevent me from flying home from Myrtle Beach International to Burlington, NC. Thanks again. This forum has been invaluable to me over the last few months.

JimW said:

Regardless of your comfort level, there will most certainly be someone else out there that is navigating beyond their comfort level who is "sure" they can handle it . . . And that is where the trouble begins, have another cup of coffee, relax, go down below and do some housekeeping in the engine room and wait for the fog to lift.

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Great advice!!!

FlyWright said:

I'm surprised how many pleasure boaters, especially anglers in small boats, wander around in fog without the use of radar, radios or foghorns.

I run all the time with the radar on to keep my familiarity and proficiency up to par. If the radar or autopilot are not working, I won't enter the fog.

When I enter fog, if it's not already engaged, I'll use the autopilot to allow for better course control while I scan the gauges. I use my Fogmate foghorn control on my air horns to announce my presence. I continually scan multiple GPS displays and cross check them with the radar. The radios are tuned to 16 and 13 or the local VTS Ch 14.

When done right, I find it takes great concentration in congested or constrained waters. It's much like flying an instrument approach in instrument meteorological conditions. I normally don't socialize much during these stretches when guests are aboard.

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Exactly.

Maybe because I am so new to boating, I always assumed that every system, AIS, Nav lights, Radar, Autopilot, etc, is turned on when the engine is turned on.

I've never operated Dauntless without the Radar on. I always thought every boater was the same. How else can you understand what your Radar can see or not see, if you are not looking at in good visibility?

In 2016 when I had my nephews on the boat, during the first weeks, I had them ID each radar contact on the Navigation Chart (Radar only does radar, no charts)

Once I left the US, I no longer had any charts on the Raymarine Radar. I quickly realized that I preferred the separation, as it made me meld the different returns in my head and identify each return on the chart.

Also, you need to manually adjust your radar for different sea conditions to optimize its capability. Another reason why you must run in in good visibility, how else will you know how to adjust it when you can't see anything??

FLIRs were not made for fog. I think they will not work very well and even more problematic is that they may not be showing you what you think it is. But I have not tried them myself.
Only radar can "see" thru a medium, such as fog.

Another good reason to always operate the radar when underway is to promote the longevity of your radar system. Keeping the radar operating on a continuous basis keeps the electronics warm and drives out moisture. Keeping the antenna active keeps corrosion down on the operating mechanism and will help keep spoking off the display. Keeping the display active will help maintain some screens refresh rate. Few trawlers operate frequently enough to actually wear out the radar. Corrosion will be your worst enemy. YMMV
Ron

Most 'older' radars will have a magnetron life limited to about 3,000 hrs. Dependent upon how they are used and which exact model you get radar units that are newer can achieve about 2-4 times that life cycle.

You are quite correct regarding the magnetron life of older systems. Most are becoming obsolete and are beyond their design life. Keeping them active will help retain their refresh rate and screen contrast. Sadly, 3,000 hours of actual cruising is far more than 90% of cruiser will do in their entire life. YMMV
Ron

While using the radar under all conditions is good training, many of those thousands of hours would be wasted as training too.

Open water with few contacts or narrow, windy ICW where paying attention is probably more important than radar fiddling has limited training use.

Train when its valuable, but every hour underway isnt all that valuable.

If you need that much training, maybe instruction is in order more than endless hours with little real value experience.

CaptTom said:

Cruising New England and the Maritimes, you can't really say "don't go in fog" or you never would. We left Halifax last year in almost zero visibility, and that's a busy harbor. We did check in with traffic control and have AIS, so that helped.

We have a routine. When the visibility gets below 1/2 to 1/4 mile or so, we flip on the lights, foghorn and radar, and all eyes are on lookout. Then keep going.

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I agree with you. Lost count of the number of times we ventured out in fog especially when heading home. With radar and GPS I find it no big deal BUT NEVER AT 8 KNOTS.

Proper caution, radar observance, sounding device (horn) and reduced speed have always safely got us to our destination.

8 knots is hardly the determining factor.....location and obstructions would be my orimary concern.

8 knots might be my top speed in fog, but then again...location and expected hazards are the limiters.

I spent a big part of my career in the USCG flying around blind in fog, low clouds at 80 knots....knowing where you were and what you might encounter was the trick. That was pre radar and gps, even loran for what I flew.

psneeld said:

8 knots is hardly the determining factor.....location and obstructions would be my orimary concern.

8 knots might be my top speed in fog, but then again...location and expected hazards are the limiters.

I spent a big part of my career in the USCG flying around blind in fog, low clouds at 80 knots....knowing where you were and what you might encounter was the trick. That was pre radar and gps, even loran for what I flew.

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To each his own and what he is comfortable with. In heavy fog, I sometimes crawl. If there is 50-100 yards visibility then faster but never on plane

My speed in the fog varies depending on the proximity and quantity of traffic. I don’t run with the radar on unless there is reason to believe it will be needed. That said if I think I see fog or heavy rain ahead, it goes on. I do turn all instruments on before leaving the dock and that includes testing the radar. If I’m running at night the radar is on. The first day of any vacation trip is run with the radar on as a get reacquainted to all systems.

foggysail said:

To each his own and what he is comfortable with. In heavy fog, I sometimes crawl. If there is 50-100 yards visibility then faster but never on plane

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My point being... the diffetence between 5 to 8 knots is not enough for me to change much habit wise.

5 to 8 is one thing...10 to 12 or more starts to change the equation in very reduced visibility.

Sure there are circumstances to crawl, but only visibility is only part of the situation.

I was told many years ago, if you have RADAR, it should be ON regardless of the visibility.
That is your best legal defense in case of an accident.

OldDan1943 said:

I was told many years ago, if you have RADAR, it should be ON regardless of the visibility.
That is your best legal defense in case of an accident.

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Only if you cant articulate clearly why the prevailing conditions just didnt warrant it and it in many cases it is a distraction rather than assistance to the one watchstander recreational mariner.

Then again, you better have your ducks and credentials in a row, no matter what you say.

Then again, if you had a collision in clear blue and 22, not sure how much the radar on or off matters. If you have that collision and still had the radar on, and it had ARPA or similar, you are cooked more than saying it was so nice I didnt think it necessary.

psneeld said:

My point being... the diffetence between 5 to 8 knots is not enough for me to change much habit wise.

5 to 8 is one thing...10 to 12 or more starts to change the equation in very reduced visibility.

Sure there are circumstances to crawl, but only visibility is only part of the situation.

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^^^^^^

A lot of talk about what is and isn't safe based on opinion without hard numbers. I did a little number crunching.

Assumptions:

Velocity (V) = 8kts
1 mile = 5280 ft.
1 Kilometer (km) = 1.15078 statute mile
1 kph = 9.20624 mph


(5280 * 9.20624) = 48,608.9472 ft/hr

(48,608.9472/60)/60 = 13.5024 Ft/second

8 kph = 13.5024 Ft/second

1/4 mile = 1320 ft

1/4 mile @ 8 kph = 97.760 seconds.

So at 8 kph, it will take you 97.760 seconds to travel 1/4 mile. That should be plenty of time to see an obstruction in 1/4 mile visibility. @ 220 yards (1/8 mile) it's 48.88 seconds.

Now it comes down to the area being navigated. If I were in a river or the ICW, then I would slow down below 8 kts in 1/4 mile visibility. If I were in open water, then it would be 8 kts right down to 200 yards of visibility with Radar and GPS running. All my courses are pre-plotted in 2 seperate GPS units.

Shrew said:

A lot of talk about what is and isn't safe based on opinion without hard numbers. I did a little number crunching.

Assumptions:

Velocity (V) = 8kts
1 mile = 5280 ft.
1 Kilometer (km) = 1.15078 statute mile
1 kph = 9.20624 mph
1/4 mile @ 8 kph = 97.760 seconds...

So at 8 kph, it will take you 97.760 seconds to travel 1/4 mile. That should be plenty of time to see an obstruction in 1/4 mile visibility. @ 220 yards (1/8 mile) it's 48.88 seconds.

Now it comes down to the area being navigated. If I were in a river or the ICW, then I would slow down below 8 kts in 1/4 mile visibility. If I were in open water, then it would be 8 kts right down to 200 yards of visibility with Radar and GPS running. All my courses are pre-plotted in 2 seperate GPS units.

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I think your conclusions are spot on.

But I'm confused by the math.

1 nautical mile is about 1.15 statute miles. A knot is one nautical MPH.

Kilometers and statute miles aren't even needed in this equation.

Solving for T (Time):

60D/S=T (in minutes)
(60*.5)/8 = T
30/8 = T
3.75 = T
You cover 1/2 mile in a bit less than 4 minutes at 8 knots

(60*.25)/8 = T
15/8 = T
1.875 = T
So a quarter mile is a little less than 2 minutes at 8 knots.

Continuing down, it's 56 seconds to cover 1/8 nautical mile.

To check my math (and I always do), 8 knots is 16 half-miles an hour. So I have gone one half-mile in one sixteenth of an hour. Or a little less than 4 minutes. Check.

Two minutes is long enough to take appropriate action on my boat. At 1/8 mile visibility (250 yards, more or less) I'd still be OK, but I'd probably slow down a little to add margin.

Shrew said:

So at 8 kph, it will take you 97.760 seconds to travel 1/4 mile. That should be plenty of time to see an obstruction in 1/4 mile visibility. @ 220 yards (1/8 mile) it's 48.88 seconds.

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This all sounds good if your obstruction is a fixed buoy but if it's another boat heading for you your decision time will be cut in half.

one reason I believe you are required to turn nav lights on is to assist in orientation.

just because you can see a certain distance, distinguishing the target identity and movement is reduced some.

This all sounds good if your obstruction is a fixed buoy bit if it's another boat heading for you your decision time will be cut in half.

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IF he is going as fast as you. I've tracked guys going over 20 knots in bad visibility


And those moving objects that might hit you can come from any direction. Your reaction time is reduced by the amount of time you have been paying attention to another task (say looking at your gauges or reaching for a drink) or in another direction. Radar helps overcome the multi-direction issue.