Adding a Jog Lever

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eagle419

eagle419

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
261
Location
Australia
I'm looking at adding a jog lever for rapid rudder control when close quarter handling.

Current thought is to add a lever to the Raymarine Evolution hydraulic pilot.

Another possible approach may be to add a lever control to the hydraulic circuit.

Anybody done either of these?
 
I have a jog lever with my Comnav autopilot, probably pretty similar to what Raymarine offers. I use it in the cockpit primary for fishing. Works well.
 
They're used on the commercial fishing fleet here. Not a wheel to be seen on the helm nowadays. The captains prefer them connected directly to the steering for NFU (no follow up) steering. Nudge the joystick a little one way or the other & that's where the rudder stays. I cant ever remember wiring anything for follow-up steering. ComNav makes a good unit.
 
caltexflanc said:
Check out the Jastram line. I like the followup units, more intuitive for the rec boater. See the "lever controllers" section. Got to use one on another guys boat and loved it.

Marine Steering - Jastram Engineering Ltd. - Marine Hydraulic Cylinders, Steering Systems, Digital Ship Controls and Boat Motor Starters - Product Specifications

But they make regular jog levers too.
Click to expand...

Thanks George, good info.

I'm thinking that NFU would suit me better for close quarters control - not enough free hands to hold jog lever whilst working throttle and shift. I need the rudder to remain where it is when the lever is let go.
 
Ken E. said:
I have a jog lever with my Comnav autopilot, probably pretty similar to what Raymarine offers. I use it in the cockpit primary for fishing. Works well.
Click to expand...

Ken, do you have FU or NFU system?

I don't think that Raymarine offers a jog lever option these days, but we'll see.
 
Mine is a NFU. As Boomerang described, you nudge the lever and the rudders move and stay in that position. For shorthanded fishing while running downriggers and changing baits, it works very well.
 
Libra came with this 'steering' lever in the photo when I brought her over last year and this is my first experience with such a thing. I didn't know what to think of it when I surveyed her as I could not get the hang of it then. It is 'variable speed' in that the further you push left or right, the higher the flow rate of hydraulic. You can feather the rudder or put her hard over right quickly if desired. That takes a bit of getting used to.
After a bit of use I know what I think of it now. Nice!! I expect the next time I touch the wheel is when this lever fails. Pilot for open water and lever in close so no use for the wheel in most cases.
It is NFU and the only connection to the AP70 as far as I know is that it kicks the pilot to standby when the lever is actuated. It worked as a stand alone to steer before I added the new AP this Spring.
Very nice and I highly recommend it.
 

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eagle419 said:
Thanks George, good info.

I'm thinking that NFU would suit me better for close quarters control - not enough free hands to hold jog lever whilst working throttle and shift. I need the rudder to remain where it is when the lever is let go.
Click to expand...

I have had FU steering integrated with Simrad autopilots on two boats. Simrad FU levers have graduated scales that coincide with the actual rudder angle. In operation, the steering lever stays where you leave it. It is NOT spring loaded. You 'command' or 'specify' a rudder deflection with the lever and the rudder 'follows up' to the commanded angle. For example, move the steering lever quickly 25° to port and let go. The pump will move the rudder port 25° and stop. It is easy and foolproof to center the helm by simply moving the lever to 0°.

NFU steering moves the rudder as long as you move the stick or press the button. Let go and the rudder stops where it is. This is fine underway, but at low or no speed, you don't know the rudder angle unless you have another independent rudder angle indicator, which many do.

I found FU steering to be much easier and more precise, but that's just my opinion.
 
Thanks Bill and Larry,

As always there's more than one way to go with this. Here I was thinking that NFU was the way, but FU without a return spring also looks good.
I've got a large rudder indicator centre panel, so that helps.
 
With a jog stick I would be sure the rudder position indicator was very reliable.
 
Check how fast your AP pump can move rudder from lock to lock. Mine is kind of slow compared to cranking the wheel. I wonder if AP pump runs at a higher speed using a jog lever?
 
LarryM said:
I have had FU steering integrated with Simrad autopilots on two boats. Simrad FU levers have graduated scales that coincide with the actual rudder angle. In operation, the steering lever stays where you leave it. It is NOT spring loaded. You 'command' or 'specify' a rudder deflection with the lever and the rudder 'follows up' to the commanded angle. For example, move the steering lever quickly 25° to port and let go. The pump will move the rudder port 25° and stop. It is easy and foolproof to center the helm by simply moving the lever to 0°.

NFU steering moves the rudder as long as you move the stick or press the button. Let go and the rudder stops where it is. This is fine underway, but at low or no speed, you don't know the rudder angle unless you have another independent rudder angle indicator, which many do.

I found FU steering to be much easier and more precise, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

That was my experience as well. Thanks for articulating it better than I could!
 
LarryM said:
I have had FU steering integrated with Simrad autopilots on two boats. Simrad FU levers have graduated scales that coincide with the actual rudder angle. In operation, the steering lever stays where you leave it. It is NOT spring loaded. You 'command' or 'specify' a rudder deflection with the lever and the rudder 'follows up' to the commanded angle. For example, move the steering lever quickly 25° to port and let go. The pump will move the rudder port 25° and stop. It is easy and foolproof to center the helm by simply moving the lever to 0°.

NFU steering moves the rudder as long as you move the stick or press the button. Let go and the rudder stops where it is. This is fine underway, but at low or no speed, you don't know the rudder angle unless you have another independent rudder angle indicator, which many do.

I found FU steering to be much easier and more precise, but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Not familiar with these - trying to wrap my head around the physics of the hydraulics and a single RAM at the rudder....

So if you turn your wheel to move the rudder, does the FU lever also get "pushed" to a new position?
 
boathealer said:
Not familiar with these - trying to wrap my head around the physics of the hydraulics and a single RAM at the rudder....

So if you turn your wheel to move the rudder, does the FU lever also get "pushed" to a new position?
Click to expand...

No, when you move the steering wheel, the FU lever does not move. It is just an electronic control that tells the autopilot to turn the rudder to the desired position angle. When the FU lever is in operation the steering wheel remains stationary.

Both the steering wheel/pump and the autopilot pump have internal check valves that isolate them from one another. The RAM reacts to whatever pressure it sees, regardless of the source.

As for the single ram, it contains a 2-sided piston with hydraulic pressure applied to one side or the other, depending upon which way the wheel or autopilot pump provides pressure.
 
LarryM said:
No, when you move the steering wheel, the FU lever does not move. It is just an electronic control that tells the autopilot to turn the rudder to the desired position angle. When the FU lever is in operation the steering wheel remains stationary.

Both the steering wheel/pump and the autopilot pump have internal check valves that isolate them from one another. The RAM reacts to whatever pressure it sees, regardless of the source.

As for the single ram, it contains a 2-sided piston with hydraulic pressure applied to one side or the other, depending upon which way the wheel or autopilot pump provides pressure.
Click to expand...

I think I see what you are saying. But somewhere up there you (or others) implied that the (specifically FU, not NFU) lever being centered indicated that the rudder was therefore centered.

If the wheel can move the rudder off-center independently, then how can the lever indicate the rudder position?

:confused:
 
boathealer said:
I think I see what you are saying. But somewhere up there you (or others) implied that the (specifically FU, not NFU) lever being centered indicated that the rudder was therefore centered.

If the wheel can move the rudder off-center independently, then how can the lever indicate the rudder position?

:confused:
Click to expand...

The FU lever is only in play when engaged/active. When the autopilot is in standby mode, it doesn't matter where the lever it is pointed.

As an aside, you always want to center it before engaging when underway so you don't begin an immediate unintended turn. Ask me how I know . . . . :facepalm:
 
Ski in NC said:
Check how fast your AP pump can move rudder from lock to lock. Mine is kind of slow compared to cranking the wheel. I wonder if AP pump runs at a higher speed using a jog lever?
Click to expand...

Excellent point thanks Ski, although even if the rudder is still a bit slow stop to stop, using a lever still leaves two hands free for the other stuff.
 
LarryM said:
No, when you move the steering wheel, the FU lever does not move. It is just an electronic control that tells the autopilot to turn the rudder to the desired position angle. When the FU lever is in operation the steering wheel remains stationary.

Both the steering wheel/pump and the autopilot pump have internal check valves that isolate them from one another. The RAM reacts to whatever pressure it sees, regardless of the source.

As for the single ram, it contains a 2-sided piston with hydraulic pressure applied to one side or the other, depending upon which way the wheel or autopilot pump provides pressure.
Click to expand...

Thanks Larry - another concise explanation. I've now come down on the side of the FU lever (without spring loading) controlling the Autopilot, assuming that the AP pump is fast enough for rapid stop to stop rudder movement.

If this doesn't work I'll explore the direct hydraulic control approach, although this might be too complicated/expensive given that I don't want to replace the wheel, just add direct control in certain circumstances.
 
In the cases of Libra, the wheel runs a manual helm pump and a crappy one at that with about 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. The low ratio against a very large rudder makes for very physical hand steering in any kind of seas.
The jog lever and the pilot are run by an engine driven hydraulic pump of significant capacity backed up by a 24 volt bulkhead mounted electric over hydraulic pump also of significant capacity.
In this scenario, the jog lever can put the rudder hard over in about 1/4 of the time it takes me with the wheel. Very fast.
 
eagle419 said:
Thanks Simi,
I reckon the extra hydraulic plumbing would be a major hassle, so I'm hoping the simpler AP solution will be the way to go.
Click to expand...


Fair enough, not sure what was involved just figured left to right or up and down on a tractor would/should be the same as port to starb on a boat without the 5x boat tax.

Add. OK, so the ones you are after are electric added in with the autopilot?
 
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klee wyck said:
In the cases of Libra, the wheel runs a manual helm pump and a crappy one at that with about 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. The low ratio against a very large rudder makes for very physical hand steering in any kind of seas.
The jog lever and the pilot are run by an engine driven hydraulic pump of significant capacity backed up by a 24 volt bulkhead mounted electric over hydraulic pump also of significant capacity.
In this scenario, the jog lever can put the rudder hard over in about 1/4 of the time it takes me with the wheel. Very fast.
Click to expand...

Libra's systems sound solid Bill.

Over here in the 70s when my boat was built swing moorings were the norm, and the need to thread your way through overcrowded marinas was unheard of.

I imagine Libra, as well as looking tough and terrific, would be very handy in canals and locks.
 
Last edited:
klee wyck said:
In the cases of Libra, the wheel runs a manual helm pump and a crappy one at that with about 3 1/2 turns lock to lock. The low ratio against a very large rudder makes for very physical hand steering in any kind of seas.
The jog lever and the pilot are run by an engine driven hydraulic pump of significant capacity backed up by a 24 volt bulkhead mounted electric over hydraulic pump also of significant capacity.
In this scenario, the jog lever can put the rudder hard over in about 1/4 of the time it takes me with the wheel. Very fast.
Click to expand...

With only 3 1/2 turn lock to lock, a jog arm is almost unnecessary. On my previous boat, it was 31 turns lock to lock (no, there was no air in the system) and that jog arm was used exclusively when the AP was in standby mode.
 
Simi 60 said:
Fair enough, not sure what was involved just figured left to right or up and down on a tractor would/should be the same as port to starb on a boat without the 5x boat tax.

Add. OK, so the ones you are after are electric added in with the autopilot?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that struck me as the easiest way to go Simi. I don't feel too confident getting amongst the hydraulics.

Of course as pointed out here, the AP pump might be just too slow. I don't want to change AP brands just because of this, so I'm looking for a Raymarine expert who's had experience with modifying systems using third party stuff.
 

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FF said:
With a jog stick I would be sure the rudder position indicator was very reliable.
Click to expand...

Thinking more about your comment FF, you're spot on.

In fact, when coming alongside I'm often on the side deck reaching inside with a hand on the throttle and gear shift. So feeling the lever rather than having to look at the indicator is the obvious way to go.
 
I would really love to have a jog lever on Kinship. I am about 7 turns lock to lock and it is a pain sometimes when trying to dock. The AP will move the rudder faster than I can spin the wheel. A NFU jog lever would be great to quickly turn the rudder hard to port or starboard when docking. I think that a NFU is what I would like because I am used to putting the rudder in a certain position and having it stay there. I have a good rudder position indicator at the helm.

I don't think that Raymarine makes them anymore. So if anyone knows of a solution, I'd be interested.
 
Where do I hit the "Like" button.

Keep us posted on retrofits.
 
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