Another holding tank question

Gordon B said:

Hi to all,
We have a 41' Defever with 2 heads. There are two of us living aboard. How big of a waste holding tank do you recommend? Where are most of the tanks located?

Thanks

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While you study solutions to your problem, I recommend that you consider PVC piping over hoses for as much of your waste system as possible. PVC has (IMHO) many benefits on recreational boats including cost, ease of installation and no stink ever!

Personally, I avoid ...and recommend avoiding expensive on board waste processing systems. They can provide a "feel good" attitude but they do not allow waste dumping in any no discharge zone.

foggysail said:

Personally, I avoid ...and recommend avoiding expensive on board waste processing systems. They can provide a "feel good" attitude but they do not allow waste dumping in any no discharge zone.

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Sort of a moot point for those of us who aren't much affected by NDZs. I'm not at all thinking "feel good;" I'm thinking less money in pump-out costs. Takes a while to amortize, though...

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Sort of a moot point for those of us who aren't much affected by NDZs. I'm not at all thinking "feel good;" I'm thinking less money in pump-out costs. Takes a while to amortize, though...

-Chris

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Moot though it may be, you are NOT allowed by federal law to dump treated waste into a no discharge zone. And there is no cost to pump out in any area not designated to be a no discharge zone.

And further, pump outs in Maryland and most states are not going to bankrupt your boating.

"Pumpout Fee - Most of the pumpouts in Maryland have been funded through the Clean Vessel Act and charge a fee of no more than $5.00 for the first 50 gallons of sewage pumped plus an additional 10 cents per gallon for every gallon above 50. However marinas that funded their pumpouts privately may charge more than this. Boaters should call ahead to check fees"

Mounting the poop pump above the waste tank does make it nicer to R&R the unit.

The hassle is above the tank the pump will frequently dry out and cause the need for the R&R, the unit just wont suck because one of the valves has dried paper or gunk in it.

High quality RV waste valves exist and can shut off a low point drain with security., and are easy to maintain.

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Fwiw, Foggy, the Chesapeake Bay, which is the majority of MD waters and also a good chunk of DE and VA coastal waters, is NOT an NDZ...there's only one small NDZ on it--Herring Bay. The discharge of treated waste from a USCG certified Type I or II MSD is allowed everywhere else in the Bay.

In fact, once you get south of New England, there are very few NDZs of any size till you get to the FL Keys, which are one of only two on the whole Gulf of Mexico...Destin Harbor is the other one. On the west coast, SoCal is a hotbed of NDZs but once you get north of Santa Barbara Richardson Bay (a small harbor off SF Bay was the only one until the enviro-zealots finally succeeded in making Puget Sound an NDZ. Inland, almost all lakes are NDZs, but the discharge of treated waste is legal on at least 90% of the rivers. The Great Lakes became NDZs under a treaty with Canada since long before there were any US marine sanitation laws...but strangely the St. Lawrence Seaway is not, although there was some talk a year or so ago about making 10 miles of it an NDZ. Haven't heard anything about it since then.

So there are a lot more waters where a treatment device is legal than you think.

I've always considered it to be ultimate irony that the very DAY RI's statewide NDZ law went into effect, a massive sewage treatment plant spill in Providence closed all the beachs and shellfish beds on that end of Narragansett Bay for a week.

And btw, those lakes you named are the ones whose prohibition against discharging sewage and gray water was in place since long before there were any marine sanitation regs. The rules on those lakes were grandfathered into marine sanitation laws at the time they were enacted. And I've heard they ARE enforced!

HEADMISTRESS!

Your above post earned a "THANKS" which I just sent.

The entire NDZ subject has become irrational. I am waiting for a local zealot to introduce legislation forcing the tens of thousands of harbor seals in our local waters to comply

^^ I have to agree and its a problem in the PNW as well. We were at Skyline marina for a night in August and didnt realize until morning there was an SDZ right behind us on the dock....

foggysail said:

Moot though it may be, you are NOT allowed by federal law to dump treated waste into a no discharge zone. And there is no cost to pump out in any area not designated to be a no discharge zone.

And further, pump outs in Maryland and most states are not going to bankrupt your boating.

"Pumpout Fee - Most of the pumpouts in Maryland have been funded through the Clean Vessel Act and charge a fee of no more than $5.00 for the first 50 gallons of sewage pumped plus an additional 10 cents per gallon for every gallon above 50. However marinas that funded their pumpouts privately may charge more than this. Boaters should call ahead to check fees"

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Of course, not allowed to discharge in an NDZ. Irrelevant; not my point.

Yes, there is a cost to pump out in some areas that are not designated an NDZ (inshore, for example).

"Most" of the MD pump-out facilities were subsidized, so $5 a pop is normal and not gonna break the budget... but none of those are particularly convenient for us.

"However marinas that funded their pumpouts privately may charge more than this."

Yep, THAT'S the one I'm faced with. $20 each pump adds up faster, especially when we need to pump out about every 4-5 days while on the boat... when it's only the two of us aboard. With visitors, frequency increases.

That's about $20/week every week from mid-March through mid-Nov. Maybe 32 weeks (pump-outs) per year? $640/year? That's the point where a treatment system MAY become useful. (Even at $5/week at the subsidized facilities, plus a typical $5 tip each time, that becomes $320/year; harder to tell whether a treatment system would offset that effectively or not.)

Yes, I could take a boat ride to a cheaper pump-out... and spend diesel doing it. And we can't get offshore from here to pump-out in open water; not a viable option.

-Chris

WesK said:

Of course but I was replying to the suggestion to not flush after urinating.

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That doesn't leave sewage in the hoses either, just the bowl.

foggysail said:

HEADMISTRESS!
Your above post earned a "THANKS" which I just sent.
The entire NDZ subject has become irrational.

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It has indeed...and totally political. Which, come to think of it, explains WHY it's irrational.

Thanks for the thanks!

foggysail said:

Moot though it may be, you are NOT allowed by federal law to dump treated waste into a no discharge zone. And there is no cost to pump out in any area not designated to be a no discharge zone.

And further, pump outs in Maryland and most states are not going to bankrupt your boating.

"Pumpout Fee - Most of the pumpouts in Maryland have been funded through the Clean Vessel Act and charge a fee of no more than $5.00 for the first 50 gallons of sewage pumped plus an additional 10 cents per gallon for every gallon above 50. However marinas that funded their pumpouts privately may charge more than this. Boaters should call ahead to check fees"

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I know of a great marina in a great location with beautiful facilities including a large pool and a hot tub. It is not expensive and has a great weekly rate.

But pumpouts are $20. Plus tip.

There's a hook up at each slip so all the guy has to do is bring the hose, hook it up and hit the switch.

Hamrow said:

... We were at Skyline marina for a night in August and didnt realize until morning there was an SDZ right behind us on the dock....

View attachment 69321

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You need an enterprising SPO* start up service. Or fit butt plugs to the seals.
(* Seal Pump Out)

Chris, this somehow got lost in the clutter...

You responded to this from me: Better yet, if you have at least 5" clearance above the tank, put the discharge fitting on the top of it with a pickup tube inside that goes to the bottom. Even better, go with TWO discharge fittings--one dedicate to the deck pumpout, the other dedicated to the overboard discharge pump...eliminating the need for any y-valve or tee.

ranger42c said:

That's basically what I'd like. I'd gain capacity, too. Our tank is nominally 40 gallons... but reality is we have to pump out when it gets to about 26 gallons due to where the pump-out and vent fittings are on the side of the tank.

Thanks to a li'l gizmo called the Uniseal UNISEAL it's not that hard to relocate fittings on most tanks...seal the original fittings with a threaded plug and good wrap of Teflon tape.

Q: if the macerator pump is below the tank level (as is ours), will it pump from a pick-up tube through the top like that? Or does the pump have to be above the tank? Or does it matter?

Macerator pumps are rated to lift at least 4', so it should have no problem pulling the waste out of any tank that isn't taller than that. But what if you left the original discharge fitting in place and dedicated it to the macerator pump and installed a new pumpout fitting on the top?

Q: If using a single pump-out fitting and a T for both deck pump-out and macerator discharge... what's the downside of that T fitting?

I don't know that there always is one...there is when the only fitting is at the bottom of the tank because there's no way to shut off the flow of tank contents to the macerator if necessary--and we all know that macerators never need attention when the tank is empty. If you were to go with the pair of "high and low" discharge fittings, you could put a shutoff valve on the on the one dedicated to macerator.

Give me a shout via PM or email if you want to brainstorm the specifics of relocating your discharge and vent fittings in more detail than is practical here.

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HeadMistress said:

Chris, this somehow got lost in the clutter...

Thanks to a li'l gizmo called the Uniseal UNISEAL it's not that hard to relocate fittings on most tanks...seal the original fittings with a threaded plug and good wrap of Teflon tape.

Macerator pumps are rated to lift at least 4', so it should have no problem pulling the waste out of any tank that isn't taller than that. But what if you left the original discharge fitting in place and dedicated it to the macerator pump and installed a new pumpout fitting on the top?

I don't know that there always is one...there is when the only fitting is at the bottom of the tank because there's no way to shut off the flow of tank contents to the macerator if necessary--and we all know that macerators never need attention when the tank is empty. If you were to go with the pair of "high and low" discharge fittings, you could put a shutoff valve on the on the one dedicated to macerator.

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Thanks, Peggie, appreciate the feedback. It's a "I only just now thought about it" idea, even though I've known about and appreciated the differences between bottom-emptying and out-the-top discharge designs.

Previously, I'd only been thinking about the deck pump-out improvement... but once we measured our actual capacity versus nominal capacity... it also began to come clear that out the top could mean more capacity if I can relocate the vent and deck discharge hoses to the top and if I can also relocate the source hose from the electric toilet to the holding tank from upper side to top. Didn't realize it'd maybe only take about 5" clearance, and I need to measure to see whether I've got that...

Anyway, the part about the macerator hose out the top too finally clicked, too... since that seems an easy way to keep that discharge line "clean" in case the macerator needs service. Ours actually needs replacing, haven't used it since approx 2008-ish I think... and it actually hasn't worked at all in a couple years...

Anyway, useful to know about the Uniseal and so forth; thanks!

-Chris

If you are going to do a holding tank upgrade, go ahead and get one of the Sealand diaphram pumps, especially if you are going to be using the macerator option frequently. Very reliable, great suction, and not prone to the "drying out" phenomena mentioned earlier. It's an upgrade in and of itself if you are having issues getting the tank vacated thoroughly and expediently.

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caltexflanc said:

If you are going to do a holding tank upgrade, go ahead and get one of the Sealand diaphram pumps, especially if you are going to be using the macerator option frequently. Very reliable, great suction, and not prone to the "drying out" phenomena mentioned earlier. It's an upgrade in and of itself if you are having issues getting the tank vacated thoroughly and expediently.

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Do they also macerate the discharge at the same time?

-Chris

No...diaphragm overboard discharge pumps don't macerate, they do what Ed McKiernan (pres. of SeaLand for several decades, now retired) used to call it: "musherate."

However, unless you're using toilet paper that doesn't dissolve completely fairly quickly, it's not necessary to macerate tank contents. Solids are 75% water, so they dissolve almost completely by the time they reach the tank and so does "quick dissolve" TP.

And btw, I second the recommendation for the SeaLand T-series pump. I had one on my own boat that was 11 years old when I sold the boat and still going strong. Very rarely used except to rinse out the tank (done very discretely 'cuz I was on a No Discharge lake).

caltexflanc said:

If you are going to do a holding tank upgrade, go ahead and get one of the Sealand diaphram pumps, especially if you are going to be using the macerator option frequently. Very reliable, great suction, and not prone to the "drying out" phenomena mentioned earlier.

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^^^^^^

@HeadMistress Thanks for freely sharing your knowledge with us. It will be extremely valuable for setting up my system.

Everyone else, thanks for asking the questions for me and for the responses. You guys and ladies have been helpful.

Until I get the plans for the boat I am planning to build, I won't know the specifics. I do know it's going to take some creativity with the hull shape I have chosen to set up all my systems.

You're welcome to give me a shout via PM or email if you'd like some help in figuring out the sanitation system. Meanwhile, I THINK you may find my book helpful (The title in my signature is a link to it).

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

HeadMistress said:

You're welcome to give me a shout via PM or email.....

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Any lovely lady who uses the alias "Head Mistress" excites me. CHUCKLE

"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein[/QUOTE]

A brief explanation of the sanitary system: singing, "Push the little valve down, the music goes round and round and it comes out here," or 'over there'.

The difficulty lies in understanding "the little valve" or in this case the pump, be it manual, electric or a vacufluse

OldDan1943 said:

A brief explanation of the sanitary system: singing, "Push the little valve down, the music goes round and round and it comes out here," or 'over there'.

The difficulty lies in understanding "the little valve" or in this case the pump, be it manual, electric or a vacufluse

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It isn't difficult at all for those who read the directions BEFORE all else fails...

HeadMistress said:

It isn't difficult at all for those who read the directions BEFORE all else fails...

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If you don't eat it first don't put it in the bowl.

HeadMistress said:

No...diaphragm overboard discharge pumps don't macerate, they do what Ed McKiernan (pres. of SeaLand for several decades, now retired) used to call it: "musherate."

However, unless you're using toilet paper that doesn't dissolve completely fairly quickly, it's not necessary to macerate tank contents. Solids are 75% water, so they dissolve almost completely by the time they reach the tank and so does "quick dissolve" TP.

And btw, I second the recommendation for the SeaLand T-series pump.

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Thanks; useful to know.

Our current non-working discharge pump is a 12V Jabsco 18590-2092 which macerates outbound -- but we also have an electric freshwater toilet, which macerates inbound anyway -- so I'm suspecting the macerate part isn't a big issue for us.

Hadn't known about any potential issue with impeller pumps not being used for a while; our fishbox pump-out (same Jabsco pump) sits for about 11 months, then works fine. Still, useful to know.

And actually, I have a spare pump, since we replaced the fishbox pump once before figuring out that the pump worked fine, and it was really the seacock that was clogged to death.

Anyway, I'm still thinking about a conversion to top-discharging ports from our tank, and don't really expect to do anything about all that until I have a boatload of spare time, find a reason to actually replace the existing macerator pump (offshore trip?), and have no other projects on the list. (Uh huh.) And I still have to move a bunch of stuff in order to get close enough to the tank to measure overhead clearance...

But for planning/cogitating info... if I use a Uniseal, what's good material for the down-pipe? PVC? I think I've ready where you've said it's cut at 45° at the bottom, so the long end touches the tank? How is the pipe mechanically fasted so it stays down there? Or does the Uniseal do that sufficiently? Or is that a complete non-issue?

Started to PM, but then thought maybe additional factoids might helps other folks who are planning systems, too...

-Chris

The AT has to diaphragm mud pumps, one from the stool to the tank and one for the overboard discharge. I am told, the new AT's have a macerator pump from the stool to the tank and a mud pump overboard.

But for planning/cogitating info... if I use a Uniseal, what's good material for the down-pipe? PVC?

Sched 40 PVC works fine.

I think I've ready where you've said it's cut at 45° at the bottom, so the long end touches the tank?
It should be cut at about 25 degrees...any flatter and undissolved TP or solids can get caught under it.45 degrees leaves too much in the tank.

How is the pipe mechanically fasted so it stays down there? Or does the Uniseal do that sufficiently? Or is that a complete non-issue?

The Uniseal is a rubber grommet that seals the pipe completely. A little Dawn or K-Y (both of which are water soluble so dry out and don't remain permanently slipperty) to grease it to put the pipe through it is all that's needed. The Uniseal is so "leak proof" that the only place I don't recommend it is a discharge fitting at the bottom of the tank..and that's only because I believer it's beter to err on the side of caution if you're gonna err at all.
Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

HeadMistress said:

But for planning/cogitating info... if I use a Uniseal, what's good material for the down-pipe? PVC?

Sched 40 PVC works fine.

I think I've ready where you've said it's cut at 45° at the bottom, so the long end touches the tank?
It should be cut at about 25 degrees...any flatter and undissolved TP or solids can get caught under it.45 degrees leaves too much in the tank.

How is the pipe mechanically fasted so it stays down there? Or does the Uniseal do that sufficiently? Or is that a complete non-issue?

The Uniseal is a rubber grommet that seals the pipe completely. A little Dawn or K-Y (both of which are water soluble so dry out and don't remain permanently slipperty) to grease it to put the pipe through it is all that's needed. The Uniseal is so "leak proof" that the only place I don't recommend it is a discharge fitting at the bottom of the tank..and that's only because I believer it's beter to err on the side of caution if you're gonna err at all.

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Nifty, thanks!

I have visions of regaining maybe 4-8 gallons (?) capacity by relocating the discharge fixtures... simply because the current intake and vent fixtures on the side means some capacity loss. If I have sufficient overhead clearance.

Cheers!

-Chris

Why not just move all of 'em to the top? A piece of pvc pipe about 5-6" long would become the hose fittings (also for the discharge so make sure that pipe is long enough)...double clamp the hoses, plug the existing fittings with threaded plugs. This would also allow you to increase the vent to 1" and replace the vent thru-hull with an open 1" bulkhead thru-hull. You could even relocated the vent fitting on the tank to give you a shorter straighter vent line.

We can brainstorm it if you find you have the clearance above the tank.

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

Every time I brain storm, I get a head ache.

ranger42c said:

I have visions of regaining maybe 4-8 gallons (?) capacity by relocating the discharge fixtures... simply because the current intake and vent fixtures on the side means some capacity loss. If I have sufficient overhead clearance.

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HeadMistress said:

Why not just move all of 'em to the top?

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Ah. I wasn't clear; that's exactly what I would be intending to do. I meant relocating all the innies and outies.

It's actually the input hose (from the toilet) and vent line that are currently causing my decreased capacity. Just thinking a decent time to fix that -- given overhead clearance -- would be a decent time to do a better discharge system, too.

-Chris