Normal Engine RPM's

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mc14

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Sep 12, 2011
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7
I own a 1974 Willard Vega with a 50HP Perkins. The Perkins has about 3400 hours on it. After reading the owners manual, and the Perkins Engine Manual, I still can't find out what the normal RPM's should be while underway. I currently run between 2000 and 2300. Can anyone comment on that?
 
Sure I can comment on that. I had a Perkins 4-107 before re-powering w a 4-107 Mitsubishi. Your Perkins is rated for 36hp at 3000rpm, 42hp at 3600rpm, and 50hp at 4000rpm. I don't know how the other ratings figure in on it but the 36hp rating is the one you need to consider. It's been awhile w the numbers so check on the 36hp but 3000rpm is where you need to be. Run the engine at wide open throttle (WOT) under normal conditions. You should turn up to 3000rpm. If not you need to re-pitch the prop to attain 3000rpm. Then you can run 1800 to 2500rpm while cruising and not overload your engine. Willard over pitched the W30s one inch so top rpm was 2750 approx so it's very likely that's what your boat will do. And at 2750rpm your Perkins is only putting out about 33hp. That part is OK as it only takes about 18hp to cruise a bit over 6 knots. Hull speed is achieved at 7 knots and after you get your prop pitched correctly you should be able to achieve about 7 knots. By the way there's no "rpms", it's always rpm. I'd love to see some pics of your Willard in the* the photo gallery at the top of general discussion. Welcome to the forum and please participate with us. Also notice the Willard section near the bottom of the thread list. I'm anxious to see your boat Mike.
 
Hello,

*

I own a 77 Willard with a Perkins 4-108 and we run it at 2000 rpm.* I have not run it at 3000 or above like Eric discusses so I have no experience at that rpm.* We cruise right at 6 knots with 2000 rpm.

Keith Olive
 
Thanks for the skinny Eric, that is exactly what I was looking for. In fact, that's what seemed to be the sweet spot for the engine and what I have been running at. I will have the prop adjusted on my next pull. I have only owned her for a few months and it seems like she has been in the shop for most of that time. She is back with me now and I hope to have some pic's done and loaded within the next two weeks. Thanks again for the help and I look forward to participating in the forum.
 
Thanks Keith, that's where I have been running and the way I understand Eric, that's just about perfect. I only need to run her up to 3000 to check the pitch of my prop. Running at 3000 is wide open and you don't want to do that for long.

What type of oil pressure do you have, I have been running around 65 lbs which seems a bit high. Thanks again for the help.

Mike Connor
 
"18hp to cruise a bit over 6 knots."

18 hp should easily be had at 1600 to 1800. Look at the mfg HP graph.

Many folks would intentionally over size the prop (aka cruising prop) to bring the normal cruise down to quieter levels.

Just be sure , where ever you set the cruise rpm you can obtain 300rpm higher with the throttle.

In other words run WOT , note the rpm obtained and drop 300rpm or more to cruise.
 
Mike,

My oil pressure has been around 50 and my temp is 145, running at 2000 rpm.* Ran this way to Desolation Sound and Princess Louisa this summer.*

*

Keith
 
Kolive and mc 14,

Fred has this thing in his head that says a boat should be overpropped so if you buy into this or have any doubts about how to properly prop and load your engine talk to reputable propeller shops, read manuals and talk to engine distributors, manufacturers and OTHER people on this forum. Don't talk to one. Talk to as many as you have time for as opinions occasionally vary especially from mechanics. Engineers are best.
 
"Fred has this thing in his head that says a boat should be overpropped"

Not really , I think any boat with an oversized engine should be operated in its optimum range.

This boats engine is 100% oversized ,at 36 hp, really silly at 50hp , and only needs 18 hp but the mfg recommends a prop to absorb 36hp at WOT.

Since the boat will almost never be operated at WOT , the service life running at a more rational RPM is an easy way to extend engine life 2x or perhaps more.Fuel burn will be lower too.

The mfg recommends a WOT prop as some folks will actually cruise there.

If you ever wondered why the bare boat charter buckets in the Carib seldom see 1/5 of the engine service life a normal cruiser would , its from WOT from start to shutdown.

The mfg LOVE a cruiser with a WOT prop as at normal cruise RPM only a fraction (about 1/2- 1/3 ) the rated power at that RPM is being used.
This helps guarentee hassles on a new engine.
Any problems from underloading show up years later , off his tab , but on yours.

The poorer fuel burn is also not his problem.
 
If I was to over prop my engine (rated at 3000) to WOT at 2700rpm it is very obvious the engine will be overloaded at WOT. What about 2500rpm? 2300? 2400? Who knows at what rpm the engine will be overloaded and at what rpm it will be safe to operate. If it's getting dark and you want to get to an anchorage before dark and it's questionable if you'll make it you'll want to push the boat but you can only guess where the operational red line is and if you DO push it there's a good chance the engine would be overloaded and some engine parts could get damaged. If your'e propped correctly by the engine manufacturer's specifications you can get the most out of your engine and your boat and know your engine will not be damaged from overloading. But if fuel consumption is all you care about you can save a small amount by overpropping as Fred suggests.
 
I really appreciate the info on the proper size prop, makes sense to me. I will run her WOT the next time I'm out and post what I find. Then have the prop adjusted at my next pull. I'm really glad I found the forum and look forward to future visits.*I
 
"you'll want to push the boat but you can only guess where the operational red line"

For almost all setups 10% less rpm than WOT is a good red line.

I recommend 300rpm reduction to be even further down the power slope.

The question then is the boats operator skilled , and willing to operate the boat as set up.

Or Brain Dead and in need of a WOT forever prop and always accept the problems noise ,and service life that choice requires

DO it Your Way!
 
DavidM wrote:You are asking it to do something it was never designed to do, putting out peak torque at less than wot rpm.

And don't ever think about overpropping a modern, tubocharged, high output diesel. These are marginal enough at normal propping. Overprop and the exhaust gas temperature shoots up. That and the extra torque related mechanical stresses will kill them before their prime.
At great risk of starting something resembling the single vs twins debate, I have to make a couple of comments.

Unless you mean maximum torque, "peak torque"*is a moving target and is simply the highest torque obtained under a given condition. Maximum torque is always*produced well below WOT - whatever that means because a diesel engine doesn't have a throttle, it has a speed setting and a maximum fuel setting. If the engine reaches maximum speed the governor reduces fuel to maintain that speed. If it reaches maximum fuel flow, the governor reduces fuel*at that point. The lever on the*governor merely sets the balance point of a set of flyballs or an electronic null point, it doesn't do anything else.

A fixed pitch propeller's free running*torque demand is roughly the square of the rpm, as rpm increases, the torque required to spin it increases proportionally. That is why there is a difference between a propeller curve and an engine power curve.

An old mechanically governed NA diesel can easily be overloaded by "over propping"*or even*leaning a bit heavily on the power lever, or a sudden increase in current on the bow or even a sharp turn with a twin. The governor will deliver all the fuel it can up to the fuel stop in an attempt to reach the speed setting. The engine will smoke like crazy and will almost certainly run high exhaust temperatures. Even propped correctly this is often an issue because fuel is delivered more quickly than the engine can accelerate. In this case the overpropped powertrain won't necessarily wear due to higher mechanical stresses, it will suffer from high thermal stresses*and destroy the top end first.

The case described is very similar to tugboats or ice breakers*with engines that*are capable of producing far more torque than required for free running. They have a pair of propeller curves, free running in open water at full speed, and a second curve that reflects the much earlier rise (same torque but at a lower speed) that occurs when the boat speed is low due to heavy towing or restrained by ice or the prop turning in dense slush. They use a torque limiting governor that kicks in to*reduce fuel to limit torque to a predetermined relationship to rpm.

And this brings us up to the modern high strung turbocharged stallions that drive some*of the newest*boats. Because they are so well monitored by the engine control system the chance of overloading them due to a heavy hand on the power lever or overpropping is even less likely. The turbochargers are fitted with wastegates, the governor receives a signal from the inlet manifold so it knows how much air is available and if it is or is not within limits for the rpm or fuel flow that exist at that moment.

My take on this discussion is that, sure, you can overprop so as to bring the engine power curve more inline with the propeller torque curve but that will occur at a much lower horsepower output with a fixed pitch propeller so you will limit your top speed and power reserves. You will lose a broad band of speed and power options and increase the negative impact of headseas and winds. You will have to (or should)*reset your governor fuel stops and learn how to "ramp up" engine power like the big ships do.

As far as mechanical wear is concerned, a slower turning engine is far less prone to wear than a faster turning engine. The increased cylinder pressure and loads are easily handled by the bearings of an industrial or marine engine. I would concentrate on limiting thermal loads.
 
David and Rick,

Very good posts both and little to argue w or call wrong. FF, I think one would need to go down more than 10% to get to an engine speed that could be considered continuous or free of over loading on an over propped system. Five percent on a properly propped system (100rpm approx) but with an over propped boat (FL 300rpm over propped) you'd need to go down another 300 to get to safe territory but it's any man's guess. This means you could'nt come even close to 2000rpm (in excess of 500rpm below rated) before hitting never never land. FF says "For almost all setups 10% less rpm than WOT is a good red line.I recommend 300rpm reduction to be even further down the power slope." Sounds for sure you are a bit vague about where the cliff or the brick wall is FF. Exactly my point. The average boater would'nt know how to operate the boat without damage. So if one over props a boat it should be propped correctly before he sells it. Rick I think you achieved a great balance of deep tech and lay speak. Fully understandable. And enough information to not need to say where's the beef? Two things that come to mind on an over propped engine is that lube oil and coolant flow would be less but forces on many parts would be (it would seem) higher. I suspect though that due to the thermostat and the oil pressure relief valve that both fluids should be able to do their jobs as well as under normal loading. One set of parts in particular should wear much faster on the slower turning engine putting out the same power is the piston, cylinder and rings. There would be much more side loading on the piston and more pressure on the rings* ...especially keystone types. Pardon me for disagreeing w you Rick but I do think putting out the same amount of power at a lower engine speed will result in more wear at least with these parts. But I'll say this: If you had a 32 GB w 120 FL over propped 200rpm and could actually determine the rpm point where over loading starts and always operated it below that point it would be better than operating it propped normally by the book. One more comment I hang heavily on this post is that I doubt that any manufacturer would support over propping. Turbo, NA or whatever.
 
For my money this is pretty much a tempest in a teapot but if one was particularly worried about overheating from being overpropped an EGT gauge would answer the question at a pretty nominal cost.*
 
Hi Bob,

The EGT tells the exhaust gas temperature (if installed right) so we know how much heat is in the exhaust pipe. Can one make assumptions about what the temperature of critical engine parts are inside the engine? Say my exhaust valves are 1000 degrees when my EGT says X is the temp of my exhaust gas. Then I take the EGT off that engine and install it on another engine and run it at X EGT. Are my exhaust valves on the 2nd engine at 1000, 700 or 1200 degrees. A good temp for one engine may not be good for another. I don't know but perhaps you, Rick or David does.

*
 
It is quite plausible to have low EGTs and still overheat the engine coolant gauge*- such as would occur with plugged strainers, BO raw water pump, gummed up HX etc.
 
"The average boater wouldnt know how to operate the boat without damage."

We are talking about a cruiser , not the usual 100 hour dock queen champ , with a Greek captains hat.

The EGT gauge , and perhaps some nail polish pips on the tach would be a fine reminder , when the boat is loaned..

EGT is fine for adjusting long or short term power settings ,marine/industrial mfg have the limits published .

Also forgotten in this discussion is the wide (sometimes 2-1 ) difference in cont power and pleasure boat power.

A marine engine mfg will usually show 4 ratings , my preference is to use the 24/7 power output to set the long range cruise power.

A panic WOT run to the dock may fall into the 400hours a year use area , and be no problem at all.

All part of the art of maximizing the engine to the intended use.
 
Lets get back to basics here Fred. Why do you do this? I assume you overprop as you talk it up so much. What's the point? Why do it?
 
nomadwilly wrote:
Lets get back to basics here Fred. Why do you do this? I assume you overprop as you talk it up so much. What's the point? Why do it?
* * * ** I have the same question.
 
Yes ,

I have done it on our 90/90 and tho Volvo tells me I should run at 2500 under load ,

the cruise RPM to make the usual 6-6.5K (28 ft lwl) is far too high.

By proping to 2100-2200 at WOT we cruise 1600 for 6K and 1800 for as fast as we get.

Being over proped does not change the way the dual Balmars work on the start or house battery banks.

It also does not change the ability to engage the Adler Barbour cold plate mechanical drive.

It will absorb almost 10 hp warm box , but we never allow the box to get that warm .

The unit will bang the 2 plates down to -10F to solidify the 0f deg plate in 2 hours.

The box is special built so holding is 4 days , we move every 3rd , for constant temps.

The delight of cruising with as low a noise and vibration level is no where as delightful as pure sailing , but its not bad.

The sailing is not a bit harmed by the oversized prop diameter as the large 2 blade is locked behind the deadwood.

My point on setting a boat up to optomise the way the boat is used , rather than some spec the engine as if morons were at the controls will work for an owner that prefers long life and lower noise levels.

At 3/4 a gallon fuel burn , "saving" fuel is not that a big deal.

Our Volvo MD 3B is rated 35 hp cont, the 2 cylinder 25 hp and the single at 15hp.

Volvo is very conservative as all the engines are the same , cept for cylinder count.

With 3/4 a gal burn I guess the engine is cranking out 13HP or so.

13hp at 2100rpm to get 6K is too far down the power curve to load the engine.

1600 is much nicer , smooth and quiet.We set 1600, it creaps to 1800 as the batts go up and the freezer loads drop.

It does work well for me , so* I sugest it to displacement folks that wish to enjoy the advantages.

Sadly on our New England cruising we chose destinations that are about 3 hours apart , and do most sailing in our Grumman Dink.


-- Edited by FF on Thursday 15th of September 2011 12:37:08 PM
 
nomadwilly wrote:
Hi Bob,

The EGT tells the exhaust gas temperature (if installed right) so we know how much heat is in the exhaust pipe. Can one make assumptions about what the temperature of critical engine parts are inside the engine? Say my exhaust valves are 1000 degrees when my EGT says X is the temp of my exhaust gas. Then I take the EGT off that engine and install it on another engine and run it at X EGT. Are my exhaust valves on the 2nd engine at 1000, 700 or 1200 degrees. A good temp for one engine may not be good for another. I don't know but perhaps you, Rick or David does.

*
*I think Fred has already answered this one but I'll be his echo.* I dunno what the exact*risky EGT is for your engine but the numbers are out there.* The way the commercial guys use EGT is to prevent destruction of the engine - a drop dead number as it were.* As someone has already pointed out EGT says nothing about the other critical operating temps - if somebody took my post to mean that then they need to reread my post.* The reason EGT is important in applications that can generate rapid torque demands is because EGTs can go off the scale long before the other operating temps will reflect the increased load on the engine.* As Fred has already alluded to, in an overprop situation the number would tend to be constant - once you determine what the relationship is between throttle setting and EGT you would not expect that to change over time so the gauge would provide initial information and*then be*"less useful"*over the long term.*

I think you could probably get a pretty good approximation of the EGT using an infrared thermometer.* Given that the relationship between throttle setting and EGT isn't likely to change that would probably be good enough.* Particularly so since I opened my original post by saying that I think this whole discussion is largely a tempest in a teacup.* These engines are seriously overbuilt for most of our purposes.* Their most likely failure mode - BY FAR - is operator neglect - lack of cooling water & seawater ingress being at the top of that list.* Moderate overpropping and the occasional high EGT is likely not a serious risk.* But that's my opinion and its value to you is pretty much what it cost you to obtain it.

*


-- Edited by bobofthenorth on Thursday 15th of September 2011 01:08:19 PM
 
bobofthenorth wrote:" ...the occasional high EGT is likely not a serious risk."**
That's kind of like saying the occasional*coronary*is no big deal.

The manufacturer may provide you with an exhaust temperature limit but that should never be a goal.

Extended operation at high exhaust temperatures will lead to exhaust valve failures. Period, no waffling, it will kill your exhaust valves. A poorly performing turbo charger will lead to high exhaust valve temperatures and failures even though the exhaust temperature shown on the pyrometer is within limits. That is a fact.

Using an IR thermometer to read exhaust temperature is like checking your freezer temperature from the other side of the galley. There is way too much thermal mass between the meter (which only converts IR radiation to an assumed temperature that depending on emmisivity may be way off) to tell much about the temperature of the gases departing the cylinder. Even a sensor at the turbine inlet which is 100 percent more information than 99 percent of small or medium sized marine engines will ever tell you doesn't tell you anything about the condition that is melting the #3 piston or turning the exhaust valves on #4 to expensive metal sculpture.

Unless you have*an*EGT probe installed within a couple of inches*of the exhaust outlet from*each cylinder you are only getting a snapshot of the overall loading condition and thinking that keeping that mostly below the maximum temperature the manufacturer allows at the exhaust outlet most of the time only gives you a slow motion view of your engine fading away before your eyes.

*

*
 
Whatever.* I stand by what I wrote.* In the grand scheme of things high EGTs are the least of our worries.* By your assessment*most EGT probe installations are inadequate anyway.*
 
*

*I don't know how I missed commenting on this statement:

"... once you determine what the relationship is between throttle setting and EGT you would not expect that to change over time so the gauge would provide initial information and*then be*"less useful"*over the long term."

*There is no direct relationship between throttle setting and EGT. The "throttle" on your boat does nothing other than set a target speed for the governor. The governor then adds fuel to bring the engine up to that speed or it reduces fuel to bring it down to that speed.

You can set a speed and the engine will happily run at that speed until something changes that slows the boat and creates added load that slows the engine. The governor will add fuel and the EGT will rise. If the load goes up far enough or lasts long enough the EGT can reach damaging levels before the fuel limit is reached by the governor ... all the* while the engine rpm might stay the same. You can set your "throttle" at just above idle and a line or something in the prop can overload the engine without ever showing up on the tach until it drops to zero.

The relationship between "throttle position" and EGT is a rapidly changing one. High EGTs may be the least of your worries but they are the most likely cause of engine failure for those who choose to ride the wild propeller curve in pursuit of saving a dime an hour on fuel. Trying to convince others that ocassionally heating the exhaust valves to a rosy glow is Ok is not very nice advice.



-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 15th of September 2011 03:07:49 PM



-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 15th of September 2011 03:16:31 PM


-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 15th of September 2011 03:17:39 PM
 
RickB wrote:
*

*I don't know how I missed commenting on this statement:

"... once you determine what the relationship is between throttle setting and EGT you would not expect that to change over time so the gauge would provide initial information and*then be*"less useful"*over the long term."

*There is no direct relationship between throttle setting and EGT. The "throttle" on your boat does nothing other than set a target speed for the governor. The governor then adds fuel to bring the engine up to that speed or it reduces fuel to bring it down to that speed.

You can set a speed and the engine will happily run at that speed until something changes that slows the boat and creates added load that slows the engine. The governor will add fuel and the EGT will rise. If the load goes up far enough or lasts long enough the EGT can reach damaging levels before the fuel limit is reached by the governor ... all the* while the engine rpm might stay the same. You can set your "throttle" at just above idle and a line or something in the prop can overload the engine without ever showing up on the tach until it drops to zero.

The relationship between "throttle position" and EGT is a rapidly changing one. High EGTs may be the least of your worries but they are the most likely cause of engine failure for those who choose to ride the wild propeller curve in pursuit of saving a dime an hour on fuel. Trying to convince others that ocassionally heating the exhaust valves to a rosy glow is Ok is not very nice advice.
*Your analysis is correct for non-marine applications but seriously flawed for a marine situation.* Changing the prop is the only thing that is going to materially change what will be a more or less direct relationship between throttle position and EGT on a boat.* The relationship will change slightly with changing displacement and wind loading but for the world most of us live in it won't change enough to matter unless the prop is changed which I thought was the subject under discussion.

If I foul a line with a prop EGTs are likely to be the least of my worries.
 
*Your analysis is correct for non-marine applications but seriously flawed for a marine situation.* Changing the prop is the only thing that is going to materially change what will be a more or less direct relationship between throttle position and EGT on a boat.* The relationship will change slightly with changing displacement and wind loading but for the world most of us live in it won't change enough to matter unless the prop is changed which I thought was the subject under discussion.

*

*I beg to differ on this. A fouled bottom or change in boat loading (ie "vacation load") will change EGT significantly. It*will also change WOT RPM*and that can be overloading.

I have experience in this as I had a pyrometer on my ex boat when I repowered.


-- Edited by jleonard on Thursday 15th of September 2011 04:57:00 PM
 
bobofthenorth wrote: Your analysis is correct for non-marine applications but seriously flawed for a marine situation.* etc
Wow, there isn't much point in continuing this conversation.

Having spent a few thousand hours watching cylinder pressures, exhaust gas temperatures, torque and fuel flow change with load at constant rpm in real time on an engine control computer while crossing the Pacific more than a few times I guess I didn't realise that the engine was not connected to a prop.
no.gif


*
 
RickB wrote:Wow, there isn't much point in continuing this conversation.
Having spent a few thousand hours watching cylinder pressures, exhaust gas temperatures, torque and fuel flow change with load at constant rpm in real time on an engine control computer while crossing the Pacific more than a few times I guess I didn't realise that the engine was not connected to a prop.
no.gif
And these real time load changes were on just exactly which recreational trawler power train?

I have to say though - I can readily agree with your opening sentence.* I started out thinking this whole discussion was a tempest in a teacup - now I'm convinced.
 
So**** .....it seems overpropping is done to save fuel** ...that's what I'm hearing.* FF mentioned a reduction of noise but everybody else is focused on fuel burn. David M has been a very objective source of engine knowledge for a long time and he says fuel savings is about 10%. Marin was overpropped some time ago and then got propped right and I think he said his fuel burn remained about the same. Anybody recall? I'd rather do best by my engine and burn a bit more fuel if that's the case.
 
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