Chip & Sign Credit Cards

Wxx3 · Sep 1, 2017

I'm feeling feisty today, so reading the other thread about CC fraud, I'd think I will throw something out there for you guys to think about.

For the last few years I have had running discussions (battles) with my various credit card issuers over the then coming new Chip & Sign cards.

Now, as many of you know, I travel a lot and spend a lot of time in Europe, even before the Dauntless Days.

Chip & Pin cards were introduced in Europe about 10 years ago. By 2014, they were everywhere in Europe, but jsut being issued in the USA.

I spend a year or two, 2013-2014, where it became every harder to use my non-chip cards. Places like the Netherlands had automated so much, that you had to pay for parking and at some point train tickets using your Chip & Pin card, which I didn't.

What a big PIA :banghead:

So that's when I started calling my respective banks and credit unions to ask to get a Chip & Pin.

Was told that Americans were getting Chip & Sign cards because "Americans were too stupid to remember another Pin"

But I said that would not solve my problem.
Oh, they told me, of course it would, as all merchants would have to have the new card readers. :hide:

Now, don't get confused, your Chip & Sign card does have a Pin to use at ATMs, but only at ATMs.

I'd been hoping that initially I thought we could request a Chip & Pin card. I told them (the issuers) that in Europe, since everyone else has a Chip & Pin, the Sign was not going to work. instead, but again after many discussions, I was told, I did not understand. :facepalm:

So, where are we now. :popcorn:

With my Chip & Sign cards in Europe, we have gone from little security to NONE at all.

I used my C&S cards hundreds of times in the last two years. I stick the card in the machine, it prints out two receipts, I sign one and they keep one.

No one ever checks for signature or to see if it's even me. If I lose the card and don't realize it. Someone could use the card no problem forever.

So we went from little security to no security.

Oh, by at the numerous places, parking lots, train stations, etc with no attendants, no problem whatsoever now :smitten:

Just stick your American C&S card in and Voila, it works, you don't need no stink'n PIN or Signature, NO Nuthin.:lol: :facepalm:

What a f...ing farce.

john61ct · Sep 1, 2017

Prepaid VISA or AMEX card, transfer funds in online, only as needed.

Cottontop · Sep 1, 2017

Wxx3 said:
I'm feeling feisty today, so reading the other thread about CC fraud, I'd think I will throw something out there for you guys to think about.

For the last few years I have had running discussions (battles) with my various credit card issuers over the then coming new Chip & Sign cards.

Now, as many of you know, I travel a lot and spend a lot of time in Europe, even before the Dauntless Days.

Chip & Pin cards were introduced in Europe about 10 years ago. By 2014, they were everywhere in Europe, but jsut being issued in the USA.

I spend a year or two, 2013-2014, where it became every harder to use my non-chip cards. Places like the Netherlands had automated so much, that you had to pay for parking and at some point train tickets using your Chip & Pin card, which I didn't.
What a big PIA

So that's when I started calling my respective banks and credit unions to ask to get a Chip & Pin.

Was told that Americans were getting Chip & Sign cards because "Americans were too stupid to remember another Pin"

But I said that would not solve my problem.
Oh, they told me, of course it would, as all merchants would have to have the new card readers.

Now, don't get confused, your Chip & Sign card does have a Pin to use at ATMs, but only at ATMs.

I'd been hoping that initially I thought we could request a Chip & Pin card. I told them (the issuers) that in Europe, since everyone else has a Chip & Pin, the Sign was not going to work. instead, but again after many discussions, I was told, I did not understand.

So, where are we now.

With my Chip & Sign cards in Europe, we have gone from little security to NONE at all.

I used my C&S cards hundreds of times in the last two years. I stick the card in the machine, it prints out two receipts, I sign one and they keep one.

No one ever checks for signature or to see if it's even me. If I lose the card and don't realize it. Someone could use the card no problem forever.

So we went from little security to no security.

Oh, by at the numerous places, parking lots, train stations, etc with no attendants, no problem whatsoever now

Just stick your American C&S card in and Voila, it works, you don't need no stink'n PIN or Signature, NO Nuthin.:lol:

What a f...ing farce.

My chip and sign cards would not work where there were no attendants in Europe. The machine would demand a pin. I had to get a true chip and pin card to use in Europe.

Cottontop · Sep 1, 2017

Cottontop said:
My chip and sign cards would not work where there were no attendants in Europe. The machine would demand a pin. I had to get a true chip and pin card to use in Europe.

And by the way, it doesn't work everywhere in France. Some machines will only take a French bank issued chip and pin card. Got stuck in a parking lot one time.

Robin · Sep 1, 2017

USA chip and sign is a joke. you could sign 'Donald duck. probably ''mickey mouse or even Donald trump'' and it would still be accepted. what a joke. 3rd world banking is far better' . With an English chip and pin I never had difficulty using it anywhere in Europe.

Bay Pelican · Sep 2, 2017

Without a pin my American credit card has been useless in numerous situations in Europe. I have asked several of my credit card issuers for a pin and they have refused.

If I ever start spending more time in Europe (less boating) I will have to figure out how to get a non-US card.

BandB · Sep 2, 2017

Many US cards have the pin as an option. They just don't promote it and the typical banker doesn't know. We have several. Here's a partial list, although I can't guarantee it's accuracy.

12 Best Chip-and-PIN Credit Cards in the U.S.A. (No Foreign Transaction Fees) - CardRates.com

Wxx3 · Sep 2, 2017

BandB said:
Many US cards have the pin as an option. They just don't promote it and the typical banker doesn't know. We have several. Here's a partial list, although I can't guarantee it's accuracy.

12 Best Chip-and-PIN Credit Cards in the U.S.A. (No Foreign Transaction Fees) - CardRates.com

Thanks.

I had looked into this two years ago, but sort of gave up. In part because even though this linked article says these banks issue such a card, when I called it seems not exactly totally Chip & Pin, but instead some kind of hybrid.
Now, I have also discovered that nowadays whatever customer service you need to talk to, they seldom know more than you, often less.

That said, I do have Barclay Card, I will call them. I had also heard that Well's Fargo had such a card.

FYI, two years ago, on my cruise of Northern Europe, from Ireland to Estonia and Finland, I had 5 different credit cards. On any given day, at any particular ATM, not more than 2 ever worked at the same time.
And from Atm to Atm, even with the same bank, the two cards differed.

So, if travelling, don't expect one card to suffice. Ever.

AusCan · Sep 2, 2017

The rest of the world has been using chip cards for 10 years, although most people now just use pay-wave for small purchases. Do people just not like change over there?

oh yeah, you're still considering the metric system.... :hide:

john61ct · Sep 2, 2017

For the vast majority of USians, what the rest of the world does or thinks just isn't relevant, may as well be talking about a lost tribe in some jungle, don't even care to find out.

BandB · Sep 2, 2017

Wxx3 said:
Thanks.

I had looked into this two years ago, but sort of gave up. In part because even though this linked article says these banks issue such a card, when I called it seems not exactly totally Chip & Pin, but instead some kind of hybrid.
Now, I have also discovered that nowadays whatever customer service you need to talk to, they seldom know more than you, often less.

That said, I do have Barclay Card, I will call them. I had also heard that Well's Fargo had such a card.

FYI, two years ago, on my cruise of Northern Europe, from Ireland to Estonia and Finland, I had 5 different credit cards. On any given day, at any particular ATM, not more than 2 ever worked at the same time.
And from Atm to Atm, even with the same bank, the two cards differed.

So, if travelling, don't expect one card to suffice. Ever.

A couple of issues one faces. France, for instance, often is set up to not accept US cards. Second, on US cards that do have pins, they go signature as priority and pin as secondary.

I know Bank of America's pin card works and Barclay's. I don't know or care about Wells Fargo as I'm not about to deal with them. Andrews Federal Credit Union is mention on many sites. USAA also has chip and pin. Actually chip and signature and pin, as all I've mentioned.

BruceK · Sep 2, 2017

AusCan said:
The rest of the world has been using chip cards for 10 years, although most people now just use pay-wave for small purchases. Do people just not like change over there?

oh yeah, you're still considering the metric system....

PIN works well. Except occasionally in Europe, France actually. We ended up giving a nice man 50 Euros cash and pumped in 50E of fuel on his card at an unmanned fuel station.
Pay Wave works up to a limit,presumably on the chip,over that you put the card in a terminal and enter the PIN.

rwidman · Sep 2, 2017

john61ct said:
For the vast majority of USians, what the rest of the world does or thinks just isn't relevant, may as well be talking about a lost tribe in some jungle, don't even care to find out.

That would be me. My ancestors left Europe for a reason. I don't want to go back and have no reason to worry about what they do. Unless of course, they are plotting an attack on the USA.

Cottontop · Sep 2, 2017

Wxx3 said:
Thanks.

I had looked into this two years ago, but sort of gave up. In part because even though this linked article says these banks issue such a card, when I called it seems not exactly totally Chip & Pin, but instead some kind of hybrid.
Now, I have also discovered that nowadays whatever customer service you need to talk to, they seldom know more than you, often less.

That said, I do have Barclay Card, I will call them. I had also heard that Well's Fargo had such a card.

FYI, two years ago, on my cruise of Northern Europe, from Ireland to Estonia and Finland, I had 5 different credit cards. On any given day, at any particular ATM, not more than 2 ever worked at the same time.
And from Atm to Atm, even with the same bank, the two cards differed.

So, if travelling, don't expect one card to suffice. Ever.

My chip and pin card is from the Andrews Federal Credit Union. No foreign transaction fees. It works most everywhere, except occasionally in France, where you need a French bank issued card to be certain.

dhays · Sep 2, 2017

Richard,

I agree that the US is way behind on CC security as well as many other areas. Not sure why we as a country are so slow to adopt new things. I think it may simply be that we don't like change and we have a very competitive banking market.

If one bank decides that they want to improve security and change to chip and pin cards, many of the their customers may decide they don't like it and change banks. Banks know that the average customer will opt for convenience over security and don't want to lose share in the lucrative CC market.

In other countries, the ones that Wesk doesn't care about, they might introduce regulation into the industry to improve security. The problem here of course is that we in the US reflexively react to any increase in regulation. As a business owner that takes CC, I would complain about the cost of new CC reader, the increased cost of a higher speed internet connection, the hassle of training employees on a new system, having to explain it to our patients etc....

So, even though changing to a chip and pin system would better serve clients and merchants in the long run, and allow new business opportunities to develop, we won't do it because this is another (rare) example where the free market fails us on the macro level.

Cottontop · Sep 2, 2017

dhays said:
Richard,

I agree that the US is way behind on CC security as well as many other areas. Not sure why we as a country are so slow to adopt new things. I think it may simply be that we don't like change and we have a very competitive banking market.

If one bank decides that they want to improve security and change to chip and pin cards, many of the their customers may decide they don't like it and change banks. Banks know that the average customer will opt for convenience over security and don't want to lose share in the lucrative CC market.

In other countries, the ones that Wesk doesn't care about, they might introduce regulation into the industry to improve security. The problem here of course is that we in the US reflexively react to any increase in regulation. As a business owner that takes CC, I would complain about the cost of new CC reader, the increased cost of a higher speed internet connection, the hassle of training employees on a new system, having to explain it to our patients etc....

So, even though changing to a chip and pin system would better serve clients and merchants in the long run, and allow new business opportunities to develop, we won't do it because this is another (rare) example where the free market fails us on the macro level.

Not too many years ago, credit cards were uncommon in Europe. When Europe finally adopted credit card usage, it leap-frogged signatures and went to chip and pin. The US has an installed base of credit card stripe scanners that is worth billions. It will take a while to convert.

dhays · Sep 2, 2017

Cottontop said:
Not too many years ago, credit cards were uncommon in Europe. When Europe finally adopted credit card usage, it leap-frogged signatures and went to chip and pin. The US has an installed base of credit card stripe scanners that is worth billions. It will take a while to convert.

That is a good point that I hadn't considered. I have only been to Europe once and that was over 40 years ago.

The same thing has happened with phone service in third world countries. They have little infrastructure for twisted pair phone service but have exploded with cell towers. They, in large part, skipped over the twisted pair century.

john61ct · Sep 2, 2017

WesK said:
That would be me. My ancestors left Europe for a reason. I don't want to go back and have no reason to worry about what they do.

Thing is, the average citizen in the more developed nations is much better off, has a more comfortable safe and secure life than us, because they have been making much more sensible decisions on the design of their political-economic systems, for some reason they seem to elect/appoint more rational and public-spirited officials.

In other words we have a lot to learn from them if we did pay more attention.

I suppose Asia and Africa are even more irrelevant to you? Well think again, since the lower 70% of the US population slides ever more quickly into real world-class poverty, they also have a lot to teach us about basic survival skills in third-world conditions.

Mike.p · Sep 2, 2017

BandB said:
A couple of issues one faces. France, for instance, often is set up to not accept US cards.

This is hard to believe. What French territories do you mean the French Antilles or France metropolitan? I often work in remote places, quite often in Paris Toulouse and Nice since 2001, I was briefly in Nice yesterday now in Paris I personally never had a problem with my Wells Fargo Chase Bank of America cards wether in parkings restaurants shops ATM, anywhere, neither my wife and my son, our cards have a PIN code.

Mike.p · Sep 2, 2017

WesK said:
That would be me. My ancestors left Europe for a reason. I don't want to go back and have no reason to worry about what they do. Unless of course, they are plotting an attack on the USA.

This is actually an unbelievable statement, the kind of what would make me to cancel my recent membership right away. 'Welcome mat, we're a friendly bunch....' mmmm... really?

Poor Eleanor Roosevelt. Indeed our former First Lady collaborated to write the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man of the United Nations which was an essential achievement to promote the development of friendly relations between nations.
Sad to see that your statement was pretty far from Eleanor Roosevelt's legacy.

john61ct · Sep 2, 2017

The Roosevelts are the original Antichrist to huge swaths of right-wingers in the US.

And any mention of international coordination and efforts toward real peace in the world are perceived as threats to "liberty".

The UN is an evil conspiracy dontcha know? of jack-booted thugs and black helicopters taking away our guns putting people in internment camps.

Sounds like comedy but that stuff is real to so many here.

Mike.p · Sep 2, 2017

john61ct said:
The Roosevelts are the original Antichrist to huge swaths of right-wingers in the US.

And any mention of international coordination and efforts toward real peace in the world are perceived as threats to "liberty".

The UN is an evil conspiracy dontcha know? of jack-booted thugs and black helicopters taking away our guns putting people in internment camps.

Sounds like comedy but that stuff is real to so many here.

Thanks for giving me one more reason to cancel my membership right away with no regret.

BandB · Sep 2, 2017

Cottontop said:
My chip and pin card is from the Andrews Federal Credit Union. No foreign transaction fees. It works most everywhere, except occasionally in France, where you need a French bank issued card to be certain.

Andrews is most mentioned on all forums discussing it.

BandB · Sep 2, 2017

Mike.p said:
This is hard to believe. What French territories do you mean the French Antilles or France metropolitan? I often work in remote places, quite often in Paris Toulouse and Nice since 2001, I was briefly in Nice yesterday now in Paris I personally never had a problem with my Wells Fargo Chase Bank of America cards wether in parkings restaurants shops ATM, anywhere, neither my wife and my son, our cards have a PIN code.

I mean much of the automatic equipment in France which requires a Pin code is not working for people with US cards. Where signature works it's not a problem. Where pin is required even those with pin cards from the US have had a lot of issues. Places like public transportation have been mentioned. There are a lot of discussions of chip and pin online. My last time in France was before chip and pin existed. I do read of more issues in France than anywhere else. French Antilles I never heard of any issues. Perhaps your experience also reflects a diminishing problem. We used Chase, Bank of America and Barclay's in Spain and have used them throughout the Caribbean with no problems.

Chip & Sign Credit Cards

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