twistedtree
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There is another thread going about the performance of hybrid boats, and what's realistic to expect. This poll is to see how many people would find the electric performance of a hybrid acceptable.
Acceptable performance of a hybrid boat?
- Thread starter twistedtree
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
OP
OP
twistedtree
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Gosh, looks like nobody cares enough to even answer the poll.
The entire idea of a hybrid for a trawler baffles me. Now if you could show me something that used a diesel/electric drive to some effeciency advantage I'd at least pay attention but I am guessing the complexity would be a big strike against that idea too.
The entire electric/hybrid idea appears to be more of a "feel good" thing than anything real at this stage...
Bruce
The entire electric/hybrid idea appears to be more of a "feel good" thing than anything real at this stage...
Bruce
MurrayM
Guru
Well...if you put the hybrid drive in one of our fat bellied trawlers it might not make sense, but how about a power trimaran?
Also, it's a slippery slope looking for logic in any kind of boat ownership
Also, it's a slippery slope looking for logic in any kind of boat ownership
Lou_tribal
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And where would be the pleasure without the smell of diesel in the early morning
jleonard
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And where would be the pleasure without the smell of diesel in the early morning
What he said!!
jleonard
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0 for 14 right now, seems like you could close this poll.
How about using an electric motor as a get-home power source? At the Seattle Boat Show this year there was an electric motor that attached to the prop shaft that ran off the genset, incase the main engine failed. This form of Hybrid seamed like a good idea to me.
FF
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" This form of Hybrid seamed like a good idea to me."
For similar bucks you could get a Hydraulic get home shaft power ,
a Hyd windlass , a Hyd thruster ,a Hyd boat hoist and a Hyd stern winch .
The white smoke NEVER comes out of Hyd goodies.
For similar bucks you could get a Hydraulic get home shaft power ,
a Hyd windlass , a Hyd thruster ,a Hyd boat hoist and a Hyd stern winch .
The white smoke NEVER comes out of Hyd goodies.
A mention of the one hybrid that has been on the market a few years, Greenline. Electric range of 20 miles at 4 knots. With solar claim to be able to run all day at 2 to 3 knots. Also claim a lot of boats sold. I've yet to ever see one on the water, but thinking sold in Europe. If it was the next great trend in boating, wouldn't someone else be jumping on the bandwagon with them? And wouldn't their new offerings, larger boats, also be hybrid?
Then let's go electric, for canal cruising. I know of several people in our area who have bought Duffy electrics. They've been around 40 years as they were largely used for rentals at places like parks. Nice novelty for the canals, but then I hear of all the maintenance, issues with the electric systems and no one around to service them. A lot of sending the motors to the factory for rewinding and other things.
Successes get copied. Neither of these really has been. Not like you see a trend started. Why? The demand just isn't there. Also, they both introduced a product but can't tell that either has now made much improvement in their product, the growth isn't there.
I contrast with hybrid cars. They weren't big sellers at first, paying considerably more for the same car just to have hybrid. However, there was a drive and incentive to improve. Ultimately, they've come to the point of being able to stand on their own. A comparison of Accords. Accord Hybrid $29,605 for 47/49 mpg. Accord Sedan $22,455 for 32/23. The hybrid also has some items standard that are optional on the base sedan. It's a product many consider but one doesn't give up performance to get it. It's a nice pleasant option and it's also one that can function well for many people and their typical driving habits. Plus a small percentage of the car market was still enough to justify continuing to build upon it. Now, hybrids and plenty of electrics. Continuing improvement in alternatives. Now Honda has a Clarity Fuel Cell model running on hydrogen.
Another huge difference on cars and that is the government incentives that have existed to encourage alternatively fueled vehicles and the size of the potential market justifying the Tesla types. The auto market is just so huge and the recreational boat market so small. The auto sales are still a small percentage. Last year in the US 150,000 hybrid or electric out of over 17 million total. Miniscule, but miniscule on autos is huge still. Volvo just announced that starting in 2019, all it's cars will either be hybrid or electric. Are they crazy or smart? I think they may be on to something and that we're not that many years away from over half of all car sales being hybrid or electric. They are no longer novelties.
We have about 40 cars in our business fleet. Still small number. However, it's become a very realistic consideration to us of possibly purchasing Hybrid or Electric. I believe one day we will make the change. I don't think we're quite to that time yet. However, we might make the move by 2018. Tesla even has my attention with their Solar and Powercells for homes. Don't think they're there yet, but moving quickly.
Electric and hybrid boats remain novelties. Not a single major builder has decided to jump on the bandwagon. Do you see Sea Ray's hybrid? Of course not. Now people like Feadship and Oceanco and major yacht builders are working toward some alternatives. They can't run 4 knots though. I do believe it will happen one day in boating but it may well lag two or three decades or more behind cars.
Then let's go electric, for canal cruising. I know of several people in our area who have bought Duffy electrics. They've been around 40 years as they were largely used for rentals at places like parks. Nice novelty for the canals, but then I hear of all the maintenance, issues with the electric systems and no one around to service them. A lot of sending the motors to the factory for rewinding and other things.
Successes get copied. Neither of these really has been. Not like you see a trend started. Why? The demand just isn't there. Also, they both introduced a product but can't tell that either has now made much improvement in their product, the growth isn't there.
I contrast with hybrid cars. They weren't big sellers at first, paying considerably more for the same car just to have hybrid. However, there was a drive and incentive to improve. Ultimately, they've come to the point of being able to stand on their own. A comparison of Accords. Accord Hybrid $29,605 for 47/49 mpg. Accord Sedan $22,455 for 32/23. The hybrid also has some items standard that are optional on the base sedan. It's a product many consider but one doesn't give up performance to get it. It's a nice pleasant option and it's also one that can function well for many people and their typical driving habits. Plus a small percentage of the car market was still enough to justify continuing to build upon it. Now, hybrids and plenty of electrics. Continuing improvement in alternatives. Now Honda has a Clarity Fuel Cell model running on hydrogen.
Another huge difference on cars and that is the government incentives that have existed to encourage alternatively fueled vehicles and the size of the potential market justifying the Tesla types. The auto market is just so huge and the recreational boat market so small. The auto sales are still a small percentage. Last year in the US 150,000 hybrid or electric out of over 17 million total. Miniscule, but miniscule on autos is huge still. Volvo just announced that starting in 2019, all it's cars will either be hybrid or electric. Are they crazy or smart? I think they may be on to something and that we're not that many years away from over half of all car sales being hybrid or electric. They are no longer novelties.
We have about 40 cars in our business fleet. Still small number. However, it's become a very realistic consideration to us of possibly purchasing Hybrid or Electric. I believe one day we will make the change. I don't think we're quite to that time yet. However, we might make the move by 2018. Tesla even has my attention with their Solar and Powercells for homes. Don't think they're there yet, but moving quickly.
Electric and hybrid boats remain novelties. Not a single major builder has decided to jump on the bandwagon. Do you see Sea Ray's hybrid? Of course not. Now people like Feadship and Oceanco and major yacht builders are working toward some alternatives. They can't run 4 knots though. I do believe it will happen one day in boating but it may well lag two or three decades or more behind cars.
diver dave
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I was in the engine room of this tug a couple years ago. 2 diesels running 2 generators running 2 electric motors. Each about a 200HP device. Looks soooo heavy overall.
Yes, it was made in 1932, but until we get some room temperature superconductors, a 200HP electric motor is very heavy.
btw, a bit off point, but its single screw.
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O C Diver
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If I could have a 6 knot trawler with a 50 mile battery range, I would be interested. To me, a 30 to 40 mile cruise day followed by a 12 hour dock side recharge, has lots of appeal. Would imagine having a generator to provide some backup. Clearly the batteries don't exist to make this feasible.
Ted
Ted
I think at your numbers, it's closer to feasibility. Much like autos, they had to increase the range and speed.
Greenline, which is the major seller of hybrid boats, gets 4 knots and a range of 20 miles on the electric. I would think you couldn't go against any strong current. 6 knots and 40 miles sounds much better.
kev_rm
Senior Member
Making math easy lets say 50hp to go 5kt so ten hours run time to get you 50 nm away. Here's my math.
assume 60% efficiency.
50hp = 37KW.
* 10 hours run time
370,000 W/h @ 100% efficiency - ouch.
Common Lead acid golf cart batteries @ 10 hr rate:
1242 W/h per battery.
Putting back in 60% efficiency - A whopping 500 batteries. (about $80K and 15 tons in batteries alone..).. and lithium is not cheaper in terms of lifetime W/h - just smaller and weighs less
PS: Diesel has an energy density of 33MJ/L. Lead acid battery = 0.56. Lithium Ion ~2. So making something 4X as efficient as the internal combustion engine does not solve this fundamental problem.
assume 60% efficiency.
50hp = 37KW.
* 10 hours run time
370,000 W/h @ 100% efficiency - ouch.
Common Lead acid golf cart batteries @ 10 hr rate:
1242 W/h per battery.
Putting back in 60% efficiency - A whopping 500 batteries. (about $80K and 15 tons in batteries alone..).. and lithium is not cheaper in terms of lifetime W/h - just smaller and weighs less
PS: Diesel has an energy density of 33MJ/L. Lead acid battery = 0.56. Lithium Ion ~2. So making something 4X as efficient as the internal combustion engine does not solve this fundamental problem.
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O C Diver
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If we're going to look at numbers, lets get a little more realistic. My 45' trawler can cruise at 6 knots at 1.1 to 1.2 GPH. If I had optimized the drive train (smaller engine etc.) for that speed, the number mighy be closer to 1.0 GPH or roughly 20 HP.
Secondly, I wouldn't be using golf cart batteries. Industrial forklift batteties are much more energy for the same weight and space. I wouldn't be surprised if a large forklift battery would do the job. In an industrial plant, these trucks are designed to run 8 hours continously, battery recharged in 8 hours and then the battery cools for 8 hours. These lifts are using more than 20 HP.
Ted
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diver dave
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By no means an exhaustive survey.
I found a 48V 340A-h el forklift battery at 1180 lbs.
That''s 13.8W-h/lb. at 8 hour dis. rate.
My first golf cart came up as 6V 215 A-h and 60 lbs.
That's 1.29 kW-h and 21.5W-h/lb. but at a 20 hour disch rate, so really lower to compare with a 8 hour rate.
So far the golf cart wins. I think the fork battery was in a steel case, though.
They sure use the word "yacht" very loosely.
diver dave
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per my last post, Elco's "20HP" outboard needs that forklift battery to run 2 hours. Actually, less than 2 hours, since the kW-h is speced at 8 hour rate. 1180 lb of battery will be quite impressive in my 10' Avon!
This is such a whacked argument.
This is such a whacked argument.
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Ok so here is a proper yacht with hybrids.
https://www.isarayachts.com/
Hybrid Marine have been doing boat hybrids for a long time, mostly UK canal boats, but have recently added cat hybrids to their info. I think it is still for relatively small cats though.
Isara are using twin hybrid/diesel configurations, but that could also be driven by a conservative customer bias. And the electric kW is quite small, matched to the battery capacity, and basically just for short-term use, entering/leaving docks etc. I would want just one diesel, and prob at least 30kW drive in the other hull, to be tempted. Then it becomes more of a diesel-electric boat than a hybrid due to inadequate battery capacity.
https://www.isarayachts.com/
Hybrid Marine have been doing boat hybrids for a long time, mostly UK canal boats, but have recently added cat hybrids to their info. I think it is still for relatively small cats though.
Isara are using twin hybrid/diesel configurations, but that could also be driven by a conservative customer bias. And the electric kW is quite small, matched to the battery capacity, and basically just for short-term use, entering/leaving docks etc. I would want just one diesel, and prob at least 30kW drive in the other hull, to be tempted. Then it becomes more of a diesel-electric boat than a hybrid due to inadequate battery capacity.
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markpierce
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All electric-drive may be feasible for light-duty land transportation in future decades (although don't see it for heavy road transport), don't see its practicality for boats/ships and airplanes.
Cottontop
Senior Member
I guess the fact that nobody wants a boat like that explains why nobody builds a boat like that. (With that single exception; wasn't me)
Here's another poll to run: does any body want a boat that sinks after 100 hours? Builders definitely want to know, if there's a market, prices can be reduced.
Here's another poll to run: does any body want a boat that sinks after 100 hours? Builders definitely want to know, if there's a market, prices can be reduced.
Cottontop
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Cottontop
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Cottontop
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