Cancelled New Construction Trawler

I was hoping to post some photos of steel plates being cut in a couple of weeks, but after a lot of effort, time and money spent on design both by me and my shipyard, I have now cancelled the construction of my new trawler. Very disappointing but it was the right decision.

It was only partially based on pricing issues that arose, and mostly based on souring attitudes and my growing lack of trust. As I have learned to listen to my gut feeling, this was certainly the right decision.

If I may offer advice to others who may be approaching a new-build, it's your money and likely a big chunk of your life savings, and as my big brother always told me, you can't negotiate from a position of strength if you're not willing to walk away.

Anyway, time to move on and find a plan B.

Wow,
A significant move. It certainly seemed like you'd put a lot of research into it.

Sorry to hear it didn't work out.

What was an indicator of your lack of trust , if you don't mind discussing it a little more. The reason I ask that would seem like a huge project with lots of ups and downs

hi-ho-hi-ho it's off to China I go



Wow after months of hard work, negotiations and delays I will be flying out shortly to NE China to visit some shipyards for my new build steel vessel.

One is a contender for my present design. Another is of secondary interest to me, but worth visiting since I'll be in the area. A third offers fiberglass from their molds, totally different than my design, but with vacuum infusion techniques and a proven track record, I'm willing to discuss their proposal further.

I was supposed to leave next week, but with visa delays, Chinese New Year coming mid-Feb and this horrible chest cold (yes it gets cold in Qatar), I'm finalizing the date shortly.

I recall some of our Forum members have built in Seahorse and perhaps other yards, and I'd appreciate some feedback as to who you hired for inspections. In the city where I will be building I'm having a hard time finding independent surveyors of small boats/yachts. The big companies can provide services but they are extremely expensive since they are based on ship surveys and inspections.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

makobuilders said:

Wow after months of hard work, negotiations and delays I will be flying out shortly to NE China to visit some shipyards for my new build steel vessel.

I was supposed to leave next week, but with visa delays, Chinese New Year coming mid-Feb and this horrible chest cold (yes it gets cold in Qatar), I'm finalizing the date shortly.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

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Commiserations. Nothing worse than catarrh in Qater, eh..?
Sorry.

Seahorse interests you? And building issues are a turnoff?
Might this be attractive: https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/seahorse-52/211700

My gut says no steel

gaston said:

My gut says no steel

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Why does your gut say that?

Why a new build with so many steel vessels on the market for well below new build costs?

There are western inspectors/surveyors working in Taiwan, you might do a Google search using that criteria, however, be cautious. In my work in China and Taiwan (working with both steel and FRP) I've found, through firsthand experience, that some surveyors working in the region are reluctant to constructively criticize the yard's techniques or practices other than superficially. At the very least ask for at least three references.

Having said that, and of course this depends entirely on the yard, the boat building quality in Asia is like virtually every other boat building region, it runs the gamut from horrendous to stupendous. Personally, I enjoy working with good Asian boat builders, they are conscientious, hard-working and diligent, particularity when the design, systems, materials and expectations are clearly defined. The key is to thoroughly vet the yard first, then inspections simply become a case of refinement and inspecting what you expect, rather than teaching the yard how to build a boat.

As always, choose carefully. I wrote this column after a project I undertook in Taiwan Taiwan LookBook | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting
and this article regarding boat building in China and Taiwan in general https://www.pressreader.com/usa/passage-maker/20140901/281767037404252
And, there are several China entries in my travelogues here Travelogues | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

Every boat building project should be fulfilling and satisfying, with a minimal amount of stress; while those carried out in Asia can, and should, be an enjoyable adventure.

sunchaser said:

Why a new build with so many steel vessels on the market for well below new build costs?

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The reasons are completely irrational, emotional, make no economic sense and frustrate my wife to no end. It's absolutely the wrong decision and I'm a big idiot.

... I've heard all those insults so many times that I just roll with them now and have stopped trying to defend or justify myself.

Steve, thanks for the input, and yes this trip is all about vetting the 2 or 3 shipyards in person.

Steve DAntonio said:

There are western inspectors/surveyors working in Taiwan, you might do a Google search using that criteria, however, be cautious. In my work in China and Taiwan (working with both steel and FRP) I've found, through firsthand experience, that some surveyors working in the region are reluctant to constructively criticize the yard's techniques or practices other than superficially. At the very least ask for at least three references.

.

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Having done a lot of business (non boating) in China and Taiwan and elsewhere in Asia, I'd agree regardless of the industry. If I was about to build in China, I'd have a non-local manager or surveyor onsite regularly to represent my interests. Otherwise you just have to trust the yard. A local surveyor or manager is just not in a position to stand up to the yard. It would not be in their best professional interest to do so.

makobuilders said:

The reasons are completely irrational, emotional, make no economic sense and frustrate my wife to no end. It's absolutely the wrong decision and I'm a big idiot.

... I've heard all those insults so many times that I just roll with them now and have stopped trying to defend or justify myself.

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Buying a new boat makes no financial sense, yet very smart people do it all the time.

Building a custom boat makes no financial sense, yet it is done occasionally by motivated dreamers.

Cost is a consideration for most of us of course, but there are a lot of other very real considerations that are important to each individual.

I used to be a runner. I raced a dozen marathons. Racing a marathon makes no sense from a fitness standpoint. The training required, and the resultant stress on the body, likely creates an overall decrease in total life fitness than say training to race 10k’s. Yet folks like me did it for years. Not because it was rational, but because it was an emotional decision.

Don’t feel bad about pursuing your boating dream and keep sharing your progress with us.

dhays said:

Buying a new boat makes no financial sense, yet very smart people do it all the time.

Building a custom boat makes no financial sense, yet it is done occasionally by motivated dreamers.

Cost is a consideration for most of us of course, but there are a lot of other very real considerations that are important to each individual.

I used to be a runner. I raced a dozen marathons. Racing a marathon makes no sense from a fitness standpoint. The training required, and the resultant stress on the body, likely creates an overall decrease in total life fitness than say training to race 10k’s. Yet folks like me did it for years. Not because it was rational, but because it was an emotional decision.

Don’t feel bad about pursuing your boating dream and keep sharing your progress with us.

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Sometimes it’s about the journey one gets to take that creates the value in ones head. I once stepped out of Corporate America, opened up an art gallery that made little money, but gave me a PhD in life. I have relied on that life experience more than the previous 35 years.

Mako, I can’t add anything helpful in regards to your question, but I do admire your perseverance. We only get one shot, and if steel is what you want and you can make it happen, then I say great. Do you already have plans drawn up? Keep us posted with the process.

makobuilders said:

The reasons are completely irrational, emotional, make no economic sense and frustrate my wife to no end. It's absolutely the wrong decision and I'm a big idiot.

... I've heard all those insults so many times that I just roll with them now and have stopped trying to defend or justify myself.

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For what it is worth... Delfin was largely a new build since when we bought her she was an empty shell. Something you might consider - once the yard has appropriately coated all interior steel, spray on sound deadening compound, then apply 1/4" acoustical cork over all surfaces. This assumes you aren't spraying foam, which I avoided since when it burns it gives off cyanide gas. I followed the cork with 2" coast guard batts except in the E/R, which was insulated with acoustical foam sheets.

The net result is a steel hull that is extremely quiet, with no condensation. By not using spray foam, I have been able to do some spot welding on the outside of the hull without worrying about setting spray foam alight inside. I made some good decisions in completing our boat, and some not so good, but this was a very good one.

http://www.silentcoating.com
http://www.jelinek.com/product-information-cork-underlayment/

I have a nice US built Steel Canal Barge I'd sell in Stuart, FL. 45' long by 12' wide. For photos cadillacboats@me.com / (772) 285-2266 Cadillac

Mako

We share your love of new boats in spite of all the financial arguments against. Now, the first critical step is the selection of the builder. Many focus on their quality of work and previous builds, but I think it must go further and include the financial stability of the company and how they have historically conducted their business. You're not just appraising boat building skill but the people you'll be working with.

We also decided upfront that we did not want to get involved building a fully custom boat. Specifically, we chose not to build a new hull that the builder hadn't previously built. That turned it into a semi-custom vs. custom, with existing structure but flexibility inside and on deck. You might look at options that reduce your exposure.

You probably made one of the best moves of your life in walking away from the circumstance you were in. I know that was difficult, but it could have gone much worse had you continued. Good luck with your next choice.

Mako

One other comment. You've been focused on Asia. Have you considered Turkey? Many well thought of yards there, perhaps more experienced with custom builds.

makobuilders said:

The reasons are completely irrational, emotional, make no economic sense and frustrate my wife to no end. It's absolutely the wrong decision and I'm a big idiot.

... I've heard all those insults so many times that I just roll with them now and have stopped trying to defend or justify myself.

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That`s a little harsh. It`s hardly an insult, but I guess you are sensitized.
When posting about the Seahorse,I thought they only built in steel, realizing later this one was f/g. I like it, but its way more boat than I need.
Though I would not exclude a f/g version of a Seahorse, especially if I had builder trust issues and a proposed overseas build. But,your boat your decision,I`m not intentionally intruding on that.

Good morning. Woke to about 40-50 meters visibility today (a bit better on the highway of course with the warm concrete) - tower cranes shut down on site.

Anyway, I appreciate the conversation and let me address some of your comments:

• Since "local surveyors" like the kind we are used to in the recreational boating market are not available to me, I would either need to hire a ship surveyor or a class inspector. Going for full CCS classificaiton adds about $40k to my cost so I need to balance that against the benefits. I don't have local contacts so it would be a shot in the dark to find a local boat builder who I could truly trust to conduct inspections and give feedback that is actually productive.
• Soundly vetting the yard is my primary focus. I'm building a commercial boat re-purposed for personal use (not a yacht) so am only dealing with medium-large fully found shipyards. It would be a bonus if I could feel comfortable enough to actually trust the yard to deliver a quality product without my having a full time inspector.
• Regarding my comments about "insults" I think that came across more bitter than it should have. Perhaps I need to learn from my teenie-bopper daughter how to use emojis more often
• Yes I have a set of plans for the steel boat. As mentioned however, I am open to considering the fiberglass vessel because of what I perceive (so far) as to their quality works having produced 100+ fishing boats using good vacuum infusion techniques.
• I have visited two yards in Turkey. One yard had excellent quality but their mold was not for a vessel that met my needs. The other was Asboat which was highly regarded. Their finish work was exceptional but I was turned off by the unacceptable quality of the steelwork underneath all the gloss, plus some other "systems" related issues. A third commercial shipyard in Turkey just had too high of a price. So did another in Ukraine. I guess its the euro-thing??
• I did mention Seahorse by name earlier, but it's not my interest actually. Plus I have heard negative feedback recently from one potential customer about the direction their operations have been going.

Good luck with your build/journey. IIRC you have had several sizeable boats previously, and are taking this project as a 'last boat' with all the things you want and none of the issues that comes with production and used boats.

For a custom build the detail is critical. I think you either need NA produced spec, or build somewhere close enough for you to visit very regularly. For the latter, Poland used to have a good rep for cost effective steel builds. Not sure if that has changed.

Another option might be one of the groups that build replica Dutch Barges, either in the Netherlands or possibly the UK. They have the rquipment and expertise to do good steel builds.

eg Euroship.
Euroship Services, computer en snijservice voor de scheeps- en jachtbouw
Even if these folks only get it to 'sail-away' stage for fit-out elsewhere.

sunchaser said:

Why a new build with so many steel vessels on the market for well below new build costs?

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Steel boats are often semi-custom built, so the builder is open to tweet the boat to one's individual wants.

makobuilders said:

Good morning. Woke to about 40-50 meters visibility today (a bit better on the highway of course with the warm concrete) - tower cranes shut down on site.

Anyway, I appreciate the conversation and let me address some of your comments:

• Since "local surveyors" like the kind we are used to in the recreational boating market are not available to me, I would either need to hire a ship surveyor or a class inspector. Going for full CCS classificaiton adds about $40k to my cost so I need to balance that against the benefits. I don't have local contacts so it would be a shot in the dark to find a local boat builder who I could truly trust to conduct inspections and give feedback that is actually productive.
• Soundly vetting the yard is my primary focus. I'm building a commercial boat re-purposed for personal use (not a yacht) so am only dealing with medium-large fully found shipyards. It would be a bonus if I could feel comfortable enough to actually trust the yard to deliver a quality product without my having a full time inspector.
• Regarding my comments about "insults" I think that came across more bitter than it should have. Perhaps I need to learn from my teenie-bopper daughter how to use emojis more often
• Yes I have a set of plans for the steel boat. As mentioned however, I am open to considering the fiberglass vessel because of what I perceive (so far) as to their quality works having produced 100+ fishing boats using good vacuum infusion techniques.
• I have visited two yards in Turkey. One yard had excellent quality but their mold was not for a vessel that met my needs. The other was Asboat which was highly regarded. Their finish work was exceptional but I was turned off by the unacceptable quality of the steelwork underneath all the gloss, plus some other "systems" related issues. A third commercial shipyard in Turkey just had too high of a price. So did another in Ukraine. I guess its the euro-thing??
• I did mention Seahorse by name earlier, but it's not my interest actually. Plus I have heard negative feedback recently from one potential customer about the direction their operations have been going.

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Don't overlook Cheoy Lee as a possibility. They are a commercial yard as well as recreational.

makobuilders said:

The reasons are completely irrational, emotional, make no economic sense and frustrate my wife to no end. It's absolutely the wrong decision and I'm a big idiot.

... I've heard all those insults so many times that I just roll with them now and have stopped trying to defend or justify myself.

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There should be no shame in choosing to undertake a new build. While I'm biased, I’m retained by my clients to evaluate and improve designs, systems, and yards, and help folks build new boats, and while financially there are better "investments", there are two very good reasons to take on a new build. One, you can specify exactly what you want down to the smallest detail, and two, you can be part of the build process and therefore learn the vessel and her systems intimately, especially if you make visits to the yard.

New builds aren't for every buyer. For those who are particular about electrical system design, voltage drop and wire size, pump brands and capacity, hose selection, interior design features, paint selection, seacock selection, hydraulic system design, ground tackle redundancy and the hundreds of other decisions, large and small, that are made in a new build project, a new build makes good sense and can be immensely satisfying.

Done right, it is no small undertaking, and it has in some cases been a source of untold grief for both buyers and yards. In my career I've encountered more than a few boat owners who bought a yard to ensure project completion; not exactly good for one's blood pressure. Again, this should be enjoyable, and due diligence is an all too necessary part of the process.

Other than anecdotally, and short of hiring an unbiased, bi-lingual Chinese accountant, and assuming the yard would open their books to him or her, I'm not sure how you'd accurately assess the financial soundness of a Chinese yard. If you have a method, please share it. This is an important consideration for any yard you select in China or elsewhere; and it’s probably among those that are the most difficult to resolve

The single biggest factor is, once again, yard selection. Work with a savvy yard that is properly tasked and has a good reputation for quality, willingness to work with clients and advisers/inspectors, and is willing to adhere to ABYC, or CE Standards, and it can be a very good experience.

Part of any yard evaluation process should include carefully inspecting one or two recent builds, and soliciting feedback from those owners.

Steve DAntonio said:

Other than anecdotally, and short of hiring an unbiased, bi-lingual Chinese accountant, and assuming the yard would open their books to him or her, I'm not sure how you'd accurately assess the financial soundness of a Chinese yard. If you have a method, please share it. This is an important consideration for any yard you select in China or elsewhere; and it’s probably among those that are the most difficult to resolve

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It is a bit of an investigative process, but here are a few things I'd include:

1. Length of time in business
2. Owners and their reputation
3. Reputation with vendors
4. Work flow-any boats waiting for items, shortages of inventory. Evaluate carefully time from start to finish of recent boats. Walk around their yard and ask questions, such as "Why is no one working on this boat today?" Don't let the yard control your tour of their facility, you do so.
5. Referrals chosen by you based on recent completions. Don't let them hand pick.
6. Reputation in local community

Actually, the same way I knew Northern Marine was unsound and Christiansen was in trouble. Same way you would have known Trinity had issues a few years ago.

Sometimes it's the "word on the street" and the street is pretty knowledgeable. Although you must be careful with it, competitors talk too.

There are a lot of tell-tale signs of poorly managed manufacturing but also of manufacturers with financial issues.

One other huge warning sign and that is the yard that quotes a significantly lower price or even lower at all versus those yards you know are well established.

Example: Yard A you know is well established and dependable. They quote $2 million.

Yard B you don't know much about and they quote $1.6 million. Simply cannot be. They're either not going to be able to do it for that and going to keep finding reasons to charge more or they're going to lose money and if they're losing money, that's never good, or they'll cut major corners. They can't survive like that.

BandB said:

One other huge warning sign and that is the yard that quotes a significantly lower price or even lower at all versus those yards you know are well established.

Example: Yard A you know is well established and dependable. They quote $2 million.

Yard B you don't know much about and they quote $1.6 million. Simply cannot be. They're either not going to be able to do it for that and going to keep finding reasons to charge more or they're going to lose money and if they're losing money, that's never good, or they'll cut major corners. They can't survive like that.

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Or maybe Yard B is trying to break a new segment of the business and are willing to take a loss or break even to start trying to establish a reputation. Companies that are unwilling to make price concessions to break into an established market are not likely to succeed (unless they have some significant market discriminator in hand).

I've seen reputable companies try to break into an established market with products that are not much different from existing products and who are unwilling to discount their product and may even charge more than others (to recover their NRE). Eventually, they can't give their stuff away.

ssobol said:

Or maybe Yard B is trying to break a new segment of the business and are willing to take a loss or break even to start trying to establish a reputation. Companies that are unwilling to make price concessions to break into an established market are not likely to succeed (unless they have some significant market discriminator in hand).

I've seen reputable companies try to break into an established market with products that are not much different from existing products and who are unwilling to discount their product and may even charge more than others (to recover their NRE). Eventually, they can't give their stuff away.

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That's all true for certain consumer products although a horrible strategy for most. However, not for a boat yard. If a yard is building a boat at a loss, you the buyer are in trouble. Guaranteed. Every time I've ever seen this course pursued, the lack of funds along the way has become critical.