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Marin

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A somewhat uncommon occurance for this time of year was the dense fog over northern Puget Sound this weekend.* This is quite common in September and October but not so much in the usually-hot July-August months.* Much of it was gone by mid-day but when we crossed Rosario Strait in the early afternoon on our way back to Bellingham on Sunday a heavy band of it still lay right up the middle of the strait.* "Heavy" in the sense that visiility was barely a boat length.

It was very pretty though.* The third shot is of the ex-Forestry boat "Governor John Roberts" which is based in Bellingham.* It sat somewhat neglected for many years but whoever owns it now seems to have put a lot of work into the boat, and even better, seems to use it regularly during the summer.
 

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Picture taken today of the Golden Gate Bridge shows a typical foggy, overcast day in the San Francisco Bay in summer.

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*

Looking in the opposite direction, toward Point Blunt, Angel Island:

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*


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 8th of August 2011 05:47:24 PM
 
Yes, I remember when I was a little kid in our rented fisherman's cottage in Sausalito one block back from Bridge Street that ran along the waterfront (I think that was the name of the street, anyway) watching the fog slide over the hills behind the town and pour down the little valleys. It's one of those visuals that stays with you forever and is one of the few things I remember with fondness about California. That and the golden hills in summer dotted with the dark patches of oak trees.
 
SE AK in the misty fog. Bradfield Canal.
 

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Willy--- We're used to running in the fog a lot in early and mid-fall and again in December-January. Sometimes it seems more the norm than no fog. But we don't recall encountering it much in early August. Perhaps things are different up your way with the influence of the Fraser path to the interior and the closer mountains. Or maybe it's climate change, I don't know. It's been a cooler than normal summer so far so I'm sure that's at least partly responsible.
 
One of these days I expect to run into "real" fog and give*the air horns a good exercise as well as avoiding blobs on the radar screen.
 
So Willy, have you taken any interesting trips recently? I recall you posted some photos some time ago of a trip (or maybe more than one) you took to Harrison Lake, was it? Or am I misremembering? I just looked at it on Google Earth. Can one take a boat the size of the ones most of us have from the Fraser up to the lake?
 
Hey Marin,
I was thinking about that trip as well. SEA magazine had an article about it a few months back. Unfortuantely, like Willy, running my own business in this climate requires less people and more hours to survive. Short close trips are all we're able to do this year.
 
markpierce wrote:
One of these days I expect to run into "real" fog and give*the air horns a good exercise as well as avoiding blobs on the radar screen.
Click to expand...
(on the sailboat)*I remember a trip on the SF Bay from the south bay to angel island.* From the bay bridge to the tip of Angel Island we had extremely limited visibility and I was at the mast blowing the air horn at regular intervals.* We had AIS and that helped us avoid a few ferries.* It was extremely freaky.* There was also an ocean race where we could hear a freighter behind us and see it on the AIS but we could not see it through the fog.* that was a really long day.*

I hate fog when I am in it on my boat*but it sure looks pretty slipping over the hills in a white*blanket... it is a very cool sight. *
 
Pineapple Girl wrote:I hate fog when I am in it on my boat*but it sure looks pretty slipping over the hills in a white*blanket... it is a very cool sight. *
Click to expand...
*GPS/electronic maps sure make it easier to avoid "the rocks."* That greatly reduces the scare.* Meanwhile, trusting in God and praying for radar (as in Battle*of Britain).* Do you suppose that freighter heard your horn?* I kind of doubt it.* Neither in those 40-MPH bay ferries.* Do you think they open their pilothouse windows to be able to hear anything?


-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 19th of August 2011 12:55:38 AM
 
Any of you folks try Fogmate? http://www.fogmate.com/HTML/index.htm I installed a Fogmate 1 1/2 years ago, but have seen very little fog operations due to my limited winter ops this past year or so. It was easy to install and seems to work very well when I test it. It only cost about 0.1 boat units ($100) so it was easy to rationalize the purchase. (relatively inexpensive AND safety related)

When the fog hits, there's no substitute for radar. I wish I had AIS!! I am often amazed at the little boats out there in dense fog without radar, reflectors or fog horns.
 
FlyWright wrote:
Any of you folks try Fogmate? http://www.fogmate.com/HTML/index.htm I installed a Fogmate 1 1/2 years ago, but have seen very little fog operations due to my limited winter ops this past year or so. It was easy to install and seems to work very well when I test it. It only cost about 0.1 boat units ($100) so it was easy to rationalize the purchase. (relatively inexpensive AND safety related)
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*No, but I have a Kahlenberg control unit, located between the searchlight and autopilot controls.* It cost about 0.75 boat bucks.*
doh.gif


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*
 
Please, someone wake me up with a loud-sounding horn.

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markpierce, click here.

*


-- Edited by FlyWright on Sunday 28th of August 2011 07:41:46 PM
 
FlyWright wrote:
markpierce, click here.
Click to expand...
*Thanks, Al, I needed that.

And another typical summer's overcast day in San Francisco Bay demonstrated*this previous Sunday:

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Here's the cause of the smooth water in the above photo's foreground:

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*
 
My sailboat had radar, so the fog never bothered me.** I was going to install radar this year, but the new enigne killed the toy budget (killed it good), and the yard wanted 7 bu's to build an arch.* Ouch.

Labor Day weekend was great, but today there was fog.* I left Fisherman'Bay, Lopez around 11am, hoping that things would be burned off in Rosario before leaving Thatcher pass.* Turns out that I was about an hour too early.**

Obviously, with GPS, there's no question about where you are, and where you're headed, but it was a busy day on the water.* I was mostly worried about the commercial traffic, so I was monitoring Seattle Traffic on 05a, and checked in with them before crossing Rosario.* I had the Elwah ferry headed staight at me, and the Victoria Clipper was out there somewhere doing 29 knots!.* I heard the Elwah announce that they were leaving Anacortes even before checking in and slowed down enough to let her come out of the fog bank before I headed in.* What surprised me was that, as I was leaving the fog bank, there was a second ferry headed west!!* I never heard that one announce they were leaving, and there wasn't any chatter about it on 05a.** I never saw, or heard the Victoria Clipper.

I've got to get radar, or at least AIS.*** I could hear the Elwah sounding her horn, but only two of the recreational boaters (me, and one other) were sounding horns.
 
Ouch, Bob.** Just what was the visibility like?*

Fog is one reason I have a 130 dB horn with a nominal range of one mile (which*startles the begeezes of some in the marina, sorry) and*I suppose is*four times as loud as the typical 120 dB boat horn with half that range.

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(Compare my horns to my neighbor's.)


-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 5th of September 2011 10:57:20 PM
 
... I could hear the Elwah sounding her horn, but only two of the recreational boaters (me, and one other) were sounding horns.
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*I don't expect sailboats to monitor the radio or sound horns.* Not that they shouldn't.* But that's my experience.
 
markpierce wrote:
Ouch, Bob.** Just what was the visibility like?*

Fog is one reason I have a 130 dB horn with a nominal range of one mile (which*startles the begeezes of some in the marina, sorry) and*I suppose is*four times as loud as the typical 120 dB boat horn with half that range.

*

(Compare my horns to my neighbor's.)



-- Edited by markpierce on Monday 5th of September 2011 10:57:20 PM
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The fog was pretty thick for a short distance.**

I don't put a lot of faith in horns.* The ferries are pretty maneuverable, use their radar, and probably won't run into me, but the oil tankers and cargo ships don't/can't turn and probably aren't listening to horns. They might sound theirs, but that may not help me figure out which way to run.

Most of the rec boaters are using their inside helm, because it's cold, and probably can't hear over their engines, especially if they're running fast and overtaking me.
 
bobc wrote:

I've got to get radar, or at least AIS.*** I could hear the Elwah sounding her horn, but only two of the recreational boaters (me, and one other) were sounding horns.
Click to expand...
*Of the two, get radar.* I have yet to see any reason why AIS would be worth installing on our boat.* If we're in fog and in or approaching to cross a shipping lane we use the relevant VTS system-- Puget Sound, Victoria, or Vancouver--- to check in, tell them our intentions, and recieve radioed notices of nearby vessels.

Regarding fog horns, we have loud ones and we sound them per regulations when boating in the fog but we put no faith in them or anyone else's horn whatsoever.* We run from the lower helm only and with two engines under the floor there is no way we're going to hear another boat's horn, even a ferry unless it's right on top of us.* We have a loud hailer/intercom and in fog we turn on the forward station to make horns potentially hear-able at the helm but that doesn't give us any directional info.* If the fog is real thick and we're in a narrow passage used by a lot of boats and ferries one of us might go out on the foredeck to listen for horns.

But for the most part we rely on the radar.* We have a good one and in fog one of us cons the boat while the other one closely monitors the radar.* It's mounted so we can both easily see the screen but we feel more comfortable in the fog with one of us sort of dedicated to radar duty.
 
I have yet to see any reason why AIS would be worth installing on our boat.
_________________________________________________________________

I would choose radar over AIS if I could only have one but I have found AIS very handy to have at times. As an example you can see a ship on AIS long before it will be picked up by radar. How you ask? Because if the ship is around the corner AIS will see it but you or your radar won't and you can get prepared to move out of it way. Agate Pass is a good example of where this is handy. You can see the BC ferries converging on you long before they are visible and move to one shore or the other without the panic you may have when there it appears, 100 hundred meters in front of you.

Another handy feature is that AIS will give you a converging distance (I can't remember the exact 3 letters) when you are in a crossing situation. You're watching the Washington State ferry coming at a right angle to you. If you hold course, will you pass in front of the ferry at a safe distance? AIS will tell you.

AIS was and maybe still is relatively inexpensive. I think I paid about $200 for the unit I bought from Milltech on Bainbridge Isl. It easily interfaced to my Furuno VX2 display.

Ron
 
windmist wrote:
You're watching the Washington State ferry coming at a right angle to you. If you hold course, will you pass in front of the ferry at a safe distance? AIS will tell you.
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So will the ferry's position relative to the window frame in front of or*beside*me :)

Or if it's foggy the EBL will tell me.

So far in some 24 years of boating up here (not all of it in the GB of course) we have yet to be "surprised" by a ship.* Our frequent runs to and from our property in the San Juans put us in narrow channels used by the ferries as well as other commercial vessels*and while we're often in fairly close proximity to them---*50 yards sometimes--- we've never had an issue with where are they, where are they going, should we cross them, and other such questions.* Same with the ships on their way to and from Vancouver, BC, Anacortes or Cherry Point.

We have not yet (never say never) had an occasion to say, "Gee, I wish we'd have known that guy was coming."* We've had ships appear around a corner but they're always in the lanes they're supposed to be in and they're moving slow enough-- even the ferries at 20 knots or whatever they run at--- that there is plenty of time to react unless one is being really dumb in an area frequented by commercial shipping and ferries.

So AIS for what we do in our waters seems a waste of money.* It doesn't give us any information that we need that we don't already get in other ways, and the information it gives us that we can't get in other ways--- the name of the ship and other data about what it is and what it's doing--- is information we have never had occasion to want.* We see it--- visually or on radar--- and we stay out of its way.* It's seemed pretty simple to us so far.

While we ARE looking for something to fill the hole in the panel currently occupied by our now-defunct Furuno Loran-C,* after consideration we*think we would find something like a second VHF*to be far*more useful to us than AIS at this point.
 
Fog on the Bay, Sept. 6:

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*

*
 
My preference is radar.* The only reason I would go with AIS in the short term is that it's cheap.* The new John Deere engine wasn't.

I have been surprised by big ships before.* One time, many years ago, I was in patchy fog in Rosario and I could hear something big, but I couldn't see it, and I couldn't localize the sound (I could hear both the horn and engine)* I was lucky to break into an open patch in time to see an oil tanker and adjust my course.

This weekend I did check with VTS, but never received info about the second ferry that was headed at me, or about the one that came out of the fog on my tail.* I was monitoring 05a the entire time.* Seattle Traffic only told me about the Elwah and the Victoria clipper.* I'm guessing that with AIS I would have known about the other two boats.*
 
I use an iPad with "Ship Finder" when I'm in an area or a situation where knowledge of their location is helpful. If any vessel has AIS and it's on, I will know their location. Of course, radar is primary.
 
I spent 1 1/2 days in dense fog on Lake Huron in May this year. Visibility was zero for hours at a time increasing on occasion to up to a mile.*This lake is filled with shipping lanes for upbound and downbound ocean freighters.* I ran with radar and chartplotter and decided the best strategy was to run about 1/4 mi outside and parallel to a shipping lane. A freighter is very easy to see miles away on radar, so its the smaller boats that required attention. The radar was able to detect bouys well in the distance.*
 

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Marin wrote:.......after consideration we*think we would find something like a second VHF*to be far*more useful to us than AIS at this point.
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* * * * I'd re-think that if I were you. A high quality handheld will suffice for a second VHF and an AIS that shows ships positions on your plotter is extraordinary. Being an instrument pilot* I'd think you would really want an AIS to improve you SA.
 
Sorry, Walt, but I just don't see the value. Well, that's not correct, I see the value but I don't see that it gives us anything of importance that we don't already have. I don't need to see a ship's position on the plotter, I can see it on radar and correlate it to the plotter. The ships up here travel in very well defined corridors. It's not like the open ocean where they can head out in whatever direction makes the most sense to them. So I'm not going to encounter a bulk carrier in Thatcher Pass, Wasp Passage, or Mosquito Pass. The Washington State and BC ferries follow very specific routes. I'm not going to encounter one of then in Hale Passage. The smaller commercial vessels--- tugs and barges, landing craft, etc.--- are all over the place but they're slow and easy to see (visually or on radar) and avoid.

The boats that DO present a potential danger up here are the little sport fishing boats that zoom around at full throttle no matter what the visibility. And none of them are equipped with AIS so radar and luck are the only two things anyone has going for them in this case.

Other than some "nice to know" stuff I don't see that AIS gives me any "need to know" information that I don't already know.

Sure, if one is a gear junky and likes to have the latest gee-whiz screen gizmo AIS is undoubtedly way cool. One more thing to play with (and get all distracted by). I'm not that interested in gear for gear's sake. And there are probably boating regions where AIS would come in very handy. The ICW, perhaps, where everyone is crammed in with everyone else and knowing nearby vessel data could be a big help. But I just don't see how it would help us up here. A second VHF--- I don't mean a handheld with its little piss-ant antenna and low power but a real 25 watt VHF with a 24 foot antenna like our other radio at the helm--- seems a much more valuable addition. We have dual watch and tri watch but they're always switching over right when you don't want them to. So having one radio for general use and one uninteruptable on VTS or another commercial frequency would be something we could get some use out of, I think.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 7th of September 2011 12:23:56 PM
 
Marin wrote:
" I don't need to see a ship's position on the plotter, I can see it on radar and correlate it to the plotter."

_______________________________________________________________

That's quite a trick...to see a ship (Ferry) coming out from behind an Island!

I was on a ferry from Seattle to Bremerton a few months ago and as we passed through the narrow chanel just south of Bainbridge Island, we came dangerously close to a motoring sail boat that didn't know we were there. (I know, you never cruise that far south.)

*
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