Help w/ battery challenge

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MichaelB1969

Guru
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
679
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Make
Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Have a bit of a challenge finding replacements for my 12 volt house batteries. The boat came standard with two Exide ER660 batteries, placed side-by-side. The current Exide batteries are rated at (C20) 140 Ah and CCA (EN) 750 A. You can see the spec on them at:

http://detabatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/exide-marine-spec.pdf

The issue is that the batteries are European sized and just fit (within a battery tray/box) into the 16.5" wide space between the engines (they are 7-3/8" wide). The American 4D batteries are too wide to fit side-by-side since they are typically each at least 8.5" wide. And shipping the Exide batteries from Europe doesn't seem to be a realistic option.

The existing space I have to fit the new house batteries is approx. 16" wide x 25" long x 8" high.

I've heard a proposed solution of placing 2 AGM batteries on their side, but I haven't seen any 4D batteries that are low-profile enough to work in the space when placed on their side.

Any other ideas? Are there other battery types I should consider? I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.

Lastly, there is a small chance that I might actually have 17" width, in which case, there is a small chance that two standard 4D batteries might fit. However, I don't think I'd be able to fit a single human hair between them. I won't know until I remove the battery box to get a more exact measure.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Best,
Mike
 
MichaelB1969 said:
Are there other battery types I should consider?
Click to expand...

uhh. flooded. If you look at total cost per lifetime watt hour of a well maintained bank.. I'm not sure you can do better. If that opens up more options for your form factor, which I bet it does, all the better..
 
kev_rm said:
uhh. flooded. If you look at total cost per lifetime watt hour of a well maintained bank.. I'm not sure you can do better. If that opens up more options for your form factor, which I bet it does, all the better..
Click to expand...

I think all the 4D batteries, whether they are flooded or AGM, are similarly sized.
 
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.

What are these for, starting? Or is this your entire house bank? If for starting, 2 31s from Costco. If house, try fitting in some 2 volt batteries?
 
Xsbank said:
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.

What are these for, starting? Or is this your entire house bank? If for starting, 2 31s from Costco. If house, try fitting in some 2 volt batteries?
Click to expand...



Entire house bank.
 
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
I would get the specs of a range of the various group batteries and try for 4 x 12v batteries. You may get a better fit with a change of thought process. You woud certsainly get them in it's just the CCA values etc and storage values etc.
 
Martin J said:
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
I would get the specs of a range of the various group batteries and try for 4 x 12v batteries. You may get a better fit with a change of thought process. You woud certsainly get them in it's just the CCA values etc and storage values etc.
Click to expand...


In the attached photo, at the very edges of the photo you can see the wood blocks that support the floorboard covering the batteries. I could add some wood shims to raise the floorboard to gain a few inches. Of course, it would make an already tight space in terms of headroom (or lack thereof) even tighter. But it's an option! Thanks.

IMG_8932.JPG
 
Take a look

MichaelB1969 said:
Have a bit of a challenge finding replacements for my 12 volt house batteries. The boat came standard with two Exide ER660 batteries, placed side-by-side. The current Exide batteries are rated at (C20) 140 Ah and CCA (EN) 750 A. You can see the spec on them at:

http://detabatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/exide-marine-spec.pdf

The issue is that the batteries are European sized and just fit (within a battery tray/box) into the 16.5" wide space between the engines (they are 7-3/8" wide). The American 4D batteries are too wide to fit side-by-side since they are typically each at least 8.5" wide. And shipping the Exide batteries from Europe doesn't seem to be a realistic option.

The existing space I have to fit the new house batteries is approx. 16" wide x 25" long x 8" high.

I've heard a proposed solution of placing 2 AGM batteries on their side, but I haven't seen any 4D batteries that are low-profile enough to work in the space when placed on their side.

Any other ideas? Are there other battery types I should consider? I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.

Lastly, there is a small chance that I might actually have 17" width, in which case, there is a small chance that two standard 4D batteries might fit. However, I don't think I'd be able to fit a single human hair between them. I won't know until I remove the battery box to get a more exact measure.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...



The Best Marine Batteries Available | Energy1 AGM Batteries


I have used these batteries in my last boat worth great results:.
 
MichaelB1969 said:
I think all the 4D batteries, whether they are flooded or AGM, are similarly sized.
Click to expand...

Xsbank said:
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.
Click to expand...


I dunno about that. A few weeks ago I was looking at Trojan G27 specs (for a different discussion), and even within the same brand, they all weren't the same exact sizes.

Might be worth checking specs for many brands of 4Ds.

Also, I thought Exide sells batteries here in the US? Would they not have some ER660s (D04 profile, perhaps meant to be similar to BCI Group 4D) available somewhere here? And/or maybe Beneteau has a US source, or stockpile?

-Chris
 
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MichaelB1969 said:
I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.
Click to expand...

Martin J said:
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
Click to expand...

MichaelB1969 said:
In the attached photo, at the very edges of the photo you can see the wood blocks that support the floorboard covering the batteries. I could add some wood shims to raise the floorboard to gain a few inches. Of course, it would make an already tight space in terms of headroom (or lack thereof) even tighter. But it's an option! Thanks.
Click to expand...


The Exide specs say the EWR660s give 140-Ah at the 20-hour rate, so 2x would be about 280-Ah. If 4x 6V golf cart batteries would fit in there, that'd be about 220-Ah/pair wired in series/parallel, about 440-Ah total.

I've read that Lifeline GPL-4CT AGMs are slightly shorter than Trojan T-105s.

-Chris
 
Someone should make a website where you enter the available space and it spits back the various size options.

​http://www.batteryweb.com/bci.cfm

I don't think Exide is in the same true deep cycling league as Trojan, never mind Lifeline. AGM not needing watering maybe worth the tighter fit, but you really want to be sure your charging / usage patterns will maximize their longevity to make that investment.

4D, any other "automotive" group sizes like 27/31, in fact 12V itself, makes it more important to go with a really trusted vendor, with Rolls / Surette at the top, if getting true deep cycling is important to you. That gets expensive.

Exploring combos of 2V, 4V & especially 6V gives you that assurance regardless of brand-name if money is important.

Sam's Club Duracell/Deka East Penn comes in GC-2 6V as well as EGC2 and GC12, and the Costco Interstates are only slightly less excellent, check out the local Interstate dealer for GC options only

For sure also look at Trojan T-105 also J150 or T1275, L16s especially RE's
 
Check out the Victron line of batteries. They are available here in the US and have metric measures. I use their "Telecom" line of batteries as I have a space issue.

I their AGM SUPERCYCLE line might fit your needs.
 
mbevins said:
Check out the Victron line of batteries. They are available here in the US and have metric measures. I use their "Telecom" line of batteries as I have a space issue.

I their AGM SUPERCYCLE line might fit your needs.
Click to expand...



Those look pretty good. Definitely narrower. I'd just have to modify the height of the floorboard. Thx.
 
My 2 centavos worth

Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.

PM David Hayes, he recently came up with a good solution for his redone battery needs. He's a smart guy, he just got with it!
 
Last edited:
sunchaser said:
My 2 centavos worth

Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.

PM David Hayes, he recently came up with a good solution for his redone battery needs. He's a smart guy, he just got with it!
Click to expand...

Ha ha, I wish I knew. I've only had the boat for 6 months, it's the first boat I've owned, and the batteries have pretty much been kaput since I've had it. At this point it would simply be nice for all the low batter warning beeps to stop. :banghead:

So I don't really know what I need. I assume that the load is fairly light. All the kitchen appliances except for the fridge are gas. So the fridge I assume is the primary energy consumer. We will eventually install a TV, but the LED TV's are pretty energy efficient. Beyond that, I can't think of many things that would run on the battery, other than the windlass and lighting.

The boat doesn't have an inverter. If I added that at some point, I suppose I'd have to take into consideration anything I'd plug into the outlets. But for now, those only work when connected to shore power or when the generator is on.

Mike
 
Greetings,
Mr. 1969. Keep in mind your BILGE PUMPS may run on the same batteries...Much more important that lights, fridge, windlass etc. IMO
 
MichaelB1969 said:
I've only had the boat for 6 months, it's the first boat I've owned, and the batteries have pretty much been kaput since I've had it. At this point it would simply be nice for all the low batter warning beeps to stop. :banghead:

So I don't really know what I need. I assume that the load is fairly light. All the kitchen appliances except for the fridge are gas. So the fridge I assume is the primary energy consumer. We will eventually install a TV, but the LED TV's are pretty energy efficient
Click to expand...
By definition any fridge running 24x7 is not a light load. Lights can also be significant, as with electronics. Bilge and windlass are huge if run at all frequently.

The size storage bank you need in AH, relative to that daily load budget, can vary a lot depending on your charge sources, how you are getting them back to full.

Which for bank health should be 100% full, not just close to full, and ideally every cycle, not just sometimes. Another key is not running them down below 50%.

Which brings up, how do you monitor your SoC?

And do you think you can modify your space to allow for a different battery layout?
 
refers dont run 24/7. they cycle depending on set temp and other conditions regardless of being hooked up 24/7.
 
sunchaser said:
My 2 centavos worth

Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.

PM David Hayes, he recently came up with a good solution for his redone battery needs. He's a smart guy, he just got with it!
Click to expand...

Don't believe that for a minute. I'm really an idiot that simply benefits from the advice on TF.

I agree though don't let your current battery boxes dictate your batteries. First look at how you use your boat. If you spend very little time anchored, your current battery bank size is likely not bad (provided you have a separate start battery?). OTOH, if you would like to be able to anchor out for a day or two and keep your drinks cold and your lights on, you may want to increase your available Ah. Take a look at your fridge and see what the current draw is to get an idea of what a day or two of use would look like. With decent deep cycle batteries you want to see if you can avoid getting them below 50% SOC.

I'm a big fan of golf cart batteries and if there is any way you could fit four of them in that space I think it would be a good upgrade. On my sailboat I swapped 2 x 4D batteries for 4 GC batteries. Vertical clearance was a real issue. When you look at dimensions, make sure you are seeing the dimensions to the top of the post. Your current batteries have a typical Auto type terminal and the adapters adds a bit of height. If you go with GC batteries that have a 5/16 threaded terminal, you don't need those adapters and that will shave almost 3/4" from your actual height.
 
bayview said:
refers dont run 24/7. they cycle depending on set temp and other conditions regardless of being hooked up 24/7.
Click to expand...
yes of course. Still a relatively high draw compared to other non-essential loads.

some people just run them sometimes, e.g. fishing, holding plate systems while genny running
 
MichaelB1969 said:
Those look pretty good. Definitely narrower. I'd just have to modify the height of the floorboard. Thx.
Click to expand...
Michael.. Make sure you check all the different options they have. I just grabbed one.
 
john61ct said:
By definition any fridge running 24x7 is not a light load. Lights can also be significant, as with electronics. Bilge and windlass are huge if run at all frequently.

The size storage bank you need in AH, relative to that daily load budget, can vary a lot depending on your charge sources, how you are getting them back to full.

Which for bank health should be 100% full, not just close to full, and ideally every cycle, not just sometimes. Another key is not running them down below 50%.

Which brings up, how do you monitor your SoC?

And do you think you can modify your space to allow for a different battery layout?
Click to expand...

I think I could modify the space to allow for more height and length fairly easily. Width I'd have to start chewing into fiberglass, which I'm not keen to do.

As for monitoring, I have a basic battery gauge that looks pretty much like the one in the photo.
 

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sunchaser said:
Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.
Click to expand...

MichaelB1969 said:
So I don't really know what I need.
Click to expand...


Good to pay more attention to what you need... but if major surgery on your battery area isn't palatable...

Another way to approach it is to stuff in as much amp-hours (capacity) as you can get into the available space.

That can be relatively simple. Find batteries of various sizes that will fit. For example, two ER660s, maybe two 4Ds, maybe four GC2s (golf cart batteries), maybe four G27s or G31s... whatever. Then compare total projected Ah (20 hour rate) of each of those banks that might fit. Two ER6602 = 280 Ah. Four GC2s = 440 Ah. And so forth. Pic the most Ah that fits your wallet.

Even if you over-supply (??) yourself, the most likely consequence (aside maybe from cost) is that you'll have to recharge at anchor less often. That's not a horrible thing.

There can be some other considerations. Perhaps choose AGMs vs. FLAs if off-gassing is a concern, or if service is difficult. Perhaps choose multiple smaller batteries (e.g, GC2s) vs. fewer larger batteries (e.g., 4Ds or 8Ds) if schlepping heavy weight around is becoming more difficult. Listen to your wallet, if you must. Et cetera.

-Chris
 
MichaelB1969 said:
As for monitoring, I have a basic battery gauge that looks pretty much like the one in the photo.
Click to expand...
That's just a voltmeter, only very roughly corresponds with SoC. SmartGauge, marketed by Balmar in the US is both easy to use and most accurate.

If you don't care that much about getting maximum lifespan out of your bank, then just get as many pairs of Sam's Club Duracell (Deka East Penn) golf car 6V as you can get to fit, best $/AH value out there.

Or the other options I mentioned, if more AH fits better, and you're willing to pay more, but then it's worth doing what it takes to treat them right.

This is also a critical issue:

>> your charge sources, how you are getting them back to full.
 
ranger42c said:
Another way to approach it is to stuff in as much amp-hours (capacity) as you can get into the available space.
-Chris
Click to expand...

Given that I just paid $3,500 for my bimini top, $2,500 for my Volvo service, $2,700 for my life raft and I am about to pay who knows what to repair a bent shaft (courtesy of the previous owner), I think this (most capacity in available space) is where my head is at. Not saying it is the best long-term approach, but it's all I have the appetite for at this point in time.
 
john61ct said:
This is also a critical issue:

>> your charge sources, how you are getting them back to full.
Click to expand...

I will check out the SmartGauge, thanks. As for the charge sources, I will be using either the generator if out at an anchorage or shore power when at the dock. No solar or anything else.
 
MichaelB1969 said:
I will check out the SmartGauge, thanks. As for the charge sources, I will be using either the generator if out at an anchorage or shore power when at the dock. No solar or anything else.
Click to expand...

As usual, we here at TF tend to throw a lot of ideas around that seem peripheral to your original question (where to get batteries to fit?).

There is nothing wrong with just finding some batteries that will fit into your easily used space (ie without much modification) and call it good. The other thing to at least think about is what you would want to eventually have as an electrical setup.

-I assume you have a separate start batteries that are fed by your alternators? You may want to consider having the alternators charge the house bank and have DC to DC chargers that charge the start batteries.
-Figure out how much you need in terms of Ah capacity for your use.
-Add some type of SOC meter (that way you won't go below 50% SOC on your batteries making them last longer). You can also set them to have the genset start automagically if a given SOC is reached.
-Add the recommended fuse for the battery wiring while you are at it.

Lots of stuff to consider but if you know what you want to do eventually, then you can move in that direction piece by piece, starting with the new house bank batteries.
 
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