Marinas are like airlines?

Airlines in recent years are charging for baggage and meals which once were covered by the basic fare. In recent months, my municipal marina is separately/additionally charging for electricity and dock boxes previously included in the slip fees, accompanied with subsequent rises in slip fees and elimination of any weekend service, despite a very high vacancy rate in an area of year-round boating.

Charging for the metered electric makes sense. We all don't use the same amount.

No electric meters here. But liveaboards pay for substantially higher berthage, well over 50 percent of the basic berth rate.

That is discouraging. An enterprise that imitates the business practices of airlines is an outfit that I would want nothing to do with. Some "smart" MBA must have been hired to "fix" the marina. (No disrespect intended toward TFers who happen to be MBAs, as they would be highly likely to know how to improve a marina).

With that many empty slips, the MBA should be dope-slapped. As an engineer, it is in my blood to bash MBA's whenever possible, but that is another topic!! One thing I found in my area is that many slips are vacant but being paid for by someone. Boats on trips, on the hill, owner between boats, whatever.

At my marina we paid for electricity directly to the local utility.

Considering how different each owner's boating style and needs are, I consider it much fairer all round to have metered electricity at the dock. Hopefully, not an excuse to simply add a "tax" on top. Why should the owner without AC, for example, pay for the guy running his non-stop? And while we are on this topic, it is about time to assess individual water usage as well. Some boats at our old marina ran fresh water non-stop. We just lived through a major drought. Water is valuable commodity that should be treated as such.

Reasonable arguments can be made for metering electricity and water. There is a wide variance in usage among boaters and a flat rate, or included in the base rate, encourages unlimited use.

The dock box charge seems like a petty annoyance. If you don't pay do they remove the box?

As to the extra charge for liveaboards I don't see the justification once water and electricity are metered. Of course they are adding the extra charge because the market will bear it.

I am also a great fan of unbundling the airline fees. For years I flew very frequently with only a carryon and my ticket paid for baggage handlers. Same with the airplane food(?) I didn't eat. My records clearly indicate that I am paying less to fly today (adjusted for inflation) then I did in the 70s.

In regard to airlines, I wonder when they will start charging by weight for the passenger. They charge a small fortune for being one pound over in luggage weight, but charge the same for a 100 pound person or a 300 pound person.

When getting charged for excess baggage, I once questioned this policy, before realizing the airline employee I was speaking to was considerably overwieght. I got a curt reply.

Bay Pelican said:

As to the extra charge for liveaboards I don't see the justification once water and electricity are metered. Of course they are adding the extra charge because the market will bear it.

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Think the justification is quite easy to make. How much time does the average non live aboard person spend using marina services? Most likely average less than one day a week there. People (and their guests) who live aboard and use the marina bath and shower facilities have a much higher cost factor aside from the boat. While I couldn't put a dollar value on the cost of 2 people taking nice long hot showers every day for a month, there is a significant cost to it.

Ted

Pretty cheap rates IMHO. Why is the marina so empty? I agree the $6/month is pretty chicken shi.t for the dock box but I'd still pay it.

I've always like municipal marinas. You usually get pretty good bank for your buck.

These are from the City of Vallejo rate sheet: $7.21-8.86/ft/month with free pump out. Non live-aboards pay $10/month for electricity while live-aboards electrify is included in the live-aboard fee of $216/month.

Our rates are $16/ft/month for a live-aboard and add 13% tax on that plus metered electricity. We get 2 free pump outs per month then $15/. Were in North Florida, 20 plus miles from the ocean.

http://www.cityofvallejo.net/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=8382820

AusCan said:

In regard to airlines, I wonder when they will start charging by weight for the passenger. They charge a small fortune for being one pound over in luggage weight, but charge the same for a 100 pound person or a 300 pound person.

When getting charged for excess baggage, I once questioned this policy, before realizing the airline employee I was speaking to was considerably overwieght. I got a curt reply.

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(Thread creep warning).

As to the airlines, I would be unsurprised to discover that, somewhere in the nether reaches of that industry's strategic planning community, a lot of clever people are at work figuring out how to persuade the traveling public that it's perfectly safe to buy a ticket on pilotless, remotely-operated airliners.

The benefits will be endless. Without an aircrew on board, the weight savings alone add up. Then two or three additional revenue seats open up, and they can charge extra for those two seats way up in front, with forward-facing and side windows.

O C Diver said:

Think the justification is quite easy to make. How much time does the average non live aboard person spend using marina services? Most likely average less than one day a week there. People (and their guests) who live aboard and use the marina bath and shower facilities have a much higher cost factor aside from the boat. While I couldn't put a dollar value on the cost of 2 people taking nice long hot showers every day for a month, there is a significant cost to it.



Ted

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This makes a lot of sense to me Ted. Having said that, I like having a few live aboard at my marina. Since we have no paid security, it is nice to have neighbors around all the time.

dhays said:

Charging for the metered electric makes sense. We all don't use the same amount.

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Like this idea when it comes to flying as well. Pay be the pound, we all don't weigh the same either.

We're willing to pay for what we use. Electric is metered and additional. Water and WiFi are free for us, but we are at a basic boat yard. These costs are small compared to other boating costs...

My thoughts are like others in that everyone should be paying for the services they use.

Electricity is easy to meter, and we have found that anytime you meter electricity, it makes people think about how much they use, and they use less.

Since pump outs tend to be "free" (but do have a cost) and liveaboards do use more marina services I would also agree with liveaboard fees.

As far as slip prices going up or down, the marina is probably trying to stay cash flow positive. It takes a certain (often minimal) staff to run a marina and there is strong pressure to keep the monthly outlay of cash below the monthly intake of cash. If less slips are filled, you can only reduce to a certain point then you need to raise rates to meet monthly cash flow.

You could make a marketing argument that reducing rates would fill the marina and in the end cover costs, but...

kwmeyer13 said:

Like this idea when it comes to flying as well. Pay be the pound, we all don't way the same either.

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In theory, that makes sense. However, it is not practical. Mark mentioned that his marina doesn't charge per kwh for electricity. The reason they don't is that they don't have individual meters for each pedestal. There would be a very large capital cost to installing all those meters and they have made the decision not to do it.

Consider the airlines, how are they going to "meter" the weight of passengers? Back in the day wen airline tickets were purchased at the ticket counter, it would have been easy to have a scale in front of the counter. Now, tickets are purchased ahead of time. How is the airline to know what the weight of the passenger is? My guess is that to do practical and marketing reasons, the airlines have considered it but never found a way to make it work.

I'll have to ask my son who works as a financial analyst for AA in the flight operations area.

Some liveaboards are a blessing to a marina...and the marina often rewards them for it...other liveaboards are a drain.

Kinda like all sectors of society...unfortunately not all people in positions of marina leadership are capable of dealing with the variations of liveaboards....or corporate ties their hands.

That can be applied to all patrons, but liveaboards often magnify the variations.

dhays said:

In theory, that makes sense. However, it is not practical. Mark mentioned that his marina doesn't charge per kwh for electricity. The reason they don't is that they don't have individual meters for each pedestal. There would be a very large capital cost to installing all those meters and they have made the decision not to do it.

Consider the airlines, how are they going to "meter" the weight of passengers? Back in the day wen airline tickets were purchased at the ticket counter, it would have been easy to have a scale in front of the counter. Now, tickets are purchased ahead of time. How is the airline to know what the weight of the passenger is? My guess is that to do practical and marketing reasons, the airlines have considered it but never found a way to make it work.

I'll have to ask my son who works as a financial analyst for AA in the flight operations area.

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It could be a logistical reason or it could be the simple matter of airlines do not want to know what everyone weighs. It allows them to have a fixed "cost" when it comes to the weight of the airplane. Everyone weighs 190 pounds and their bags all weigh 25. Itmakes it MUCH easier to account for and forecast costs as it relates to weight. Even when ordering aircraft, they know the weight of each passenger occupying each seat. And then they can determine costs based on that weight. And the manufacturer builds the airplane based on a standard weight. And figures its useful load based on those standard weights. So it permeates the entire industry from the beginning of the product to the end product. It would not be advantageous in any way to do away with standard weights.

Baker said:

It could be a logistical reason or it could be the simple matter of airlines do not want to know what everyone weighs. It allows them to have a fixed "cost" when it comes to the weight of the airplane. Everyone weighs 190 pounds and their bags all weigh 25. Itmakes it MUCH easier to account for and forecast costs as it relates to weight. Even when ordering aircraft, they know the weight of each passenger occupying each seat. And then they can determine costs based on that weight. And the manufacturer builds the airplane based on a standard weight. And figures its useful load based on those standard weights. So it permeates the entire industry from the beginning of the product to the end product. It would not be advantageous in any way to do away with standard weights.

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True, but if the airlines actually weighed each passenger, they would know exactly how the average passenger weighed instead of making guesses.

Back in the day when I had to do weight and balance calculations for a little C172, I believe the FAA "average" adult weight was 175lbs. I would hope they have either tossed that or adjusted it upwards. The average weight of my adult patients has to be closer to 200lbs.

psneeld said:

Some liveaboards are a blessing to a marina...and the marina often rewards them for it...other liveaboards are a drain.

Kinda like all sectors of society...unfortunately not all people in positions of marina leadership are capable of dealing with the variations of liveaboards....or corporate ties their hands.

That can be applied to all patrons, but liveaboards often magnify the variations.

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It's like so many things in life where the majority good suffer for the actions of the few bad. In the case of liveaboards, it's so dependent on marina management but then so are all the slip holders. You show some discretion in selection of slip holders and in liveaboards you allow. You have rules that you enforce. Essentially, you manage. Getting rid of a problem can be very difficult.

You are correct about corporate because companies tend to not want to allow discretion but have everything in black and white with no gray.

The laws governing eviction of a boat are very complicated and vary from state to state. Is it a storage agreement? (Some marinas contend it is). Is it covered under state law or maritime law? (In some cases it's been determined that boats just registered in a state are controlled by state law and those documented by maritime law so different for two boats in the same marina). What do you do with an evicted boat?

Most marinas contend it's a commercial lease, not residential, to avoid the more stringent requirements for residential evictions.

Then you get to the case of a liveaboard who never moves their boat. Courts have ruled that to be a residential lease. One marina went through the process of eviction to get the entire thing dismissed because while their contract said a five day notice and that would be fine for commercial leases, the state residential law said it must be seven days.

It's easy to tell someone they must leave, must vacate their slip, but far more complicated if they just don't do so. The worse a marina slip renter is the harder it will often be to get rid of them.

I believe good liveaboards are a great asset to a marina while bad ones can ruin a marina environment.

dhays said:

True, but if the airlines actually weighed each passenger, they would know exactly how the average passenger weighed instead of making guesses.

Back in the day when I had to do weight and balance calculations for a little C172, I believe the FAA "average" adult weight was 175lbs. I would hope they have either tossed that or adjusted it upwards. The average weight of my adult patients has to be closer to 200lbs.

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I don't know if it's still the same but years ago traveling in Puerto Rico, the airlines required your weight as they were using small planes and balanced the load. Also, I flew one time when the passengers must have been an exceptionally heavy group with heavy luggage as they said they had to leave a few pieces behind due to the weight on the plane.

Into the late 90s, I think the FAA used 165 pounds for the average passenger....at least that is the number I remember...it is close for sure.

Well, after a bunch of accidents where the passengers were well over that number, the FAA made a bunch of suggestions to improve safety, raising that average weight number.

Jeepers. I wish I was 190lbs again...

psneeld said:

Into the late 90s, I think the FAA used 165 pounds for the average passenger....at least that is the number I remember...it is close for sure.

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I likely am remembering wrong. The "standard adult" weight likely was lower than the 175 number I had. Maybe 150?

I don't remember if my memory was the first thing to do...

I dont remember the exact number...but it was way below the average American adult average...rhus the crashes and ultimate change in legislation.

Liveaboard exist for a reason: additional "free" security to the marina when nobody is around.
On my marina we pay electricity by meter and a substantial amount of money for the "liveaboard" status.
So every time you cross path with a liveaboard fellow on your marina salute nicely.. that could be the guy who save your boat for a bilge pump failure or tight your lines under a storm due snubber failure when you or all marina staff are away.

Or they could be the ones tbat abuse evey nook and cranny of the marina and worse.

Fortunately I havent come across the worst, just a few that pushed limits.

Like everything in life, each situation is different and deserve what they have earned.

Calling out the bad ones can only help the majority of good ones.

psneeld said:

I dont remember the exact number...but it was way below the average American adult average...rhus the crashes and ultimate change in legislation.

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One other place weight estimates really became an issue and was discovered after some failure and a crash or two-Elevators. They had weight limits but people look at the passenger limits and basing them on average sized people and an equal mix of men and women doesn't work.

For an average to be a useful measure, you need a large sample size. On a very small plane or an elevator, where only 5 or 6 people are the sample, a couple of statistical outliers can really skew things substantially. There are enough people on a commercial airliner that the average will be a perfectly accceptable approximation. All the airline cares about is number of seats, as every empty seat is an oportunity cost. Some airlines do charge an "obesity surcharge" but its not for weight reasons..its because if you don't fit in your seat, they can't sell the seat next to you....so its really because an obese person takes up too much space, not that they weigh too much.

It was interesting that the OP equated marina and airline pricing and then made the observation that rates were going up and occupancy was going down. Airlines are the originators and masters of variable pricing because empty seats cost so much.

Many electric utilities have switched to "time of use rates". If you're old enough, you probably remember when the cost of a phone call was based on what time of day the call was made. We are heading that way for electricy pricing, as demand is so high during the day and so low at night, and increasing production is expensive. I believe this will eventually drive the battery industry to develop battery banks for houses that will be charged during off peak hours. Many areas have "smart grid" technology that allows the electric utility to reach into your house and adjust your thermostat, or the lighting demand of a large factory. Since boats already have batteries and inverters, they'll be perfect customers for time of use rates.

oh...and not all MBA's are bad. A good MBA knows what he doesn't know, and will seek out subject matter experts when needed, listen to the employees opinions, and more importantly, customer feedback.